"Fixed" my Angle Unit

[JayStPeter]

I built two shop cabinets this weekend.  The first went together without a hitch.  When I build cabinets this way they usually do.  The second fought me the whole way.  Dang, I though, this plywood is as bad as the Chinese junk I've been using.  Well, not so much.  I went down to start putting some drawers in the second cabinet and realized it was waaaay out of square.  After some tracing back, I realized the back and top were cut out of square.  That cabinet was deeper than the other, so I had gotten out my Angle Unit and used it to cut them.  Of the six panels I cut, the last two were out of square.  I had treated the AU like the elderly the whole time.  I have no idea how it got pushed out of square, but now I remember why I haven't used the piece of &^*# in a long time.
I've recently been cleaning my shop up and have sold quite a few things on forums and auction sites.  I contemplated that fate for the AU.  Then I remembered reading back to what I read on John Lucas' site.  He came up with some fix that worked for him, but more to the point he mentioned contemplating screwing the thing so it's fixed.  Since it was either that or ebay, I did it.  It worked well.  I made about 7 or 8 cuts and knocked the thing around a little in between.  After going around the panel twice, it was as square as I could measure.  Problem fixed ... to 90.  It's now my square unit.

- Jay

 

[Steve Jones]

Always delightful to read of users enhancements to those shoddy build Festools, improving them for the tasks at hand is one of the joys of Carpentry.

Also you can make some really handy straight edges (for scribing cut lines etc) by ripping the guide rails into 2" strips.

And any model Festool router makes a great mallet for banging things into shape when it's all that's handy.

Words fail me....

 

[woodshopdemos]

Jay,
  I am really relieved that you fixed it and it worked. You are ahead of me. I did do as you say and made it a right angle unit and then I went and tried to make it an angle unit again. I tried to use an Incra adjustable miter saw gauge and haven't yet had success. Anyway, I am glad you were able to make it work.

 

[Dave Rudy]

  I had treated the AU like the elderly the whole time. 

Hey, careful.  Eli may be guilty of bad judgment, but he's probably at least 10 months shy of Alzheimer's.

Seriously, thanks for the tip.  This is the only Festool in which I have been totally disappointed.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Jay,

Please help me to understand.  I don't own a Festool Angle Unit; I have not had need for one.  I have read much criticism of it on FOG.  But I thought I have also read where some have been satisfied with its ability to hold a setting after inserting a washer (or two) as described by FOG members.  I have also discussed use of the Angle Unit with a Festool rep at a tool demo show.  He said that most users who were dissatisfied were not using it as recommended and thus asking it to do more than it was intended to do.  He said that proper user procedure was to set the Angle Unit to the desired angle, then to set it on the workpiece, and then to set the guide rail (and clamp if needed), then remove the Angle Unit, then make the saw cut.

If you are going to use the Angle Unit only as an accessory to enable you to set the Guide Rail at 90 degrees to a reference surface, why not make your own jig for the Guide Rail?  Or why not buy a large carpenter's square, e.g. 12" or 18" from Woodpeckers and have a precision tool to use for setting up your MFT, and marking sheet goods and lumber for cross-cutting, and checking assemblies for square?  I find my 18" 90x90x45 degrees square to be one of the most frequently used tools in my shop.

Dave R.

 

[joraft]

... Then I remembered reading back to what I read on John Lucas' site.  He came up with some fix that worked for him, but more to the point he mentioned contemplating screwing the thing so it's fixed. 

The tip I followed on John Lucas' site was placing sandpaper in between the moving parts. My variation was gluing two pieces of very thin 400 grit back to back, and then cutting it into a disc. Now the angle unit doesn't budge unless I want it to.

As for an absolutely accurate square, I bought a 12" from Ed Bennett. I don't use it to work with, I keep it in a safe place and use it to calibrate the tools I work with.

John

 

[Corwin]

I purchased my angle unit as a kit in the Systainer.  It came tightened down, as it would otherwise not allow for the Systainer lid to close.  This business of leaving the spring fully compressed is the problem with this product.  Adding a washer or two works far better for me than adding the sandpaper.  A new spring would be best, as I could once again be able to return the angle unit to its Systainer and close the lid.

Not a big deal for me, as I have not found the angle unit that useful anyway.  I think it best on the shorter rails.

 

[JayStPeter]

John, I think I'll be happy with it as a square unit.  I know where to look if I want to make it an angle unit again  .  

Aside from the small hole, this is fully reversible.  All I need to do is remove the screw and replace the plastic cover.  

I drilled a hole slightly smaller than the screw I put in so I actually had to force the screw to thread itself into the Al (7/64" for a #6 screw IIRC).  The nut could be unnecessary, but I wanted to be sure it doesn't move at all.

I actually contemplated either sandpaper or looking for some sort of sticky rubber to replace the fiber discs with.  But after a little thought I realized I'd rather have it 100% reliable at 90.  Repeatable accuracy is more important to me than flexibility and the majority of the time I'll actually use this is to cut things that don't fit on either the TS or MFT.  That almost always means squaring large panels.

Dave, I have considered building my own squaring jig for a while now.  I do really like the way the AU works.  If it didn't slip it's a pretty slick device.  As for the comments from the Festool rep, I don't know how I could've put less stress on the device making the dozen or so cuts I did and still actually using it to tweak the rail to square.  I'm pretty sure I  didn't even breath when I picked it up.  I really would've treated an egg rougher.  My main thought while using it was to avoid knocking it out of square.  Eventually you do have to use it to move the rail since that is it's job.  That is apparently enough to push it out.  I went around and measured all the parts of the cabinet I could and a slow degradation is clear.  A couple panels spot on, then a couple with minor variances of the type you can easily live with to the top and final panel with diagonals off by 1/8 and over 3/16.

I have plenty of different squares.  But, the AU is quick and easy.  I can use the same repeatability jig I use for parallel cuts in conjunction with it and wind up with parts that are all the same.  Using squares and pencil marks and tapping guide rails around takes a lot more farting around to get something that's not quite as accurate.

As an aside, when I was setting up the thing for drilling, I needed to ensure it was perfectly square and didn't move on me.  With the plastic cover off, you can use a pencil to draw a line around the arm where the cover was.  It really gave me the confidence that it hadn't moved before I drilled the hole.  It's possible that could be a way to repeatably set the thing up and check before each cut.  I didn't try to use that to reset it, but it's possible and I was afraid I might need to when making my test cuts.  You do lose the angle pointer when you remove the plastic cover though.

 

[Dave Rudy]

why not buy a large carpenter's square, e.g. 12" or 18" from Woodpeckers and have a precision tool to use for setting up your MFT, and marking sheet goods and lumber for cross-cutting, and checking assemblies for square?  I find my 18" 90x90x45 degrees square to be one of the most frequently used tools in my shop.

Dave R.

Dave,

The reason why a well-designed angle unit would be better is that it is attached and locked into the guide rail.  So when placed against the reference edge of the stock, it should automatically and repeatability, with precision, give you a guide rail exactly 90 degrees to the reference edge.  No measuring, marking, or transferring of any kind.

HTH

Dave Rudy

 

[Dave Rudy]

Festool rep at a tool demo show.  He said that most users who were dissatisfied were not using it as recommended and thus asking it to do more than it was intended to do. 

Dave R.

Bunk.  There are too many people on this forum (much more accomplished than me) that know exactly how to use the guide, and have used it as designed, with inconsistent and unreliable results.  An inconsistent and unreliable squaring mechanism is simply worthless.  That's why all the fixes to cause it to stay at 90 once set.

 

[Corwin]

Bunk, yep, that's what I was thinking. 

 

[brandon.nickel]

I agree with Corwin and Dave Rudy on this one, Dave.  I treat my angle unit with utmost care and still it moves.  I am using it exactly as intended.  I find the only way to apply it to a panel without moving it is to elevate/tilt the guide rail, square the AU, and carefully lower the AU onto the wood.  If you aren't perfect and need to slide it left/right to reach your cut-line, it usually moves.  It's just not a good tool (as sold).

 

[Corwin]

Hey Brandon,  Do try the washer fix -- it does make the unit usable.  I needed to add two washers that I had around to make it tighten firm.  Only problem now is the Systainer lid won't close unless I remove the plastic insert to allow for a pinch more height. 

 

[colevalleytim]

I put a little spring washer (not a star washer) in my angle unit and it works fine.  I use my tools in the field, store the angle unit in the systainer with the saw without a problem. 

I think the biggest improvement that could be made is some detents at 90 and 45 like a miter saw or the MFT fence. 

tim

 

[Steveo48]

..... I have also discussed use of the Angle Unit with a Festool rep at a tool demo show.  He said that most users who were dissatisfied were not using it as recommended and thus asking it to do more than it was intended to do.  He said that proper user procedure was to set the Angle Unit to the desired angle, then to set it on the workpiece, and then to set the guide rail (and clamp if needed), then remove the Angle Unit, then make the saw cut....../quote]

Gads!  Isn't it easier to just measure the leg and base of the triangle and use that expensive Festool guide rail to make the cut?  C'mon boys, I HATED math and the trig isn't THAT hard to calculate the angles!  Spend a few bucks on a calculator with trig functions and download trig tables off of the internet.

Steve (Stunned at how hard we have to make some things)

 

[JayStPeter]

Steve, it seems like you're solving a different problem.  I don't see how using trig, a calculator, and multiple measurements is faster or easier than what Dave was describing.  While he broke it into a lot of steps, it's really a 10  sec. (if that) process.  Assuming you've done something to make the AU hold it's setting, it'll be a heck of a lot more repeatable than anything involving measuring.  Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your proposed solution.

Jay

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Steve,

You must have misunderstood my earlier comment.  Jay is correct, no math (trigonometry) is needed.  The Festool rep was simply transferring the angle using the Angle Unit and a Guide Rail.

Dave R.

 

[Steveo48]

I guess my thing is we're buying Festools and we expect them to be high quality and accurate out of the box.  If some of these accessories worked as well as the power tools do out of the box, I'd have nothing to say here. 

If you have to come up with your own fix for these accessories, why not spend less money than the $71.50 USD for the angle gauge on something cheaper you can fix and use.  Or just save the money for another Fesstool power tool?

As I stated earlier I hated math.  I won't go on about that, but I had an industrial math class in college and it finally made sense to me, being able to "see"  the solutions in machine setups rather than just doing the odd problems on what ever page was assigned.

TI makes a calc (Texas Instruments TI-30X IIS Scientific Calculator) available for under $15 at walmart that has the trig functions.  Thats $56.55 less than the angle gauge.  ( It's also a great multi tasker!) Simple instructions in the calc go step-by-step on how to figure the leg, base or any angle you need. The tables are free off of the internet, probably in the back of your HS kids math books.  It's as fast as entering the information and hitting the button, and always more accurate than any angle guide on long angles.  Or I should say, as accurate as your measuring anyway.  ;D

I teach this stuff to 15 YO ghetto kids and poor white kids living in trailers who need to take their shoes and socks off to do 1 + 1.  Don't let the term trigonometry intimidate you.  I don't say that word until the kids are already deep into it.

Frequently you don't even need to go this far to figure the angles necessary if you have other dimensions to work with.

For multiple cuts, cut a master angle out of ply and you don't need to measure again.

Steve

 

[Michael Kellough]

TI makes a calc (Texas Instruments TI-30X IIS Scientific Calculator) available for under $15 at walmart that has the trig functions.   Thats $56.55 less than the angle gauge.  ( It's also a great multi tasker!) Simple instructions in the calc go step-by-step on how to figure the leg, base or any angle you need. The tables are free off of the internet, probably in the back of your HS kids math books.  It's as fast as entering the information and hitting the button, and always more accurate than any angle guide on long angles.  Or I should say, as accurate as your measuring anyway.  ;D

I teach this stuff to 15 YO ghetto kids and poor white kids living in trailers who need to take their shoes and socks off to do 1 + 1.  Don't let the term trigonometry intimidate you.  I don't say that word until the kids are already deep into it.

Frequently you don't even need to go this far to figure the angles necessary if you have other dimensions to work with.

For multiple cuts, cut a master angle out of ply and you don't need to measure again.

Steve

For any angled cut with a side longer than 24" laying out the cut lines from coordinates will be more accurate than the finest angle gauge. In my shop I use CAD to find the coordinates.

I don't know how to do the trig to find the coordinates in the field but you've inspired me to learn.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Steve,

It sounds to me like you have learned to love math (trig) or least like it a lot.  I had a lot of it in engineering school, but I'd much rather learn the techniques that many master carpenters and craftsmen have developed which depend more on transfer or projection than measurement and calculation.  Have you considered use of a traditional framing square or a Swanson Speed Square?  I don't have enough experience to fully know how to use either, but I have witnessed what an Amish crew can do with these and a simple home made angle gauge (which they used to match roof profiles when adding a garage on to my house).   One of the problems with th Angle Gauge and a Guide Rail is that the Guide Rail acts as a long lever arm, thus multiplying the force applied to the pivot point of the Angle Gauge if the user is not careful not to apply side force to the Guide Rail at a location remote from the pivot point.  For the same (leverage) reason, Festool supplies a locking device with the MFTs to secure the remote end of the fence to the side rail, to lessen the loading on the pivot point lock of the MFT fence angle unit.

Dave R.