Festools for cabinetmaking

[MacMitch]

I am about to start building a bunch of cabinets for my shop business and home. I am in the market for good tools to make this work easier and better quality.

I am working on a shop (14' x 20'), in the basement I finished a few years ago. I have a 15' x 12' room off the shop room, with solid metal shelving & wall mounted steel wood supports. I use the smaller room for storage of wood, parts... In the shop I have a Drill Press, Small 2HP General Table Saw, the smaller INCA band saw, small Hammer workbench, wall hanging board (like peg board but much stronger), a decent assortment of powered and hand tools, clamps, measuring devices, work support.. I had the shop wired for 120/240 with its own breaker box. I have an old Dewalt 12" chop/mitre saw & stand- 14 years old & has seen much better days.

Festools: MFT/3, TS 55 EQ, OF 1400 EQ Router, CT 22 Mobile dust Extractor, a few clamps, hoses, guides, accessories... I also made a cutting table with: 3/4 plywood, solid wood edge frame (to place clamps on), foam board cover, removable water pipe base ( not as easy to move around as I had hoped ;-) ).

I spent the last 10 years working on construction projects for home & business, including building & rebuilding... a building for my business. Now I want to embark on cabinet making and more finished carpentry projects. I am about to invest in one of the Festool Drills and I have been kicking around the idea of buying a Domino and or Kapex. Having been construction oriented for 10 years I have sort of lived & died with the "portable" chop/mitre saw and have been threatening to buy a better sliding saw for several years. I was waiting to get a look at the Kapex before buying anything. I'm just not sure I need that nice a saw for the work I now have planned. I am thinking I will be doing more cutting with the TS 55, table saw & band saw, jig saw.. for the work I have planned.

The cabinets I plan to make out of decent, not great, plywood with solid wood edging/frames. I have been thinking about pocket hole joinery construction but I am wondering if it would be easier/better to join with a Domino? My buddy/coach who actually builds furniture and more finished projects is "old school" and does most of his work on a table saw, SawStop. My buddy thinks the Domino is a gimmick. He thinks I should buy a planner for hard wood board making. I don't see me building much out of solid wood in the near future though, and I can do without all the dust. I would rather buy a more limited quantity of finished solid wood, like hard pine and oak and just use it for edging/frames around plywood. I have done some work with MFD and would rather use plywood, although I am researching XDPE plastic for some dog housing projects.

Maybe some of you have some thoughts on how to construct cabinets like the ones I envision? Maybe I am barking up a few wrong trees?....

 

[davee]

The cabinets I plan to make out of decent, not great, plywood with solid wood edging/frames. I have been thinking about pocket hole joinery construction but I am wondering if it would be easier/better to join with a Domino? My buddy/coach who actually builds furniture and more finished projects is "old school" and does most of his work on a table saw, SawStop. My buddy thinks the Domino is a gimmick.

The Domino is great for making cabinets and definitely not a gimmick.  If you should purchase one, you might have your buddy stop by and give it a try as he might like it as well!  I've built quite a bit of furniture "old school", thoroughly enjoying making mortice and tenon joints.  However, I haven't made one since I purchased the Domino!  I've used it on quite a few cabinet and furniture projects.

 

[Sparktrician]

Pocket hole joinery and the Domino tool have a definite place in cabinetmaking.  There's no single method that's better than any other.  Each has its respective place.  If you're doing cabinet floors and toekicks, sometimes the pocket hole techniques are better in a production environment.  The Domino adds in better alignment capabilities and significant strength improvements.  There are times when the combination of both makes the best sense in custom cabinetmaking.  If you're going to get serious about cabinetmaking, I'd suggest that it might be to your benefit to make several test cabinets using the various techniques and materials you could use to get an idea of how each adds to the overall design of your work, and note also the time needed to accomplish the end result which will aid you in your pricing efforts.  If you're going to compete against the large factories, you will have to differentiate yourself by quality and/or price to make your own market.  If you intend to do custom cabinetry, I'd suggest that you will need to use the better cuts of hardwood, and perhaps Baltic birch for consistent quality, stability and ease of machining.  All of these factors will feed into your pricing strategy and determine your price point.  Since you will be planning on working out of your basement, you'll need tools that you can count on for accuracy of cutting and assembly, and the Festool line lends itself well to planned projects.  I wouldn't anticipate seeing an Altendorf F45 in your basement, for example, so the TS55 system would be a good choice, along with the LR32 system for full-drilling or half-drilling 32mm system holes for assembly and adjustable shelving in concert with an OF1400 router.  The options are limitless (except for the NAINA stigma), so check them out thoroughly and choose wisely.  Good luck!  

[smile]

 

[kfitzsimons]

I purchased a Domino this summer and I've used it for a cherry (mostly solid wood) TV cabinet and some shop cabinets made of 3/4" Melamine. All assembled with the Domino. A huge advantage of the Domino is that you can pre-assemble the cabinet before gluing it up.  It's great to confirm sizing and fit.  There's not a quicker, more solid way of assembly. Much better than a plate joiner. You can also custom size dominoes to fit thinner stock.
For your shop cabinets, consider using Melamine sheets instead of plywood. They look nice, can be edged in solid wood or iron-on vinyl edging, and are very easy to keep clean. They are heavy though. I again used my Domino to mount them to the wall. I mounted a piece of 1x4 flat against the shop wall. Before mounting it, I cut slots for large dominoes in the top edge and put the dominoes in unglued. Then I cut slots for the dominoes in the top, inside edge of my cabinet. (I didn't put a back on the cabinet as the wall acts as a back.) Then I just hung the cabinet over the 1x4 with the dominoes holding the cabinet to the wall.
The Domino is expensive, but it's really worth it. One more use: I cut some slots for dominoes too deep in the side of a Melamine wall cabinet. The cutter came through the sides. I just let the dominoes come to the edge of the cabinet and it looks pretty nice.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

I'm not pretending to be a cabinetmaker, though I have put together a few dozen over the years, mainly utility cabinets and a few high end Arts and Crafts pieces.  I have, though, made many thousands of mortises and tenons in furniture projects. 

I think the best way to view the Domino is sort of a middle of the road view.  It is definitely not a gimmick.  You can make extremely sturdy stuff very quickly.  If you value your time at all, it will pay for itself quickly.  On the other hand, I don't see it as a complete replacement for old school joinery.  I do both.  For cabinets, I don't see much of anything a Domino can't do.

If I were deciding between a Domino and a Kapex, I would lean toward the Domi.  The Domino is unique and has tremendous time saving payback.  The Kapex is a superb miter saw, but it just does what other miter saws do, a little better.  In the interests of full disclosure, I have both and they are great.

If you can swing it, take the Festool cabinet class.  You learn a lot, meet interesting people, and have a great time.

 

[Ken Nagrod]

For your shop cabinets, consider using Melamine sheets instead of plywood

Why not just get the same laminate exterior (Melamine w/o the particle board core) with a plywood core, 4 x 8 sheets or larger?
I first came across this material when working at a cabinet/custom furniture shop years ago.  I'm not sure where MacMitch is located, but we'd order our sheets from Fessenden Hall in Pennsauken, NJ.

 

[grobin]

I am building bookcases with open frame construction out of Lyptus with plywood shelves that are removable.  I have limited electricity in my shop and can't get more put in. 

I have a small band saw, a TS55 with the rails and extensions, a couple of routers and a router table with the INCRA 25" fence, a PS300 jig saw, a domino and a CT mini.  I don't see any need for a table saw at all.  My next purchase will either be a better workbench or router table followed by a 1400.

I have used biscuit joiners and find them to be less than great.  They are good for positioning pieces—particularly plywood—but add little strength to the joint.  I had done some conventional M&T but it was just too slow.  I got the Domino and things sped up considerably.

I have been looking at miter saws for about a year, but as I don't cut a lot of molding they aren't a priority right now.  I have done some detailed examination of the Milwaukee 6955-20, the Kapex, Bosch GCM12SD, and Jet JMS-12SCMS.  Except for the Bosch I have used them on small projects, the Bosch I got to play with at a wood working show.  If I was buying today I would buy the Milwaukee (I really like the digital readout) or the Bosch (the glide mechanism doesn't get dust in it and works smoother than the rails do).  The Kapex fence limits angle of cut and it has a nasty habit of kicking back short pieces (mentioned on this board and others).  The Jet is a good saw and cheaper than the others but not really distinguished.  You will need to use your CT with any of these.  BTW the Milwaukee and the Bosch don't have those gimmick lasers, a big advantage.  But I have a Nobex 180 miter box and saw and that does it for the little I need a miter saw for right now.  Any of these miter saws is big heavy and needs a dedicated table IMHO.

So if I were in your shoes I would get a Domino, and a good router table with the large INCRA fence and a router to go in it.  The Milwaukee is a great in table router where the 1400 has no available lifts or mounting plates in NA.  Woodcraft has had the Freud 3300 on blow out—don't know if it still is—and it is also a good router for table use.

As for a joiner/plainer or a large drum sander they aren't really much use with plywood.  I use hand planes for what cleanup and flattening I do so I see no need for a plainer or joiner.

 

[Ken Nagrod]

The lasers on miter saws aren't gimmicky.  Especially the ones that turn on without the need for blade rotation.  If you've cut enough crown molding or other moldings with intricate profiles, you'll definitely appreciate seeing your cut line when you can't scribe or transfer it because of the profile.  It's an aid, not a crutch.

The digital readout on the Milwaukee is for miter only, not bevel.  The Hitachi has both, but still, I don't find those features to be selling points over the Kapex, Bosch or Makita.  [2cents]

 

[grobin]

I admit to not cutting much crown molding.  I find that the laser tends to obscure the scribed line, but I can see where, in some cases, it could be an OK aid.

 

[MacMitch]

Thanks for all the great replies,
I run a dog park & dog training business on 12 acres. We raise & train German Shepherds & other large & small breeds of dogs to do obedience, tracking/scent work and protection. We do a sport called Schutzhund and train police K9 units. The dog training building I built and the basement I finished, including my shop, will be getting the new cabinets. My shop is right off of a room I am finishing to house my working dogs in. We have  7 GSD's ourselves and have another 6-12 large breed dogs around on most days. These dogs are very physical and get trained indoors regularly. Although we certainly would not plan to be "slinging" these dogs around the cabinets I am sure it will happen sooner or later. The training building will be getting a rubber floor soon so we can do more work indoors. We are an off leash park so we have big dogs running around playing all the time.

I have no plans to do professional work, although we may want to make dog enclosures for sale. Actually I am trying to talk a buddy into making them and selling them to us. These enclosures are something like cabinets, structure wise. The dog houses can not be wood though as the dogs I raise will destroy anything wood they are left in. We are thinking about XDPE plastic for the enclosures. They use this plastic for horse stalls and claim horses can not chew or kick through it. Most dog kennels or crates for this type dog are made of metal. I have seen dogs of this type chew right through chain link, especially if it is not the heavier gauge. XDPE is usually welded with heat guns, sort of like metal is welded. We may weld box frames of XDPE, sort of like cabinet carcasses, and screw/bolt lighter weight material to the frames. These boxes need to be very tough but light too, as they may be moved around in buildings or in and out of vehicles. Good metal crates/boxes for these dogs start at around $1000 and go up to several thousand, made of materials like anodized aluminum. I was wondering if anyone on this forum has experience building with XDPE or other plastics?

 

[grobin]

I have done a very little with starboard, its a very tough fairly light plastic generally used in marine applications.  A similar material is seaboard which is cheaper and the couple of folks I know that have used it say its as good or better. 

I hope that this helps.

BTW how do the dogs react to the noise? My folks and I used to train labs for field trial work and they were OK but liked to "sing along".

 

[MacMitch]

I bookmarked both of those plastics. They look like some form of enhanced HDPE, but maybe not.

How did you join/attach this material to your project?

Well the noise when we are doing bite work is deafening, but since they are making the noise they do not notice it.
We do group howls with the whole pack, our dogs, the daycare, boarding, visiting dogs... regularly. A good group howl always seems to settle them down.

 

[tbellemare]

I have done some work with HDPE, UHMW, acrylic, and various phenolics. I've never seen XDPE. Is that HDPE on steroids?

I haven't tried to weld any of the above except acrylic. To weld acrylic, you use a solvent and it's quick and easy with a syringe. I would think there's a solvent that would weld HDPE and or UHMW as well, I just haven't tried it. I've always used fasteners like working with wood.

Tom

 

[grobin]

I used a simple rebate and then a glue that they recommend.  I also did some dado work and both went fine.  I have seen some done with mitered edges but don't know how it was done.  If I was doing it to day I would run a couple of trials with my Domino and the recommended glue; heck I might even try a drawbore joint.

As for the noise, the dogs seemed to enjoy it but the neighbors complained if I worked much after 20:00.

 

[tbellemare]

Gerald:

Is the glue, of which you write, a glue or is it a solvent?

I'd like to experiment with whatever you're using. Can you please give me a lead?

I know the solvent that I use for acrylic is like welding and I prefer that type of joint to a mechanical fastener joint because any fastener type joint makes point (or small area) loads. When I fuse an entire joint, it's as strong as the original material.

Thanks,

Tom

 

[grobin]

Tom I am not entirely sure as I used the stuff some years ago to help a friend replace a cabinet on his boat that was badly damaged in a fire.  I used the stuff I got from Jamestown Distributors; at the time they didn't want to deal with individuals and I went through a friend at a marina. Frankly I think that he would have been better served with teak but he wanted better durability due to the location of the cabinet.  I don't remember too much about the job except that it went well.

 

[fshanno]

I put cases together using Dominoes and pocket holes and only glue in the mortises.  I mostly use prefinished birch ply for cases.  Glue squeeze out is a problem.  It's not a super great plywood structurally but it is domestic and it looks beautiful and it's light weight (relatively) and a joy to work with.  Also it's fairly bright in color.  It seems to work well with almost any shade of hardwood or PVC edge banding.  The contrast is usually very nice.  To match I use a prefinished light maple edge banding which seems match the birch better than birch edge banding, go figure.  I'm told you can't beat the UV finish the factory puts on.

 

[MacMitch]

Right Tom HDPE, the UV resistant form, not XDPE, my bad,
I'm new to the stuff and actually hoping a friend will end up making most of the dog "boxes". He has been making dog crates & kennels professionally from various metals. For the moment I am serving as support. My goal is to get a stronger, tougher, lighter, better, place to keep dogs. The dog housing project, of course, is different than the actual cabinet making projects I have. I am considering making table tops and the inside of cabinet frames from HDPE though.

I was not aware there was a may to chemically bond materials like HDPE. Do you have any links or other information to offer regarding these chemicals? It was my understanding that HDPE was designed to be chemically resistant and thus fought off glues & chemicals.

 

[tbellemare]

I also am not aware of a way to chemically bond HDPE or UHMW. I use mechanical fastening for them.

I use a solvent for acrylic and the seam, if done properly, pretty much disappears.

I'll do some research and see what I can find out.

HDPE and UHMW can be pretty heavy. I would think a proper aluminum frame would be about as light as you can get for the strength. That's how modern airplanes are generally made. You might have to make some "lightening" holes once you worked out the structure and how to attach things.

Tom

 

[tbellemare]

OK, I just spoke with one of my plastic suppliers.

There are currently no solvents available for HDPE, UHMW, or other polyethylenes, apparently. They can be "welded" together using a special plastic welding machine and process that involves really concentrated heat and a welding rod of the same material.

I think I'll stick with mechanical fastening methods...

Tom