First real project with the CSC-SYS 50 - Battery Life

Agree with most of this, especially the voltage sag point and the overall conclusion about the SCA chargers.

That fast charging should lower internal resistance felt wrong to me and I couldn't find anything supporting this either.
Can you point me to something where I can read up on this?
I'm guessing he's basing it on Ohm's Law, for a fixed voltage the resistance is inversely proportional to current, so the resistance drops as the current rises. Fast charging is pumping more current in.

Having said that though, I just watched the videos on the new tabless batteries on the UK site, I am most definitely getting the 8's when they're released, they'll be a killer battery for the SYS 50!
 
Well, yes - but degrading the battery (which higher current seems to do more than lower current) causes the internal resistance to increase permanently.

Since I haven't bought into the FT battery system (yet?), I don't have any need for the 8s.
But if I had, I would also be interested ;)
 
Well, yes - but degrading the battery (which higher current seems to do more than lower current) causes the internal resistance to increase permanently.

Since I haven't bought into the FT battery system (yet?), I don't have any need for the 8s.
But if I had, I would also be interested ;)
The SYS 50 was my gateway into the Festool battery platform. Put off buying into another battery platform for many years until that purchase, but don't regret it at all, I'm now committed!

And the weird thing is, the cordless tools seem to multiply all on their own! ;-)
 
Agree with most of this, especially the voltage sag point and the overall conclusion about the SCA chargers.

That fast charging should lower internal resistance felt wrong to me and I couldn't find anything supporting this either.
Can you point me to something where I can read up on this?
It is not that it lowers it per se. It is not a linear single-property characteristic that is at play here. The compounds used to make the cell are amorphous for the most part, we seek to make them as directional as possible but they are not so entirely. It is more that it does not allow it to rise as fast. Any time a battery is charged/discharged the chemicals are "moved" slightly around. They do not stay /completely/ still as if in some type of a crystalline structure. The higher the temperature, the more they move randomly. The higher the potential difference /affected by the current at a given resistance/ the more they are "align" to it. Think of it like running water over a river bed. The steeper the incline, the faster the water goes, the faster the water goes, the smoother the river bottom as it abrades it, the smoother the river bottom, the yet faster the water goes. You will not see a fast river forming meanders in a homogenous substrate. Have the incline *too* much and the water will dig deep into the rock, destroying it. Basically there is a range of inclines that enforces a smoother bed and maintains a fast flow over time. Below it and stale water regions create, clogging the flow had the incline suddenly increase /causing river go out of banks/. Too much a gradient, the water will fast dig into the ground below it, destroying the river bed.


When you charge/discharge slow, the "pull/push" of the current(-defined-potential-differential-aka-voltage*) is less, allowing the non-directionality of structures to propagate inside the pack more freely. This over time limits the high-load current by increasing internal resistance ever so slightly *without* affecting capacity at low currents, it may even increase it.
When you charge/discharge (too) fast, the local potential difference becomes too strong and re-arranges the compounds in undesirable ways.
When you charge/discharge at too high a temperature, the worst happens, the high temperature messes up the structure and it even force a gradual breakup of the compounds involved.

Effectively, you want to charge a cell /for high performance usage like in power tools/ at as fast a rate as you can *before* it is too much to start degrading a cell.

Festool knows these properties of their cells, so they set the charge rates individually for each pack type to not exceed this threshold but get as close to it as possible given the used charger capability.

---
I do not have a specific research on this at hand as this is not my field these days, and I am HUGELY oversimplifying here. That said, recent research you will find covers the various micro-effects that happen. I have not seen a "macro" study on this for like .. a very long time. And I do not see a point. In a macro study you inevitably get so many variables moving, the results may be useful for marketing but useless scientifically. And not sure who to market this to. In the models/drones space, where they use high-performance 18650s extensively for decades, it is well known to not slow-charge high performance packs as a general rule.

That said. For most Festool packs, the TCL 6, the SCA 8 and the SCA 16 are all fast chargers. It is just the Airstream ones are able to move the curve slightly more into the optimum territory by not being limited by the heat generation of a charging pack as the TCL line of charges are. The only pack type where the TCL 6 moves into the "slow(er)" charger territory is the 8Ah one. For all other packs the SCA 8 is about as fast a charger as you want/need.


*) more precise wording, shall someone nit-pick
 
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@mino So given all the very impressive metrics from Festool on the new tabless batteries are significantly higher than the current crop, I'm thinking slow charging which may cause a very marginal decrease in power but will help retain capacity better may not be a bad thing considering the much higher ratings. It seems a trade off well worth it, in fact even a low double percentage digit drop in power will still mean they'll perform better than the existing ones according to the figures provided.
 
Correct.

I would avoid using the TCL3 with those, and that is about it.

Also, worth mentioning, with the super-low internal resistance you will see with the TBX8 /and even the current 8Ah packs/ the packs heat less, meaning the TCL 6 is not limited by the pack's temperature like it is so with the smaller/weaker packs. You will see 3/4 (6/8) the practical charge rates compared to the 8A SCA 8 with those packs, not 1/2 as is commonly seen with the smaller packs.
 
@mino So given all the very impressive metrics from Festool on the new tabless batteries are significantly higher than the current crop, I'm thinking slow charging which may cause a very marginal decrease in power but will help retain capacity better may not be a bad thing considering the much higher ratings. It seems a trade off well worth it, in fact even a low double percentage digit drop in power will still mean they'll perform better than the existing ones according to the figures provided.
Bosch might have found a convenient solution with their latest generation of chargers that allows to choose between charging modes "Standard", "Power Boost" and "Long Life". I would appreciate that in a future generation of Festool chargers as well.
 
Bosch might have found a convenient solution with their latest generation of chargers that allows to choose between charging modes "Standard", "Power Boost" and "Long Life". I would appreciate that in a future generation of Festool chargers as well.
That Bosch solution is mostly pointless for Festool.

IF you use garbage bin cells in some of your packs, have stupid/untagged packs without sensors out, etc, etc. It absolutely does make sense to have the user compensate for this - it prevents the charger to "know" what pack type it is charging and adjust the charge curve appropriately.

If you have smart packs only, which is the case of Festool, their current 10.8/14.4/18V LiIon platform was one of the first ones 20+ years ago that was smart-packs-only from the get go, doing something like that is plain stupid.


If a Festool charger can optimal-charge a given pack, it does it. If it cannot due to performance of charger limitations or pack being overheated, it chooses the next best option which to charge as close as feasible to the optimum it has programmed. Solved. There is zero point in forcing the user to get educated on the intricacies of battery charging when the charger already has all the information it needs to choose the best available charging profile.


ADD:
There is some benefit to the "Power Boost" profile but it is a double-edged sword. Both for user and for toolmaker. Charging faster than optimum does damage the packs. As such it brings more problems and trouble to the vast majority of customers, especially with crews not owning their tools/packs etc. It is much better to have the user use the appropriate higher-performance pack when they need more raw performance from the tool. Besides, Festool does not play the "raw performance above all" games for a long time by now.
 
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