Finishing Cabinets with and HPLV set up ?

fesfrank

Member
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
70
I am a carpenter and Im doing a cabinet job.  I have never painted before and the quotes that im getting are ridiculous.  I wanted to learn how to paint cabinets professionally and I was going to get an HPLV set up to spray them with lacquer.  I would like to do all of my finishing from now on if I can get it right.  I'm willing to buy a new set up but I was wondering what one to get.  Can I run a spray gun with my Porter Cable pancake compressor, or do
I need the provided unit with the machine.  The gun I was told to buy is the Binks SV100 (cup gun).  Any input would help me, Im kind of going into this blind and would like some direction.  Thanks for your time.
 
I've gotten my spray equipment from Jeff Jewitt at homesteadfinishing.com (the url may have changed but searching for 'homesteadfinishing' should get you to his store.  Give him a call and he'll set you up with advice and equipment in the price range you can/want to afford.

You can run some HVLP guns off a pancake compressor.  The biggest factor is how large a surface you have to cover without stopping.  Once you start spraying a surface, you need to keep going to maintain the smooth finish.  If the cabinets have a large countertop surface that needs to be sprayed, you probably want a better/larger/higher capacity compressor than a pancake.
 
On a related note, I have two guns: a  Wagner HVLP conversion gun and an Asturo #5008WBAsturo 5008WB gun as well. Both work well. I run mine off a mid-sized portable compressor (1.5 hp 27 GAL).  As Tim pointed out, you can run guns off pancake compressors but your airflow for spraying will be interrupted as you drain the tank and the compressor cycles on to refill.

There's a similar discussion over at TFT
 
Christopher Fitch said:
you can run guns off pancake compressors but your airflow for spraying will be interrupted as you drain the tank and the compressor cycles on to refill.

I forgot to mention.  Some folks have somewhat of a work around by using a 10 or 20 gallon storage tank.  This is only somewhat of a workaround because this lets you spray longer without stopping but with a small compressor like a pancake, it means you have to wait for the compressor to refill.  Don't go to big on the extra air tank as small compressors are generally not designed to run for much more than a few minutes at a time.  Having them cycle on for much longer will significantly cut lifespan.
 
I am purchasing my first spray setup.  I considered using my twin-tank Emglo nailer compressor rated for 4.1 CFM @90 PSI, but elected to go with a cast iron pump, 2HP belt drive with 26 gallon vertical tank.  It will last longer, be quieter and I will have no worries about capacity (7.1 CFM @90).  I would generally stay clear from oil-less compressors from a durability standpoint.

There appears to be a number of good guns capable of good results, reasonably priced, according to reviews and forms I have read.  You can get a kit including the gun, regulator and 2-3 tips for under $300.  These guns have the flexibility to convert the tips to shoot a variety of media from stain up to latex.  To be able to shoot latex effectively with a turbine unit, you need more pressure, which translates into cost.  While I have seen reviews on some 2-3 stage turbine units shooting heavier media, I opted for the power of a compresor setup.  Also, if you want more capacity, the compressor guns are available to be converted to a pressure-pot setup where you can have 2 quarts or more in a separate vessel connected to the gun with a hose.  This allows the gun to be smaller, since it does not have a cup, and allows the gun to spray upside-down.  You can option the guns with a disposable cup system by 3M PPS or Devilbiss, which minimizes cleanup.  I think the flexibility and more options were key in my decision making process.  With my $400 compressor, my setup will be ultimately more than a turbine system, but now I have a real air compressor for my shop when I am not spraying.

Again, I am new to this, but these are the things I have learned in my research recently

 
I just got my first spray setup going back in January.  After much research, and on a limited budget, I went the Asturo WB from Spraygunworld, with the DeKups disposable liners.  They have a load of info on their site that was helpful.  It's a gravity cup gun.  I decided on it based on ease of use, quick clean up, and ability to spray waterbased finishes.  I almost got the Astro Pneumatic QUL which is cheaper, but decided on the better quality and lower cfm of the Asturo.  I have been very pleased with that decision.

I ran the gun for a while on a Ridgid 6gal, ~5cfm compressor but it cycled more frequently than I would like.  On larger fridge panels or counter tops for a built in (I build cabinets as well) it would run low on air before I completed the panel.  It was tricky not to get dry spray toward the end of the panel.
Eventually I found a great deal on a 60 gal compressor and it works soooooo much better, with less cycling, and plenty off air for the any task.

My friend has an Accuspray 4stage turbine with the #10 gun, and it won't spray the higher viscosity liquids like latex.  He's been spraying for years with several different guns, mostly all with turbines, and he really likes my gravity gun.  He likes the balance of it versus his cup gun.  And he really likes the disposable liner system, which is very handy when I spray conversion varnish.  The liners save lots of time on clean up and solvent.  I almost went with a turbine for the portability of it, but I'm glad I didn't.  The compressor has other uses as well, but it will allow the gun to spray anything I want it to.

Make sure that you consider the ventilation aspects of spraying.  Having a good exhaust fan is a must for safety.

Check out Jerry Work's website.  http://www.jerrywork.com/  He did a review of Target finishes, but covered different spray setups, guns, etc.  That was extremely helpful to me in making the decisions I did.

I second the advice the others have given here.  It's the same things I learned when I did my research, now neatly tucked into one thread.  I have really enjoyed being able to finish my own projects, and control the quality of the final thing that customers see -- the finish.

Hope this has been helpful.

Joe
 
Joe,

Its good to hear that you had good luck with your compressor-gun setup.  I too have been looking at the Asturo WB.  Did you get the kit with all of the tips?  Have you run latex and if yes, what setup worked for you (ie tip sizes, %thinning)?  Did you run any special filters?

 
Here's what the gun came with and what I use it for:  1.3 tip for stains, 1.8 for conversion varnish, laquer, and vinyl sealer (all the clears), 2.5 for latex.  I haven't actually tried the gun with latex yet, but I wanted that flexibility.  I'm sure it would have to be thinned.

I use a disposable filter at the gun, just before the regulator.  It's cheap, and it works for me.  It does make the gun a bit longer, but I rarely spray inside a box so it doesn't matter much.

I also run all the finishes thru a fine mesh cone filter as I'm loading the cup.  Not sure which "filter" you're refrring to.

At risk of seeming a novice, but for fesfrank's benefit.... when I first got the gun and was getting inconsistent results, I learned that the air regulator needs to be set with the trigger pulled and air flowing.  This is one tidbit of info that I NEVER came across in doing all my reading.  Makes a huge difference in fan pattern, and how finishes lay down, etc.

I really like the WB.  It has three screws to control air volume, pattern width, and fluid delivery.  Not all guns come with three adjustments.  The one thing I was disappointed in was the lack of a manual in the gun kit.  My friend says sprayguns are like motorcycles--doesn't matter which bike all the handles/levers/etc do the same thing.  If you're confused you don't need to be on one.  Fortunately for me, my friend is willing and has taught me a lot about spraying. 

When I first started practicing with the gun, I sprayed a bunch of scrap pieces, playing with the different adjustments, learning what each did, and how it effected the results.  For narrow pieces, I'd make the fan pattern smaller and reduce the fluid delivery (small part = less finish).  For large panels I'd widen the pattern, increase the fluid, and make sure to overlap each pass so as to get a smooth coat.  I used a mil thickness gauge for a while until I could "see" enough material being sprayed.  I know this is pretty basic, but it was important for me to figure it out.  Fesfrank says he's never done this, so I hope my newbie experience is helpful as he gets started.

Joe
 
For what it is worth, I chased several different guns, types of finish etc.  My success was never all that great until I stumbled upon an ML Campbell distributor's technical rep at a trade show.  ML Campbell only sells to distributors who are committed enough to put a technical specialist on staff.  They try not to attract the "Grandpa Builds a Birdhouse" type of customer who buys things in pints and quarts.  These guys are more the gallon and 5 gallon type of quantity operations.  Most also handle spray guns and will help you find something that fits your needs.  To be honest, I don't even check the competition on pricing as this technical support is very valuable to me.  They do periodically hold training session.  The strange thing is that this company is owned by Sherwin Williams.  Check out the ML Campbell web site to see who services your area
 
Part of my background is that I grew up in a body shop where we would spray paint about anything imaginable professionally. It started out as a body shop but due to popular demand my father expanded into other branches as well, industrial applications like machinery and air ducts, building sidings, and furniture. Lots of furniture. So I learned to work with spray equipment from a very young age and I would be still doing this if my father's company wouldn't have gone out of business shortly before I was old enough to take over. 

As to the choice of what equipment to get, I was spoiled of course. We had loads of it, and the best of the best. We had a 3500 liter compressor. Lots of hand spray guns. A couple of airless units for high volume work. Some special units for special jobs. We never had a HVLP unit though.

I only have limited experience with HVLP equipment, and compared with what I was used too, I didn't like it very much. I will always choose for a real compressor setup for spraying. You get a lot more power, ease of work and a lot more options because of the different attachments you can buy. Of course this will cost more, but, fesfrank, as you are talking about doing this professionally, I would urge you to get good stuff and not cut corners you might regret later.

A pancake compressor is not good enough to run a spray gun. It's just too small. You'll need a compressor that can deliver at least 180-200 liter per minute, or 6-7 cfm. This is the absolute minimum to work with comfortably. Bigger is always better though. If you don't need to move it around, get the biggest unit your budget will allow. 

I would also never choose for a spray gun that can do it all, from lacquer to latex. No way. Especially latex is so far off because of it's viscosity you're better off with a dedicated unit. Get a spray gun that is meant for fine finish work only when working with furniture or cabinets. If you want a real quality spray gun, get one from DeVilbiss. It's the Festool of spray equipment. As you might expect, it costs a bit more but you get so much more also, in ease of use, durability and end result.   

As for the type of gun, I myself would heavily advise against a gravity feed gun and I don't understand why it is so popular with some people. For finish work we always used pressure feed cups, the ones that hang under the gun. I myself prefer this type much more than gravity guns. You see, when spraying objects you often need to work at awkward angles to get into all kinds of small corners. This is especially true for furniture and cabinets. The problem with a gravity gun is that you often can't reach certain angles because the cup will spill over if you don't keep it straight.

The gravity cup does have it's own strengths of course. We mostly used it for types of paint with higher viscosity like spray on putty for cars and high solid primers for industrial objects. A pressure feed cup is less effective with paint that's too thick. We also used the gravity gun when finish spraying small objects, when we needed just a small bit of paint. To get effective suction from a pressure feed gun there needs to be minimum amount of paint in the cup. The gravity cup on the other hand, will allow you to prepare a very small amount of paint (say 1/20th of a liter) and finish it to the last drop.

But with the average work on cabinets and furniture we did, we mostly needed a minimum of 1/4 liter per object or more. We often did large batches of serial produced cabinets and then the pressure feed cup will be much better than a gravity cup. If you put a lot of paint in a gravity cup it will be awkward to hold because the center of gravity will be above your hand. With a pressure cup on the other hand, the center of gravity is at a more comfortable spot which makes it easier to work with. And of course it's biggest benefit, you can work at almost any angle you want. Very handy when spraying the inside of cabinets or the bottom of a table. A gravity cup won't reach there, and if you forget, you'll get your costly paint all over you. I'm talking from experience.  [smile]
 
Thank You for all the responses and the help.  Alex, I was looking up Devilbliss and there are a ton of guns.  Which one will be the best for me and how are the turbine units, price, etc..    I cant buy a huge compressor now so I was wondering if the turbine units are just as good or better.
 
Fesfrank,

I have not bought my gun yet, but I understand the Asturo WB gun will work off of a small compressor.  Asturo says it is known for low air consuption.  I spoke to a rep at spraygunworld.com and he said that this was the case.

There are some that claim good results with the Wagner conversion gun.  I think in any case it depends on the size of rthe project and how long the trigger is consistently pulled.  For example, if you are doing cabinet doors, you are constantly starting and stopping  the paint flow, and thus a small compressor has an easier time keeping up.

I saw another  thread here with someone having good luck with an Asturo gun with a pancake compressor.  You might want to search for it or someone more adept with the site may want to link up to it. 
 
Disclaimer: longwinded technical blabla ahead  [scared] - by all means skip it if you're not into it.

I agree with Alex - there's no such thing as a one trick pony when it comes to spraying.
Even if there are guns that are capable of spraying all liquids, you'll have to have a busload of nozzles and/or needles and/or aircaps to do so.
In my experience a good aircoat sprayer ( airless pressure pump with air support to encapsulate/form the spraycone and minimise overspray ) comes close to this elusive goal, but a professional aircoat system like for instance a Graco makes a Kapex with all bells and whistles seem a bargain....

Not just that, but you'll waste a hideous amount of paint when it's time to clean up. It's not uncommon to have a full quart or even more between container and nozzle - go figure.

I haven't tried a decent quality HVLP system, but I hear from colleagues in the GC and Painting profession that a decent 4 stage turbine system will do OK, but doesn't come cheap. It's main bonus being it's portability. The much advertised "big plus" of less overspray isn't percieved as significant whatsoever. If you want little overspray: go aircoat. That may even save you lots of finish / paint/ laquer as long as you're doing 10 gallons between cleanings.... I've tried some "conversion guns" and they couldn't hold a candle to a decent "regular" gun. Guess the "good ones" weren't among them.

Perhaps there's also a little jargon mingling here, for over here ( Netherlands ) "latex" strictly means wallpaint - a type of waterbased dispersion paint, non glossy, with at least thick yoghurt consistency, the main quality factors being it's opaqueness, glosslesness, scrubbing resistance and the ability to cover spots and discolourations in just one coat, if possible. It's only sprayed with airless  / aircoat pressure type sprayers - they're even called "pumps" - it's the same type of equipment that's use to spray plaster.
On your side of the pond, I've seen things advertised as "latex" that are (semi) enamel type of paints, meant for use on wood siding. Totally different animal.

I'm with Alex in his preference for "old fashioned" spray guns. If you do have a decent compressor, it's by far the most capable gun for most finishes. Devilbiss are the bees knees in sprayguns, but there are other top notch manufacturers as well. I personally prefer a gravity feed cup, for I like the balance better and they're quite a bit easier to clean and on maintenance, but that's just me. They're less capable in odd angles, and can be somewhat tricky to use into tight spaces. It's just personal preference.  

But the most important thing ( next to a good spraygun and a decent quality compressor - skip the oilless types as they're usually not very durable ) is quality of the supplied air, and that's tightly coupled to the quality of the aircleaner/reducer.

With a small or simple reducer there is a very steep relation between airflow and regulated pressure. The pressure drops significantly if the airflow goes up. This behaviour is especially severe around the zero airflow point. This means that a cheap regulator may allow the pressure in the hose to rise significantly during a static period ( no trigger depressed - no airflow ) and drop severely in the first moment of airflow. This period of overpressure will last longer with the length / volume of the airhose, and the elasticity of the material. A small ID hose with decent non-elastic braided reinforcement or made from a stiff material may diminish this behaviour somewhat, but it's very beneficial to have a supple hose, so as not to hamper your movement, and the best way to counteract this is at the source, being the regulator.

Pressure swings are very annoying, for the consistency of the paint delivery is one of the most important factors in a decent sprayfinish. When this "hysteresis" is too prominent, you'll waste lots of finish, for you'll have to start the gun next to the target, and wait for the cone to stabilise before you move on to it.
When you factor in that the venturi mechanism that delivers the finish in the airflow is far from linear, you'll see where this gets you: lots and lots of finish wasted, and lots of frustration. Hit the workpiece just a little too soon, and you'll lay on too much.

The tight control of regulated pressure in a membrane type regulator usually goes up with the diameter of the membrane, and with the length of the used coilspring. Of course the quality of the components like valves and such is very important, but usually: larger membrane, longer spring housing means better regulation with less hysteresis. Some high quality regulators use airsprings and pistons.
The larger the surface of the microfilter in the cleaning canister, the less oilmist and vapour gets through. It's very beneficial to put the aircleaner/regulator combo below the compressor if possible, and having a decent length hose between the compressor and the cleaner helps cool the air, so more moisture is separated. This may be a little less important spraying waterbased finishes, but in my experience, they're even more susceptible to traces of oil then an oil based finish is to traces of water.

Most compressors have a regulator on the tank, and quite frequently some sort of cleaner is integrated as well. While these regulators may be fine for your pneumatic nailer, they're hardly useable for spraypainting. Regulation hysteresis is very large, and since they're directly fed off the tank, there has been no opportunity for the air to cool, and it will contain a significant amount of moisture ( and probably oil as well ) after the cleaner/separator. From the tank, Most people want some "room to move" so longer hoses are favoured, increasing the "buffer capacity" AFTER the regulator. Besides, you'll want your impact wrench to run unrestricted, so a large ID hose is favoured - we want airflow, don't we?

For spraypainting, this is all wrong. You'll want a airclaner/separator that's about as detached as possible from the heat of the tank air and you'll want an air hose between the regulator and the spraygun that has the least volume, while being supple enough not to hamper your movement, and radially stiff enough not to expand under pressure at the same time.
Ideally, your compressor should be in a different room, for not only is the sound less annoying, ( and one can still experience an ever so little jolt in the movement when the compressor decides to kick in close to your ears ) but the cooling fan whon't have the ability to move massive loads of dust and half dried spray through the air as well. Try to get a good cleaner/regulator combo, and have it as close to the spraygun as practically possible.

A couple of years ago ( probably 10-15 ) as an experiment I've tried the standard regulator on a regular decent quality 2 cylinder 3,75 HP belt driven compressor, effective (!) capacity 345 ltrs/min or 12 cfm with a 25 Gallon tank on a standard summer day, tank pressure 10 bar or 145 PSI. It was connected to a professional spraygun using 50 feet of 1st quality synthetic rubber hose, 8mm ID, braided, rated for 35 bar or 500 PSI. This type of compressor is usually marketed as 18-24 cfm, and is about the largest compressor that's readily available for use on single phase power where I live.
When spraying an empty (!) gun on a piece of paper, non moving at a 10" distance a clear moisture pattern appeared in less then a minute.
The pressure drop was very noticeable, the gun producing a very distinguished PFFFffffffff........ with every press of the trigger. The first 1/4 second was effectively unusable, and it was very difficult to regulate the airflow and the needle. The amount of spilled laquer was enormous, and so was the residual spray ( floating particles of overspray that are half-polymerised can be just as damaging to your surface as dust particles - a risk using thinned synthetic laquers ).

It was effectively impossible to lay down a decent quality finish. I used synthetic alkyd based automotive laquer, properly thinned to the right consistency using a DIN viscosity cup. I opted for metallic cobalt blue as it's easy to spot ANY surface tension problems using metallic laquer and this was the colour at hand.

Using the same setup, but with a good aircleaner/regulator at the end of the hose ( fed directly off the tank, bypassing the "built in" regulator ) and a 6 feet length of 4mm ID braided hose to which the gun ( cleaned and dried ) was connected the picture was totally different. Consistent cone, no evidence of moisture, and hardly any pressure incosistencies.
In just under 15 minutes, I managed to collect a little under 7 cc's of moisture in the cleaner/separator. It was a warm summer day, but I wouldn't have called it humid - far from it actuallly. In fact, the "built in" regulator would have been delivering water instead of air about this point, but it didn't manage to capture enough moisture to be noticed when bled.
For spraypainting, I'd favour a decent quality cleaner/regulator setup with a crappy compressor over a decent compressor with a crappy cleaner/regulator setup every single time.

There's more to spraying then the gun or even the type of setup.

A very good spraypainter may be able to lay down a nice finish even if the total setup is a bit off. But mere mortals ( and I certainly am ) can use every single speckle of help.

For those of you interested: "Festool" was separated from the "Festo" brand.
Festo ( a nice light blue colour vs. Festool's lime green ) is still very active in industrial air supply and pneumatic control systems. They do have a nice range of cleaners/separators/regulators.....

End of longwinded technical stuff [embarassed]

Regards,

Job

 
wow.  As usual I am amazed at the depth of knowledge from this group.  I am purely amatuer when it comes to spraying.  I have a Fuji 4 stage turbine with their standard one quart pressure cup.  The cap/needle combo is a number 4 (1.4) and I spray anything from latex enamel to NC lacquer with this setup.  I'm not nearly as scientific and precise as I should be but I have to tell you, that system works great!  I recently finished four outdoor adirondack chairs using the latex enamel thinned just enough with water to prevent orange peeling.  They came out beautifully and, imho, pretty professional looking.  I have also used the same setup to spray the lacquer with a toner added on some small office pieces - inboxes I made as gifts- and they also came out looking great, especially after rubbing them out a bit.  All this with one sized set up.  Could my results be better?  No doubt they could but considering I don't have the time, patience and most importantly, the $$$ to get multiple setups, I'm pretty happy with the results.  I am very fastidious about cleaning my gun afterwards, I take it completely apart and make sure all traces of finish or paint are gone.  That turbine also delivers a lot of air without worry about losing pressure.  It just keeps humming along no matter how long it takes.  I never have to stop and wait for the pressure to build up.  I really like the minimal overspray the HVLP system affords as my garage serves as my spray booth at the moment.  I plan on getting a pop up tent later on with the sides and use that.  Again, I'm no pro, nor do I plan to be.  I'm sold on my HVLP system as it works for me and makes things fairly idiot proof.  I'm living proof... 
 
Back
Top