FS 2700/2 Tolerance

[Cheese]

What do we know about Festool's extrusion process that gives it such high accuracy?

It's all about properly vetting their suppliers and deploying their in-house QA group.

Number one is that Festool Corporate found an European extruder that is capable of manufacturing extrusions to their specifications and number two, is they are tireless in culling out the discrepant parts. It's not enough to just have a competent manufacturer, you also have to perform your do-diligence on QA to ensure that discrepant parts don't fall through the cracks.

Remember, a few years ago Festool USA tried to bring some of the extrusion production to the states, they even set up a dedicated group in Indiana to perform the rail manufacturing, but after several years, and as the mountain of extrusion rejects out numbered the mole hill of extrusion acceptables, Festool USA just called it quits. They may fire it back up again as I feel there is still a viable market out there besides guide rails. But it was certainly an eye opening experience in that things that seem simple ...may not be so simple.

There's a specification within the industry that delineates aluminum extrusion manufacturing tolerances. Most extruders accept those tolerances as the standard (which is what it is), so few extruders feel the need to improve the breed because the tolerances are what they are.

However, the tolerances were produced at the time because of what the manufacturers were producing at the time...aluminum structural components. Aluminum structural components don't need to be straight to within .005" per foot but guide rails do.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Yes, [member=44099]Cheese[/member] I can imagine that a lot of the cost involved, beyond manufacturing itself, is in transportation/handling/damage mitigation. I would assume that was the point of the US based extruder attempt.
I thought the Festool rails underwent some kind of machining step on the contact portion, rather than just relying on the extrusion itself? That would add to the cost too, where the cheaper brands wouldn't go to that extent.
I know from my two experiences with Makita rails, that the straightness is just not there. It's anecdotal, very limited, and may not be a priority to every user though. Some guys just use their track saws for rough break-down, not expecting "joinery faces" from it.

 

[Cheese]

Yes, [member=44099]Cheese[/member] I can imagine that a lot of the cost involved, beyond manufacturing itself, is in transportation/handling/damage mitigation. I would assume that was the point of the US based extruder attempt.
I thought the Festool rails underwent some kind of machining step on the contact portion, rather than just relying on the extrusion itself? That would add to the cost too, where the cheaper brands wouldn't go to that extent.
I know from my two experiences with Makita rails, that the straightness is just not there. It's anecdotal, very limited, and may not be a priority to every user though. Some guys just use their track saws for rough break-down, not expecting "joinery faces" from it.

I'm sure the big incentive for setting up the Festool USA extrusion operation was an anticipated huge reduction in shipping & handling costs. Shipping because you're shipping 40' containers of air because the aluminum rails are very light but they are also very bulky and handling because the rails are so easily damaged. Those rails need to be protected at all times.
I recently ordered a Mafel F 160-LR rail from Germany, and it was double boxed in cardboard packaging that was very specific to the rail I ordered...it was not simply just 2 rectangular boxes inside each other.

If that USA extrusion operation had been successful, maybe a 5000 mm rail would still be available in the US?

[attachimg=1]

 

[mino]

I would say that it likely comes down to money. $272 to be exact.
The FS 3000 sells for $743 and the FS2700 goes for $471. That's a big difference for 11.8".
...

Over here, the mainstream prices are 350 € for 2700 and 375 € for 3000 respectively.

Then the 2400 is 300 €, the 1900 is 220 € and the 1400 is 125 €.

The big jumps are already with the 1900 and the 2400. The 1900 package is over the 2000 mm max for standard shipping over here and the 2400 is over 2500 packaged which some carriers do, so all the >2400 rails are in the same "custom shipping" zone and the prices seem to reflect that.

I suspect the US huge price difference is also inside-US-shipping related. As in the 3000 no longer fitting into some standard "10' maximum length" thing in the US? But I am just guessing here.

 

[Coen]

Yes, shops that do not have the dynamic shipping rates put the special rate into the unit price.

EDIT: The longer lengths aren't made in the USA anymore, if I remember right?

 

[Ron B]

EDIT: The longer lengths aren't made in the USA anymore, if I remember right?

The 5000 is no longer available on this side of the pond.
It used to be that the 1400 with or without holes was the same price here. I now see that the1400 FS2 (new design) is actually more expensive than the holey model ($179 vs $165). 

 

[edwarmr]

So just an update, the FS 3000/2 I got is dead on! I couldn’t be happier

Interestingly enough, with all the talk about extrusion processes, the guy I talked to at Acme Tools here in Minnesota told me that all these companies use the same manufacturer for making their guide rails. I can’t confirm whether or not that’s true. The worker who told me was British so maybe he has more knowledge of what goes on in Europe. If it is true are all these rails made to the same tolerances or does Festool pay the manufacturer more to have better tolerances?

I could tell Acme wasn’t too excited to exchange my rail. The guy basically said that if the second one wasn’t straight I need to accept the tolerance for what it is. Thankfully it was spot on

[member=58857]Crazyraceguy[/member] Where did you get the $743 for the FS 3000/2? It costs $545 if you pick it up in store. Maybe the $743 is with the extra shipping charges here in the US? I bought mine with a new credit card that has a $200 bonus for a purchase of $500 on the card. So after tax I will pay just under $400 all said and done. Still expensive but I’m happy with it.

 

[woodferret]

Think bell curve.  We pay more to Festool to discard/truncate the ends of the curve.  There's always the chance that WEN's shipment will contain something that's 'perfect', but their allowance is wider - hence cheaper.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=70011]edwarmr[/member] that was just a quick Amazon search, so it's probably that "free" delivery making up the difference. There is only one seller there too.
I did buy mine locally and later the 2424 on. It took a couple of weeks though. They didn't keep those in stock. It has been quite a while since I got the FS 3000 though, I don't remember what it cost.
I foolishly expected that price fixing thing to keep it simple  [unsure]

That's good though, I don't think they could ever sell one at that price. I thought that might be the goal, slowly kill the product by pricing it out of existence? Then blame us......"you guys weren't buying them"

 

[Coen]

Amazon tends to be either just a bit cheaper... or a lot more expensive. At least, it is here.

 

[peter halle]

...Remember, a few years ago Festool USA tried to bring some of the extrusion production to the states, they even set up a dedicated group in Indiana to perform the rail manufacturing, but after several years, and as the mountain of extrusion rejects out numbered the mole hill of extrusion acceptables, Festool USA just called it quits. They may fire it back up again as I feel there is still a viable market out there besides guide rails. But it was certainly an eye opening experience in that things that seem simple ...may not be so simple...

Anyone notice all the guide rails lining the walls of Sedge's shop in his YouTube videos?  Bet they are rejects.

Peter

 

[Sparktrician]

...Remember, a few years ago Festool USA tried to bring some of the extrusion production to the states, they even set up a dedicated group in Indiana to perform the rail manufacturing, but after several years, and as the mountain of extrusion rejects out numbered the mole hill of extrusion acceptables, Festool USA just called it quits. They may fire it back up again as I feel there is still a viable market out there besides guide rails. But it was certainly an eye opening experience in that things that seem simple ...may not be so simple...

Anyone notice all the guide rails lining the walls of Sedge's shop in his YouTube videos?  Bet they are rejects.

Peter

That, as well as those damaged in shipping, like the rail with a u-turn in the middle on top of the Systainer stack....  [crying]