Guide rail saw tracking when connecting rails

[CADru]

Is the standard FS 1400/2 guide rail milled from a different "mold" then the FS 1400/2-LR 32 rail? When I purchased my TS 55 back in January 2016 I opted to swap the standard rail for the LR 32 rail. A few months ago my saw goes in for repair. They ship me a new saw and a new FS 1400 guide rail to boot. (Festool's way of saying "sorry" for sending my repaired saw to the wrong location 3000 miles away) So anyway, I'm attempting to connect the 2 rails (1400 & 1400 LR 32) with my TS 55 tracking nicely on the LR 32 when she hits the new 1400 there is more play then I'd like. If I adjust my TS 55 to the standard 1400 she will not ride onto the LR 32 smoothly. So I'm assuming these different rail types are not designed to be connected?

Though I do have other rails purchased 1-2 months apart that track the same as the LR 32 rail. For some reason this "free" rail Festool sent requires me to re-adjust my saw for use and only can be used individually.

Has anyone ever experienced this issue?
I connect my rails using the Betterley straightline connector

 

[Svar]

They are supposed to be identical, but sometimes are not. You are not alone with this problem. Try to exchange one of the rails.

 

[TylerC]

The LR 32 guide rail will connect with a standard guide rail. One of our trainers put together a short video that quickly walks through how to connect rails accurately:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BSleKgKDBn6

Sometimes the two rails won't have exactly the same thickness — either from wear or based on age of each rail. If this is the case for you, just make sure that the thinner rail is placed behind the thicker one so that it doesn't get caught as you make your cut.

 

[DrD]

[member=57769]TylerC[/member]

After having read and re-read Tyler's response to the op, I am really put-off by his "dismissive" remarks.  I'm not trying to get on a tirade about what we expect for the price we pay - BUT.  One of Festool's marketing claims is the "System Approach/Concept."  Then yet another is to adjust your tools to their rails.  The op's situation, coupled with Tyler's remarks flies in the face of this.

Having spent the last 25 years as a consultant to the steel industry, I can assure you I am well familiar with manufacturing tolerances.  If Festool cannot hold their extruders or extruded product suppliers to tolerances that allow for their tools to be used as they advertise, they should 1) change their marketing to " ...sometimes a system", 2) tighten up in-house quality assurance/control, or 3) find a better supplier.

And then to have their forum representative to blow off the whole issue is quite unacceptable!

 

[TylerC]

[member=57769]TylerC[/member]

After having read and re-read Tyler's response to the op, I am really put-off by his "dismissive" remarks.

I certainly didn't intend to seem dismissive of the question, and I apologize if it came off that way. (In rereading the question and my response, I definitely focused more on the "will the LR 32 rail connect with the traditional rail?" part and not enough on the "why isn't it a smoother connect?" part.) I spent time this morning with one of our applications specialists on this topic this morning, and he talked me through some of this.

I will also reach out to our product team and trainers to see if they have anything additional that might help regarding guide rail connections.

 

[antss]

I cannot see the "trainers" having anything meaningful to offer.

Do they have any influence on the manufacturing process/operation or quality control or choice of suppliers or manuf. equipment ?  Or are they simply a public relations conduit trying their best to offer a workaround or damage control when a problem like this arises ?

Listen , I'm not picking on the trainers. I am being critical of management sending these guys out to put a bandaid on problem they had no hand in creating.

Your policy needs to be to exchange rails that don't mate up because YOU couldn't maintain a consistent manufacturing facility.  Or - are you now going to have the PR folks tell us they are now "wear items" ? :

 

[semenza]

I cannot see the "trainers" having anything meaningful to offer.

Do they have any influence on the manufacturing process/operation or quality control or choice of suppliers or manuf. equipment ? Or are they simply a public relations conduit trying their best to offer a workaround or damage control when a problem like this arises ?

Listen , I'm not picking on the trainers. I am being critical of management sending these guys out to put a bandaid on problem they had no hand in creating.

Your policy needs to be to exchange rails that don't mate up because YOU couldn't maintain a consistent manufacturing facility.  Or - are you now going to have the PR folks tell us they are now "wear items" ? :

I know you say you are not picking on the trainers. However the Festool trainers are a lot more than what your comments suggest. And the quotes you put on the word trainers make me think that you don't even think they are actually trainers. Perhaps they are not what you seem to think they are?

Seth

 

[peter halle]

There is an internal informational pipeline at Festool and I can assure you that the trainers are involved and their input is valued.  They are not PR related but let's face facts - Festool is a tool manufacturer and seller.  They are also naturally involved with marketing.  No tool sales = no training necessary. Festool trainers regularly travel to Germany for training on new products and during their time there spend a great amount of time with the engineers and others in the development end.

I can state thru personal experience and interaction as a user here in the US that the Festool employed trainers are full of information and honestly I have never heard a negative thing about them.  They are known for spreading knowledge and giving genuine advice even if that results in a non-sale of a product.

Peter

 

[Brice Burrell]

Let's not get sidetracked on the trainers.  The issue is the guide rails.  I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure there is no solution to two rails not mating up properly.  The problem is it will adversely affect the cut quality.  You don't buy rails at $100-$340 each, and saws for $660-$780 to have poor results. 

 

[DrD]

[member=1146]Brice Burrell[/member]

Thank you Brice!  I was about to post the same thing about moving off the topic and unto the trainers.  Love the stuff that comes from the trainers, AND they are NOT the issue, especially the issue brought to attention by the op.

The issue is precisely what you said, what the op said and what I said.  Either Festool tools/accessories work together as a system or they do not!  This, and other issues of lack of/poor quality SHOULD NEVER be acceptable!  What else does Festool have to offer, other that the system approach and exceedingly high quality.

I fear we are at risk of having this fade away, without something positive on this issue from Festool. 

 

[semenza]

No OT side track intended.  [off topic]

Seth

 

[DrD]

Non taken on your part Seth. 

The trainers and their input are an invaluable resource to us on the FOG.  I look forward to whatever they might have to offer on this issue, especially in terms of dealing with what might be a quality/specification breakdown.

DrD

 

[Svar]

There is only one short term solution here. Festool should offer to swap the rails if they don't match. End of story. Long term solution is to improve tolerances on the product.

 

[TylerC]

The reason I brought up the trainers is that they don't seem to believe that this affects the quality of the cut. As they guys who use these tools all day every day, they might have some guidance -- no pun intended -- on connecting rails in ways that don't affect the quality or ease of the cut.

 

[DrD]

[member=57769]TylerC[/member]

OK, getting them involved is good - to a point.  We cannot tolerate (by continuing to support in any manner) work-arounds necessitated by poor quality of product; if that is the case, change the marketing to "... a System Approach with Necessary Work-arounds."

As [member=1146]Brice Burrell[/member] stated above, "... I'm pretty sure there is no solution to two rails not mating properly.  The problem is it will adversely affect cut quality.  You don't buy rails at $100-$349 each, and saws for $660 - $780 to have poor results."

Thus, I want to see, as one financially vested in a number of Festool products primarily buying into their marketing approach as their tolls working together as a "System", what they are going to do for the op, and as importantly, what they are going from this point forward about this problem - and make no mistake about it, this is a serious PROBLEM.

 

[DrD]

Went to the shop and took some measurements; this was no where close to a gauge R&R for those of you familiar with such.  Rather I took careful single (non-replicated) measurements at each end of my rails and in the middle.  Results:

  Rail      Purchase Date    Purchase Location    End with Lettering    Middle    Opposite End  - all measurements in inches
FS800          08/20/2013          Chicago, IL            0.634                0.635      0.633
FS/1080      04/13/2014          Bob Marino            0.636                0.638      0.636
1400/LR32  03/06/2013          Lombard, IL            0.633                0.634      0.632
FS1400        04/12/2013          Bob Marino            0.636                0.635      0.635
FS1900        05/27/2014          Bob Marino            0.635                0.634      0.632

These rails have been interconnected at various times, and I haven't noticed a problem.  Also note these rails came from 3 different sources, and were acquired over 1+ year span.  Further notice the last one was acquired May, 2014, almost 3 years ago.

None of this is to denigrate the op's stated problem.  Believing the op - and there is absolutely no reason to not believe - it would appear there has been a change at Festool, a slippage in quality assurance (which could include a change in suppliers without appropriate PPAP or otherwise assurance they were both capable and in control to meet spec), a loosening of specifications, or some other not so good process deviation.  Since Festool is a European company, doing business across the EU, I would suspect, unless regulations have changed, Festool is ISO-9000 certified, and as such, this should not be happening

So, one should ask and have answered:  What changed?  Two years ago the various rails seemed to fit together to give a System approach, now, perhaps not some much.

 

[antss]

The reason I brought up the trainers is that they don't seem to believe that this affects the quality of the cut. As they guys who use these tools all day every day, they might have some guidance -- no pun intended -- on connecting rails in ways that don't affect the quality or ease of the cut.

Well, they use them day in and day out ; but to what end ? Are they actually making anything besides mock ups  ?  Something that's then sold on ?

Their job is to promote sunshine and roses so Festool can sell some more gear - right ?  Gonna be tough to keep their job if they're the least bit critical of their employer , especially in public. 

So, naturally it's in their best interest to find a workaround to all issues to keep the big machine running smoothly.

At a venerable law firm I worked at many moons ago we'd have called in the "fixer" to "handle" the client, or official , or opposing party so as to make that particular problem go away.  He wouldn't have been needed if we were able to SOLVE the problem on our own. It went away, but that's different than a solution in my book. 

Sounds to me like  the training staff has a somewhat similar function in their job description as well as being teachers.

 

[TylerC]

[member=727]antss[/member] Festool trainers were all professionals craftsmen before coming to Festool, and they continue to use the tools in various real-world situations. Their job is to teach users the most effective ways to use the tools. They answer questions and help people with frustrations they might experience.

A so-called "workaround" isn't about ignoring larger potential issues. It's about trying to help people today make the most of their tool as it exists now.

Again, my only point in bringing the trainers into this is that they might know of ways to improve the quality of the guide rail connections. In the exact same sentence that I mentioned the trainers, I said that I'd meet with the product team.

If the trainers have advice to offer on this, should I not share it?

 

[DrD]

Of course the trainers' perspectives are vitally important!  My concern is this thread has become more focused upon the relevance of the trainers and less so on the op's issue.

DrD

 

[TylerC]

Of course the trainers' perspectives are vitally important!  My concern is this thread has become more focused upon the relevance of the trainers and less so on the op's issue.

DrD

I completely agree. I can't real add much to the original question until Monday -- and I'm at a family reunion this weekend -- so I'm bowing out for the moment.