Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!

[squall_line]

I wish Festool made a fairly priced tool.

Fairness is in the wallet of the consumer.  Obviously they're priced as a premium tool and most of what Festool makes justifies the price.  I can't necessarily justify the price for my budget, but if I were a professional making money with my tools, I would say that much of their lineup is fairly priced for the quality and warranty.  My Makita drills weren't that much cheaper than my Festool drills, the only difference is that my Makita batteries can also be used in a leaf blower and weed trimmer and were easier to find in a big box store.

Plenty of people have their exception list for this; I'm not going to bother openly listing mine on a Festool website.

 

[AlexThePalex]

I wish Festool made a fairly priced tool.

This is kinda funny as Festool makes almost only "fairly priced" tools.

As in, their prices are mostly "cost+" instead of "what the market can bear". Like the normal market pricing strategies dictate.

They definitely dot not make tools which are cheap though. In any definition of the word.

The Festool CS70 full set used to cost €3200.

Then UK dealers went to court over Festool's price fixing.

After the judgement in their favour some dealers would sell the full set as low as €2400.

Sure, fair.

 

[Spandex]

The Festool CS70 full set used to cost €3200.

Then UK dealers went to court over Festool's price fixing.

After the judgement in their favour some dealers would sell the full set as low as €2400.

Sure, fair.

The only thing that price difference shows is that Festool (the retailer, not the manufacturer) was, and still is, charging a massive markup on the wholesale/manufacturer price compared to what other retailers are able or willing to do.

Forcing a dealer to sell for a specific price (presumably the same price Festool was retailing the tool for) isn't anything to do with the fairness of the price for any given tool, only the fairness of their business to business practices. I'm not defending those business practices at all, but it's a separate issue.

 

[AlexThePalex]

The only thing that price difference shows is that Festool (the retailer, not the manufacturer) was, and still is, charging a massive markup on the wholesale/manufacturer price compared to what other retailers are able or willing to do.

What's the difference between Festool The Retailer and Festool The Manufacturer?  [huh]

 

[Spandex]

What's the difference between Festool The Retailer and Festool The Manufacturer?  [huh]

In basic terms, the manufacturer sells to retailers and the retailer sells to the public. Clearly the wholesale price offered to retailers is low enough to support fairly large discounts over the price Festools online store charges (because retailers are almost always significantly cheaper), so once Festool were prevented from price fixing, that difference was made clear.

Some companies with both a wholesale and retail element will actually keep the two entities legally separate for regulatory simplicity, although I have no idea if Festool do that. But conceptually they are separate, in that Festool the manufacturer will supply Festool the retailer AND all of the third party retailers at a wholesale price, and then they’re all (now) free to set their own markup.

 

[Dr. P. Venkman]

I can’t speak to the rest of the world, but in the US, Festool doesn’t sell direct to the consumer. Except for the recon site and spare parts, you have to go through a dealer.

Here, manufacturers that also have a retail sales operation and sell to the public at full MSRP do so (in part) because they don’t want to undercut and anger their dealers. The dealers play a vital role in marketing and distribution, and if the manufacturer sold for less, the retailers’ sales would drop, and they would stop carrying the product. No manufacturer wants that.

Festool also still practices resale price maintenance here (what’s been called price fixing in this thread). It’s a complicated relationship to manage, and some retailers like it better than others, but that’s also a strategy largely designed to protect dealers. By not allowing an online-only dealer or a massive retail operation to undercut the pricing of smaller, more service-oriented stores, those smaller stores are somewhat protected. It could certainly be seen as anti-competitive, but it also keeps the tools on the shelves of the small, knowledgeable stores that help people learn about the products.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

"Fair" is such a relative term. Fair to whom?
It is pretty well established that guys who use the tools to make money are not particularly "price sensitive". This is because the improved performance makes money, so the cost will come back to you over time, then become profitable after that. Then there is the 3 year warranty, this is not voided if you use them in a commercial fashion. That is their intended market.

Of course you could lie or withhold the truth, but with most of the other tool brands, if they knew you were using them in that way, you might not see it work out so well. Some even say so in a disclaimer.

"Fair" also applies to the people who make and sell those tools too. Don't they deserve to make a Dollar, Euro, Pound, whatever, too?
I have always wondered where the margins were, in this case. Whether all of the money went to the manufacturer (and the employees) or if the "wholesale" price to the dealers left some meat on the bone for them as the retailer?

I use mine for my living, so I am probably at least somewhat biased, but I would be in quite a pickle without the tools that I have become dependent upon. The DF500, TS55, RO sanders, and the MFT system are invaluable to my work. The other products that I have acquired along with them have integrated so well as part of the system, that it just makes sense.
I do have tools from other brands. As a surprise to some, they are things that Festool offers too, in some cases.
I have "extra" routers, a Dewalt mitersaw, and my drills/impacts are Makita.

 

[Spandex]

I can’t speak to the rest of the world, but in the US, Festool doesn’t sell direct to the consumer. Except for the recon site and spare parts, you have to go through a dealer.

Alex mentioned a court case on this side of the pond, where Festool do have a retail operation.

I presume (without being familiar with the details of the case) that Festool were somehow preventing or dissuading their third party retailers from selling below the price they themselves were charging consumers on their direct retail site, which would fall foul of competition laws here.

I have to say, I don’t really understand who is buying direct from Festool over here. The prices are eye-watering compared to almost all of their ‘dealers’ and I’m not sure what you gain from going direct. Maybe they don’t need to sell much to cover the cost of running the retail portion of the site.

 

[AlexThePalex]

I can’t speak to the rest of the world, but in the US, Festool doesn’t sell direct to the consumer. Except for the recon site and spare parts, you have to go through a dealer.

Alex mentioned a court case on this side of the pond, where Festool do have a retail operation.

They don't have a retail operation here themselves and I never said so. Festool sells exclusively through dealers. Their own dealers took them to court because they got fed up with Festool's illegal leash.

And that's why I don't understand this split personality thing of Festool The Retailer and Festool The Manufacturer  Spandex talks about.  There is only one.

 

[Spandex]

I assumed the price and ‘purchase’ option on the Festool site meant they were selling themselves.

Either way though, my point was that the price difference pre and post court case doesn’t means festools prices aren’t ‘fair’, it just means their business practices weren’t legal.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I wish Festool made a usable Systainer inlay for the ETS EC 125.. There is so much unused space that easily could be used for storing sandpaper in an organized way.

That one sure is a disappointment compared to some others, like the MFK700. Multiple bases, dust fittings, edge guides, etc. but there aren't many accessories to that sander to fit in there. A spot for the 150 pad would be cool, but I doubt that they officially recognize that modification.

 

[Spandex]

And the effect is that Festool -dealerships- are effectively extinct now as they are not able to compete with online stores. Good luck getting your accessory or spare part when you need it

I live near (ish) quite a few Festool retailers that carry a very decent range of accessories - I’ve never asked about ‘spare parts’, but did dealers carry those before the court case? One thing I can guarantee though, is that my local shops that don’t also have an online store are ridiculously expensive compared to those that do. But if I needed something fast, maybe the price would be acceptable.

At the end of the day, the world has changed, and most shops that don’t also sell online will struggle if they sell stuff that’s easily shipped and widely available, like tools. I guess whether you consider the service as ‘worse’ is fairly subjective. As much as I like wandering round my local ‘nice’ tool shops, looking at the shiny toys, I don’t really want to have a conversation with them about my purchases. I prefer to do my research, make my decision and buy it. I get that others are different (I see plenty of people bending the ear of the dealer while I’m browsing), but for me I like my bricks and mortar shopping to have the same amount of human interaction as my internet shopping… [wink]

 

[Onn]

I wish festool made a self clamping domino so I don’t have to struggle with clamps

 

[notenoughcash]

the domino KD fixings?

 

[Kev]

Wife ...

 

[notenoughcash]

Wife ...

unlimeted free festool tools, goodies and swag?  it would cost more than usual to run though and is possibly would NANIA

 

[AlexThePalex]

Wife ...

Man, I knew Festool was expensive, but this would take the cake .....

 

[squall_line]

I wish festool made a self clamping domino so I don’t have to struggle with clamps

the domino KD fixings?

The only issue with the current knockdown fixings are the extra hole needed to secure the fitting.  With the XL, this is just another 14mm mortise, with the 500 it's a separate round drilled hole.

Because of the shape of the mortise and tenon, I don't think you'd be able to get a self-clamping domino akin to the Lamello Tenso; the mortise would need to be trapezoidal rather than rectangular, or it would just pull itself back out.

I suppose another option would be the expanding Domino XL connectors, with a click-and-hold bit added on the end, similar to the Lamello Tenso.  It might be pretty time-consuming to expand all of those connectors and get them just the right snug-ness, but I'm not an engineer/product tester, so I may be way off base.

 

[ModBjnry]

Cordless 18v OF1010 to compete with the 18v routers from every major manufacturer.

Cordless 36v TS60 track saw.

 

[luvmytoolz]

I would love to see a 190mm PRECISIO saw but with a 1.5-2HP induction motor instead of a brushed motor, would be fantastic for box making! After using induction motor powered saws it just ruins you for brushed motors!