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Guide Rail system
- Thread starter Scrap
- Start date
Scrap,Scrap said:Could you PM me whatever it was you said? I don't care if it is insulting, I am just trying to make a decision.Eli said:I'm going to volunteer that I was inappropriate having not recalled that section of the rules and entered into unecessary engagement. I was not aware this was a past issue elsewhere. I am deleting my previous comments in comparison of the two systems. Again, all respect to all methods of work and workers. ;D
To Dan Clark, I had no intention of starting a debate, I am just trying to find out if the Festool system will do everything that I need it to do.
As for your comments about EZ smart tools, I wasn't trying to discuss them, I was asking specific questions about Festool tools one question simply used EZ Smart as an example.
Just a side note, I find it funny that you come into this thread to talk about rules and whatnot, yet have made no attempt to add to the original topic. I also find it funny that in spite of having ZERO tolerance for "these" discussions, you still managed to slip in a little dig.
I am simply trying to learn some of the capabilities of a system that I am considering spending a LOT of money on, if you don't want to help me learn more about it, feel free to keep your opinions to yourself.
I'll be happy to provide any information that I can about Festool tools.
However, please keep EZ out of the dicussions, even as an example. Unfortunately, the EZ people have a history of twisting threads started with good questions like yours into an EZ marketing campaign. If you are interested, please feel free to PM me and I'll send you some links to some bad examples of this.
Regards,
Dan.
dlynnsr said:I just looked at the clip......... only advantage I saw was the abundance of saw dust engulfing this guy.
Lynn
PS I am against censorship unless it is vulgar or personal.
Lynn,
If you want to see some examples of posts by the aforementioned company or it's acolytes that I'm sure you would probably consider vulgar or personal, please give me a PM.
Regards,
Dan.
Dan,Dan Clark said:Scrap,
I'll be happy to provide any information that I can about Festool tools.
However, please keep EZ out of the dicussions, even as an example. Unfortunately, the EZ people have a history of twisting threads started with good questions like yours into an EZ marketing campaign. If you are interested, please feel free to PM me and I'll send you some links to some bad examples of this.
Regards,
Dan.
After rereading my first post, I can see how you could easily jump to the conclusion that I was here to promote the other guys, due to my ending my post with the offer to find links.
But if you notice only my first question had anything to do with the competition. The DadoWiz has nothing to do with EZ Smart whatsoever. But if it makes you feel better, I will just say "the competition" from now on, instead of calling things out by name.
Its just that in this scenario the 2 specific things I was asking about were specific to those 2 brands.
That said, I'd love to see these horrible threads that you've been talking about
Now that this thread has been completely derailed, I guess I will ask the second question again in a slightly different manner.
Does Festool have a solution for making perfect dadoes every time? If so what is that solution?
Scrap,
There is only one "competitor" about which I'm concerned. If you want to use any other competitor as an example, I don't care and I don't think anyone else will either. If you read the forum rules, you'll see that there is only ONE vendor whose name is mentioned and the rule that I quoted is the only rule about a specific vendor.
Regarding DadoWiz, I looked through another forum's thread about it. It looks interesting to me, but one poster had some very negative things to say about it's guide system and that you were forced to use the DadoWiz guide system. That's second hand info, so take it for what it's worth.
Regarding your question about making "PERFECT dados EVERY time", I'm not sure that's possible without an expensive production line system. That said...
Have you looked at the the Festool Guide Stops and Edge Guides? Here's a link to one of the vendors:http://www.bobmarinosbesttools.com/subcategory.html?sid=30153f027c090cbf48b55323e70fa5e1&scat=18. The Edge Guides would work without a Festool Guide rail and you use the Festool Guide Stops with a rail.
There's another vendor (whose name escapes be now) that makes a similar guide adapter that works with Festool Guide Rails and Festool Routers. They make fantastic stuff that is supposed even better than Festool. I think this other product runs between $200 and $400. I liked what I saw, but it seemed pricey to me. Since the Festool Guide Stop is only $63, I decided to stick with that.
Regards,
Dan.
There is only one "competitor" about which I'm concerned. If you want to use any other competitor as an example, I don't care and I don't think anyone else will either. If you read the forum rules, you'll see that there is only ONE vendor whose name is mentioned and the rule that I quoted is the only rule about a specific vendor.
Regarding DadoWiz, I looked through another forum's thread about it. It looks interesting to me, but one poster had some very negative things to say about it's guide system and that you were forced to use the DadoWiz guide system. That's second hand info, so take it for what it's worth.
Regarding your question about making "PERFECT dados EVERY time", I'm not sure that's possible without an expensive production line system. That said...
Have you looked at the the Festool Guide Stops and Edge Guides? Here's a link to one of the vendors:http://www.bobmarinosbesttools.com/subcategory.html?sid=30153f027c090cbf48b55323e70fa5e1&scat=18. The Edge Guides would work without a Festool Guide rail and you use the Festool Guide Stops with a rail.
There's another vendor (whose name escapes be now) that makes a similar guide adapter that works with Festool Guide Rails and Festool Routers. They make fantastic stuff that is supposed even better than Festool. I think this other product runs between $200 and $400. I liked what I saw, but it seemed pricey to me. Since the Festool Guide Stop is only $63, I decided to stick with that.
Regards,
Dan.
Scrap said:
Does Festool have a solution for making perfect dadoes every time? If so what is that solution?
I think the Festool guide rail used with a router is pretty good. Are you specifically talking about making dados of varying widths, ie for under sized or oversized thickness stock that cannot be matched in one pass with a router bit? In that case, my choice would be the MFS.
That's the one. Thanks.BarryL said:Its not Micro Fence is it? (Or something like that...)
Eli,Eli said:Scrap said:
Does Festool have a solution for making perfect dadoes every time? If so what is that solution?
I think the Festool guide rail used with a router is pretty good. Are you specifically talking about making dados of varying widths, ie for under sized or oversized thickness stock that cannot be matched in one pass with a router bit? In that case, my choice would be the MFS.
Thanks. I had forgotten about the MFS. I think the MFS is one of the nicer hidden "gems" in the Festool system. I'm trying to decide what combination base system plus extra rails to get.
Regards,
Dan.
Jerry Work has some examples of dado and sliding dovetail machining that may be germaine to this discussion. They are in either his MFT or MFS presentations, which I would suggest as 'required reading' for anyone wanting to explore the advantages of using the Festool system. For example, I find his recommendation of simultaneous positioning of components needing matched grooves to be as important or even more important than being able to control the exact width of a groove in 'no-brainer' fashion. Having said that, I also find the fine adjuster used on the guiderail mounted OF1010 to be superb. Some of the guys prefer the OF1400 adjuster. Either way, it is quite easy to control groove width, be it dado or dovetail using the Festool guiderail with the appropriate adjuster. It is simply good technique to also align matching parts in a manner that assures proper spacing of said grooves, guaranteeing easy and true assemblies.
Jerry's articles are available at Festool's website or through this forum. Someone will post the link, I'm sure. For me, I keep printed copies in my own little notebook to peruse anytime I might need inspiration and am not at the computer.
An added thought: I am willing to bet Jerry used good machining techique BF. There are certainly other reasonable ways to control groove width and to lay out panels for accurate work. I think his point is that Festool makes it all possible in an integrated single system that also happens to bring significantly more utility and versatility to the fore. I don't think he would object to that summary of his opinion.
Barry, MicroFence does offer a way to use their system with a Festool guiderail. The router will be on the other side of the rail and will rest totally on the workpiece. Some prefer this. It is not a cheaper way to go but the adjuster mechanism is first rate and the default system is in inches. To each his own.
Jerry's articles are available at Festool's website or through this forum. Someone will post the link, I'm sure. For me, I keep printed copies in my own little notebook to peruse anytime I might need inspiration and am not at the computer.
An added thought: I am willing to bet Jerry used good machining techique BF. There are certainly other reasonable ways to control groove width and to lay out panels for accurate work. I think his point is that Festool makes it all possible in an integrated single system that also happens to bring significantly more utility and versatility to the fore. I don't think he would object to that summary of his opinion.
Barry, MicroFence does offer a way to use their system with a Festool guiderail. The router will be on the other side of the rail and will rest totally on the workpiece. Some prefer this. It is not a cheaper way to go but the adjuster mechanism is first rate and the default system is in inches. To each his own.
Daviddubya
Member
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2007
- Messages
- 704
Dan Clark said:...However, please keep EZ out of the dicussions, even as an example....
Dan - Don't you think you are going just a bit overboard??? I do.
Dan Clark said:Eli,
First, my apologies. Your post was NOT the reason I posted. I saw NOTHING wrong with your post. I wanted to let the new members know that discussions involving EZ products are a sore subject with many people and that those discussions are specifically covered by FOG rules.
In many cases, EZ representatives use EZ vs Festool threads are thinly disguised marketing presentations. What may start with an innocent question quickly turns ugly. If anyone is interested, PM me and I'll point you to several threads on other forums that are rather bad examples of these marketing tactics.
Regards,
Dan.
I'm very familiar with the ones on the Journal of Light Constructions finish carpentry forum and Fine Homebuildings Breaktime forum. The EZ inventor has basically been banned from each. Anyone that just joins the discussion must agree or he'll be verbally assaulted. When I saw the first post here and that they were very new, my first thought was it was an EZ free marketing assault. For those that don't know, there are a very very high number of threads at other sites that are started with a question about which to buy, EZ or Festool, etc. Then a few people post in a way that makes it very obvious that its a post planted to get free marketing. As Dan said, there is one side (guess which one) that gets very nasty even with the most benign comments about EZ.
I personally will not buy a single thing from EZ because of my experiences in those threads and seeing how the inventor handles himself. I praise some festool and criticize others, they are only tools and they certainly are not all perfect.
Forrest Anderson
Member
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- Jan 23, 2007
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- 1,072
Daviddubya said:Dan Clark said:...However, please keep EZ out of the dicussions, even as an example....
Dan - Don't you think you are going just a bit overboard??? I do.
In my opinion, Dan was quite right to remind members about Rule No 8. In other general-purpose woodworking forums I have seen flare-ups time and time again about three subjects - EZ Smart, Festool and SawStop. Whenever these products are discussed, the thread often heads downhill fast. Feelings can run so high that often the thread can get locked, and some members can get banned.
Recognising the potential upset that might hit FOG if EZ Smart was discussed, Matthew had the foresight to write a rule which gave quidelines for such discussions, which starts "Topics dealing with 'Festool versus EZ Smart' will be closely monitored" and ends "If you do wish to raise this subject, please do so only in the "Off-Topic" area".
As this rule may have been missed by many members, Dan was simply bringing the rule to our attention. He started his post with "Please read the the forum rules here:http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=11.0", and ended it with "Please proceed with caution". In my opinion, this was a sensible thing to do, and in no way do I consider it (or the original rule) as being over-the-top. If he hadn't jumped in to bring the rule to the attention of members, I might well have done so myself!
Forrest
I understand all that jazz, but this topic was never intended to debate which system was better. I never asked for comparisons and I never asked how anybody felt about the competitor at all.
The problem is that both parties, whether EZ or Festool users are TOO emotionally attached to their tools. I couldn't care less what anybody else thinks about my tools why do so many of you? Its all childish nonsense if you ask me, but whatever.
Thanks for those who answered my questions. For those who couldn't help but to keep bringing up the competitors in a bad light, all I can say about that is that you are just as bad.
I was told that this was the place to get answers about Festool products, I was NOT told that this was the place to get lectured about the way I asked my questions.
If you guys can't handle people saying bad things about you, then maybe the internet isn't the right place for you.
Again thanks to all those who helped, even if you lectured me in the process.
The problem is that both parties, whether EZ or Festool users are TOO emotionally attached to their tools. I couldn't care less what anybody else thinks about my tools why do so many of you? Its all childish nonsense if you ask me, but whatever.
Thanks for those who answered my questions. For those who couldn't help but to keep bringing up the competitors in a bad light, all I can say about that is that you are just as bad.
I was told that this was the place to get answers about Festool products, I was NOT told that this was the place to get lectured about the way I asked my questions.
If you guys can't handle people saying bad things about you, then maybe the internet isn't the right place for you.
Again thanks to all those who helped, even if you lectured me in the process.
Scrap,Scrap said:I understand all that jazz, but this topic was never intended to debate which system was better. I never asked for comparisons and I never asked how anybody felt about the competitor at all.
The problem is that both parties, whether EZ or Festool users are TOO emotionally attached to their tools. I couldn't care less what anybody else thinks about my tools why do so many of you? Its all childish nonsense if you ask me, but whatever.
Thanks for those who answered my questions. For those who couldn't help but to keep bringing up the competitors in a bad light, all I can say about that is that you are just as bad.
I was told that this was the place to get answers about Festool products, I was NOT told that this was the place to get lectured about the way I asked my questions.
If you guys can't handle people saying bad things about you, then maybe the internet isn't the right place for you.
Again thanks to all those who helped, even if you lectured me in the process.
Interesting post. As I and others have said, this has nothing to do with competitors (plural) or bias towards Festool tools. Nor does it matter what someone else thinks of Festool. Everything that has been written here relates to a PARTICULAR competitor and his marketing tactics. It relates to disrupting forums for the purpose of selling their products.
Here is a link to a recent thread (10/28/07) on the JLCOnline Forums where that company leaped in the middle of a thread with their typical marketing tactics:http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39592. This thread has NOTHING to do with Festool. Yet the tactics are the same and the results are the same - the moderator was forced to close the thread.
FYI, you should know that the moderator in question is one of the most admired people in his profession.
Have a nice day.
Dan.
p.s., the fun begins at post 23.
Brad Evans
Member
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2007
- Messages
- 75
>>> Dan - Don't you think you are going just a bit overboard??? I do.
Agreed...
Agreed...
This thread is continuing to spiral downward . . . ironically, just as Dan was trying to avoid.
One could make the argument that Dan is going a bit overboard, but quite frankly, I have to disagree. Perhaps the diplomatic thing for Scrap to do is just accept the fact that he innocently, and quite inadvertently, stepped on a few toes. As a newcomer, unfamiliar with the 'culture' of any new site, that is what I would do. Unfortunately, he has chosen to continue 'pushing back'. Daviddubya tried to explain some of the reasoning behind Dan's point of view, but apparently that's not good enough -- Scrap's gotta push back once again. So just as Dan feared . . . . . . .
I have to comment on a very similar situation in a variety of boating threads. There is an anchor mfg who has used identical tactics described here about EZ. Everywhere this guy shows up, a huge flame war erupts, and he gets kicked off the site. He continues to re-subscribe at intervals using different names, but it soon becomes apparent what is going on. He goes as far as 'paraphrasing' boating magazine reviews, which are supposedly 'independent', but by the time he gets done massaging the data, surprise, his products always come out on top!
I really don't think this is the case with Scrap, but I'd like to suggest that YOU are the newcomer here, so how about showing a little respect until you get a feel for the tone of the FOG forums? Just lower your blood pressure a little, and don't interpret every little comment as a personal attack on you. Try to acknowledge that fact, that whether you knew about it or not, whether you agree with it or not, whether you were asking innocent questions or not (as I believe you were), there HAS been a series of problems in this area, and it IS advisable to proceed with caution.
As I said last night, perhaps everyone should take a deeeeep breath, chill out, sleep on it, and come back tomorrow ready to shake hands and be friends. Maybe we should try it again tonight . . ?
Ed Gallaher
One could make the argument that Dan is going a bit overboard, but quite frankly, I have to disagree. Perhaps the diplomatic thing for Scrap to do is just accept the fact that he innocently, and quite inadvertently, stepped on a few toes. As a newcomer, unfamiliar with the 'culture' of any new site, that is what I would do. Unfortunately, he has chosen to continue 'pushing back'. Daviddubya tried to explain some of the reasoning behind Dan's point of view, but apparently that's not good enough -- Scrap's gotta push back once again. So just as Dan feared . . . . . . .
I have to comment on a very similar situation in a variety of boating threads. There is an anchor mfg who has used identical tactics described here about EZ. Everywhere this guy shows up, a huge flame war erupts, and he gets kicked off the site. He continues to re-subscribe at intervals using different names, but it soon becomes apparent what is going on. He goes as far as 'paraphrasing' boating magazine reviews, which are supposedly 'independent', but by the time he gets done massaging the data, surprise, his products always come out on top!
I really don't think this is the case with Scrap, but I'd like to suggest that YOU are the newcomer here, so how about showing a little respect until you get a feel for the tone of the FOG forums? Just lower your blood pressure a little, and don't interpret every little comment as a personal attack on you. Try to acknowledge that fact, that whether you knew about it or not, whether you agree with it or not, whether you were asking innocent questions or not (as I believe you were), there HAS been a series of problems in this area, and it IS advisable to proceed with caution.
As I said last night, perhaps everyone should take a deeeeep breath, chill out, sleep on it, and come back tomorrow ready to shake hands and be friends. Maybe we should try it again tonight . . ?
Ed Gallaher
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