First Sysport Project Challenges

[Patrick Cox]

Hello,
Well, I have started my Plywood Sysport project and I am running into some challenges.  I am having trouble getting all pieces square and the same size as each other.  (sides, top/bottom.)

The first issue I ran into was trouble with joining two 55" rails.  Even with the two guide rail connectors, I was getting some flex between the two rails and my cuts were not straight.  So I then decided to cut my pieces down to rough length so I could use one 55" rail to rip my pieces down but I am still getting cuts that are 1/2 to 1 mm off from one end to the other.  I am using Rip Guides and Incra T Track for setting up my rip cuts and I am using a woodpecker rule and rule stop to setup each Rip Guide so they should be the same.  I am wondering a couple of things...

I am curious to hear from those of you who rip sheet stock with your Festool track saw, what have you had the best luck with?  (I assume that is a lot of you!  )

Also, I guess I will need to buy a longer rail.

More to come.

Thanks

 

[Jeff Zanin]

I am not familiar with rip guides.

One thing to consider is how you are supporting the work when making the cuts; if it is not reasonably flat and solid you can get flexing of the track and/or shifting of the track on the workpiece.

Also, have you checked and adjusted the fit of the saw baseplate to the track?

Finally, is the track long enough to overhang the work enough to properly support the saw at the start and end of the cut?

 

[eddomak]

Hi, you're probably more experienced than me at this, but in addition to the tips already mentioned I do the following checks:

1) Use a straight edge behind the join of the rails when joining them and doing the final tighten down
2) Remove the factory edge of the sheet goods (ie don't assume this is straight), then use this as the reference edge for the parallel guides of your choice
3) When setting the parallel guides, make sure any rulers have not shifted (I use the Incra T Track plus with a slide-in ruler, and this has shifted in transit before)
4) When cutting, be careful not to apply any sideways force by accident
5) I sometimes still manually make some marks on the board at both ends to see if the rail is aligned before cutting

As for whether it is square, I would also remove the remaining factory edge as it is probably not as square as you would like. Then this becomes the reference edge for any crosscuts you might be using the parallel guides for. I tend to just use the MFT for this if possible, but otherwise I use the rail butted up against an Woodpecker's square (and having use the square to draw a cut line first). By this time you are probably only using one rail so at least it takes the joining out of the equation.

I just finished cutting 4 sheets including some wardrobe sides measuring 1700x600 and they were square, and I'm not super experienced. Hope this helps.

 

[Patrick Cox]

I am not familiar with rip guides.

One thing to consider is how you are supporting the work when making the cuts; if it is not reasonably flat and solid you can get flexing of the track and/or shifting of the track on the workpiece.

Also, have you checked and adjusted the fit of the saw baseplate to the track?

Finally, is the track long enough to overhang the work enough to properly support the saw at the start and end of the cut?

Hello,
I was making these cuts on a 1" piece of solid foam insulation that was resting on my garage floor.  I am sure my garage floor is not perfectly level.  Could this be an issue?

I will check to ensure that my TS55 is secure in the channel.  I think it is but will check this again.

I believe the overhang is adequate.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Patrick Cox]

Hi, you're probably more experienced than me at this, but in addition to the tips already mentioned I do the following checks:

1) Use a straight edge behind the join of the rails when joining them and doing the final tighten down
2) Remove the factory edge of the sheet goods (ie don't assume this is straight), then use this as the reference edge for the parallel guides of your choice
3) When setting the parallel guides, make sure any rulers have not shifted (I use the Incra T Track plus with a slide-in ruler, and this has shifted in transit before)
4) When cutting, be careful not to apply any sideways force by accident
5) I sometimes still manually make some marks on the board at both ends to see if the rail is aligned before cutting

As for whether it is square, I would also remove the remaining factory edge as it is probably not as square as you would like. Then this becomes the reference edge for any crosscuts you might be using the parallel guides for. I tend to just use the MFT for this if possible, but otherwise I use the rail butted up against an Woodpecker's square (and having use the square to draw a cut line first). By this time you are probably only using one rail so at least it takes the joining out of the equation.

I just finished cutting 4 sheets including some wardrobe sides measuring 1700x600 and they were square, and I'm not super experienced. Hope this helps.

Thanks for these tips.

 

[Patrick Cox]

Here is another question on this -

How square is square enough?  So if I have two side panels for a Sysport that are say 1/2mm off in width across the length of the panel, will this work or will I have problems putting everything together?

Thanks

 

[JZ Bowmannz]

Here is another question on this -

How square is square enough?  So if I have two side panels for a Sysport that are say 1/2mm off in width across the length of the panel, will this work or will I have problems putting everything together?

Thanks

I would put two square corners along one edge of the panel, use the same edge at front side, and the back edge can run wild, then trim the 1/2 mm later if you like to, but I don't normally bother for 1/2 mm on the back.

As long as you have two square corners along one side, it will go square as assembly.

 

[mleny77]

One thing I learned is to put a pencil mark at both ends and the middle of the panel when doing long rip cut. If you have any deflection in the rail it will occur in the middle at the joint.

 

[Jeff Zanin]

There is also the razor blade trick - I believe this was from John Lucas (RIP) but he may have gotten it from somewhere else.

This involves using a razor blade stuck into the wood at the measured distance at each end (and perhaps the middle) of the piece, parallel to the cut line, then moving the rail so the edge of the splinter guard touches the razor blade before securing the rail.  Obviously if you are doing this you would not be using parallel guides or similar so it would be slower but quite precise.

Using the Festool parallel guides I found it is not usually necessary to clamp the rail, and indeed this reduces the speed of doing repetitive cuts.  However the pads of the parallel guides can easily be displaced when positioning the rail or the saw, so it is important to check the position of both pads just before starting a cut.  Also I found the keeping the parallel guide extensions attached made the assembly easier to balance and less likely to move inadvertently.

 

[eddomak]

One thing I learned is to put a pencil mark at both ends and the middle of the panel when doing long rip cut. If you have any deflection in the rail it will occur in the middle at the joint.

Yes -  I second this as well!

 

[Patrick Cox]

One thing I learned is to put a pencil mark at both ends and the middle of the panel when doing long rip cut. If you have any deflection in the rail it will occur in the middle at the joint.

Well, I figured out at least part of my problem.  Last night I decided to re-cut my tops and bottoms and I will use my previous tops and bottoms for shelves since they are a bit smaller dimensions.  So I used this tip about marking the cut line in several places.  I am using my Woodpecker rule and rule stop for setting up my rip guides so I used the same to mark short lines on the board at the beginning, middle and end of the cut. This was a 48" cut across a 4x8 sheet of plywood.  So first I placed my rail on the board for my cut and checked to make sure the rail cut line lined up with the lines and it did.  So I made my first cut and it turned out to be pretty decent. 

So I did the same for my second cut and then when I compared the two cut pieces, the 2nd one was off by 1-2mm at one end.  Once I started investigating I determined that the cut started getting off line in about the middle of the cut and was off the most by the end of the cut.  And after thinking about what I had done, I believe I did one of two things...

1. I either put some of my weight on the board while making the cut and this caused the board to move during the cut.
2. or, I put my weight on the foam that is supporting the board and this caused the board to move during the cut.

3. Also, I wonder if my rail is too short and could that be part of the problem.

Please see below for pictures of my setup and result and I would appreciate more feedback on improving my cuts.  Thanks!

Here was the setup for the 2nd cut, taken after the cut.  You can see where the foam is visible is where my first cut was taken.  My first cut ended up OK.

Here is the end of the cut.  You can see I ended up short of the line and I can see that I started getting off line in the middle of the cut...

 

[Jimdude]

I never cut without clamping the rail, except, ironically, for short cuts (you'd think the long cuts were 'more safe'against movement due to more anti-slip being in contact with the wood, but I PERSONALLY found the reverse to be true: for small cuts, all my weight (*) is on a small surface, i.e. more pressure). A long unclamped rail also works 'easier' as a lever (I hope that's the right word): the end only needs to catch the plugit or vac-hose ever so slightly and it moves the rail.

I'm sure this is different for just about everybody .

(*) Not literally, of course. Read as in 'the pressure I put on the saw'.

 

[grbmds]

Can't tell exactly what the cause is, but I don't believe a 55" rail will permit enough overhang of the rail when cutting 48". This means that one of the guides under the saw isn't on the rail at each end (or at one end if you let the rail overhang enough on one end). It's close to being covered over the whole cut but might not be. If one of the guides one the base of the saw is off the rail when either beginning or ending the cut, at least those ends might not be cut where you want them to be because the saw will move slightly.

Second, you are right that putting sideways stress on the saw during the cut can, in fact, deflect the cut. Try to follow the saw with your body behind it the whole way (which might be tough on the floor). It might be better to cut on top of sawhorses with the sheet supported under the cut with the foam than cutting on the floor. You would have a better angle on being able to stay behind the cut with your body and arm.

Is the vac hose getting caught on the edge of the wood. It's possible this could deflect the cut a little if it happens during the cut.

I've found that, on longer cuts, it isn't just a simple matter of running the saw along the rail. It becomes important to make sure that your weight and direction of force remains the same along the entire cut.

 

[bertv]

In my experience this kind of error is caused by sideways pressure during the cut. It IS hard to avoid doing that when you are on the floor. Putting the foam and ply on a table helps avoiding that. You can 'walk' along the cut, and have more control of the downward pressure. When you get the hang of it the saw kind of pulls itself thru the wood…

 

[Michael Kellough]

Can't tell exactly what the cause is, but I don't believe a 55" rail will permit enough overhang of the rail when cutting 48". This means that one of the guides under the saw isn't on the rail at each end (or at one end if you let the rail overhang enough on one end). It's close to being covered over the whole cut but might not be. If one of the guides one the base of the saw is off the rail when either beginning or ending the cut, at least those ends might not be cut where you want them to be because the saw will move slightly.

Second, you are right that putting sideways stress on the saw during the cut can, in fact, deflect the cut. Try to follow the saw with your body behind it the whole way (which might be tough on the floor). It might be better to cut on top of sawhorses with the sheet supported under the cut with the foam than cutting on the floor. You would have a better angle on being able to stay behind the cut with your body and arm.

Is the vac hose getting caught on the edge of the wood. It's possible this could deflect the cut a little if it happens during the cut.

I've found that, on longer cuts, it isn't just a simple matter of running the saw along the rail. It becomes important to make sure that your weight and direction of force remains the same along the entire cut.

The rail is too short to cut that size piece with a TS saw.

The 55" rail is what was supplied with the original saws which had steel bases and therefore provided continuous contact with the guide rail. When Festool re-designed the saw base (TS gen) so that the guide jigs are just two short units spaced far apart they should have supplied a longer rail.

 

[pettyconstruction]

In my experience this kind of error is caused by sideways pressure during the cut. It IS hard to avoid doing that when you are on the floor. Putting the foam and ply on a table helps avoiding that. You can 'walk' along the cut, and have more control of the downward pressure. When you get the hang of it the saw kind of pulls itself thru the wood…

I agree , get it off of the floor ,and you will get better results.
Charlie

 

[Davidpepke]

I don't think your rail is too short - it looks good to me. You could slide the rail a bit more toward the start of the cut,  so you don't have to plunge into the wood,  but can plunge and the approach the wood while plunged down.

I would definitely also recommend clamping the rail. I bought the speed clamps and it made a huge difference in both work safety and quality. Also,  as others have said,  getting it up in a decent work height - on something stable(!) - really gives you a better result. And it gives you room underneath the rail to clamp it down.

Great project to get to know your TS!

David

 

[mkasdin]

I've ripped my fair share of wood without a track just following a pencil line with a skillsaw. Once your experienced you can cut on the line, outside the line or thru the line, etc. I don't own a track saw yet, but from your pics I could give you some pointers.  I would go out and purchase a sacrificial piece of sheet goods (i.e.  Construction grade ply) and practicing ripping it with or without the track. This will give you some additional level of confidence handling the saw.

Without watching you work you are moving something- foam, work material, track, saw, vacuum hose, etc. or any combination. My guess is the track is a little short and at the end your ending up, applying unequal pressure and twisting your wrist thereby moving the saw and the track? (Possibly from your body position if your hunched over)

Try laying down the track on a scrap and scribing a line then make a cut. Stay relaxed and let the saw do the work. See where the blade deviates from the line?

If in doubt let some and a video of you with an iPhone at a close up. Film it in slow motion as well and I think you'll find your source? It's always best to work off the floor with adequate support. I think there were some good suggestions above.

 

[Patrick Cox]

Many great suggestions here!  Thanks so much!  I will work on this over the weekend.