Hardwood panel doors: To batten or not to batten?

[4nthony]

I'm about to start the doors and drawer fronts on my credenza project. The plan is to use 4/4 quartersawn white oak milled down to 3/4".

The doors will be a simple panel construction, inset, and roughly 14" W x 19" H. I was watching one of Keith Johnson's videos where he goes through the process of using battens on the back of his doors to keep them flat during seasonal movement.

I was looking online at other hardwood furniture and noticed some use battens on their doors while others do not.

What are you thoughts on battens? Is it best to be safe and always install them to guarantee the doors remain flat? Or are they something that can be left off in regions where there isn't much humidity?

Door build starts around 10:15=668s

As for grain orientation, I'm still not sure. I like the look of both vertical grain and continuous horizontal grain so it may just come down to a coin flip. But, for truly continuous grain, I'll need 13' boards which may be harder to source

 

[ChuckM]

Snip. Or are they something that can be left off in regions where there isn't much humidity?[/i]

To me, this is the key to deciding whether it's worth the trouble of putting battens on the doors. If there's a serious doubt that the humidity changes may be drastic enough, I'd recommend the additional work. If not, that is partly why quartersawn wood is used.

As for grain orientation, I'm totally fine with the vertical one, especially if costs are considered.

 

[mrFinpgh]

I'd err on the side of caution if using solid wood for a slab style door.  Walzcraft attaches battens with screws, which seems like easy insurance. It doesn't take much and any cupping is going to make your reveals look a little off. Twist is going to be another potential bummer if any starts to happen later on.

Are you able to mill 14"W panels? 

Steve Latta has suggested you should drop your rough stock from a distance onto the floor - the theory being this releases any tension in the wood and helps w/ the milling/acclimating process.

 

[ChuckM]

I remember reading Latta's article in Fine Woodworking (a decade ago or so). But I don't know any woodworkers or furniture makers who drop their rough lumber intentionally as part of their stock preparation, and I haven't seen any scientific studies that prove his theory.

 

[Michael Kellough]

If you could make a piece with continuous figure nearly 13 feet long with the grain matched as well as the example above, that would be awesome. A series of vertical grain 1/4 sawn WO panels would be very nice but not as awesome.

Solid wood panels with the grain oriented vertically would be much less problematic both in construction and warping.

The appealing prospect of the long horizontal figure would make me seriously consider mdf panels, framed in the same hardwood, and veneered, assuming you could get a long enough veneer.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

If you could make a piece with continuous figure nearly 13 feet long with the grain matched as well as the example above, that would be awesome. A series of vertical grain 1/4 sawn WO panels would be very nice but not as awesome.

Solid wood panels with the grain oriented vertically would be much less problematic both in construction and warping.

The appealing prospect of the long horizontal figure would make me seriously consider mdf panels, framed in the same hardwood, and veneered, assuming you could get a long enough veneer.

To get this look, I would do the same. ^^^
Then you can skip the battons and never worry about twisting, cupping, warping, etc.

The question of humidity is not so much about the actual level, but the amount of change.
If you are in an arid/desert area, where there is minimal change, it might be ok. Pretty much anywhere that requires heat in the winter, especially forced air furnaces or fireplaces, you are likely t see a big swing in humidity levels. Shrinking and swelling don't necessarily mean warping, but it could. "Theoretically" it will go back when the humidity is a the point when it was flat in the first place. So, if the movement is minimal and you can live with it for part of the year....

I think I would go for the veneer myself. You won't have endgrain on the edges of the doors that way either.

 

[Oldwood]

I would also go with veneer.

I have seen too may problems with flat solid wood doors.

Laying up veneers can get expensive if you contract it out and labour intensive if you don't

If you can find some nice sequence matched veneers on PB core you could match from the middle out and get a nice pattern. If you go with a banding just wider than a small radius it will not be as noticeable.

Looks like a fun project.

 

[4nthony]

The carcass and shelves are made from rift sawn white oak ply with hardwood edge banding. I initially thought about using plywood for the doors and fronts, but I haven't really done many projects with hardwood and was thinking this would be a good -- albeit pricey -- introduction. Simple panel construction. A few passes on the jointer/planer, Dominos for alignment, glue, clamp, done.

The question of humidity is not so much about the actual level, but the amount of change.
If you are in an arid/desert area, where there is minimal change, it might be ok. Pretty much anywhere that requires heat in the winter, especially forced air furnaces or fireplaces, you are likely t see a big swing in humidity levels. Shrinking and swelling don't necessarily mean warping, but it could. "Theoretically" it will go back when the humidity is a the point when it was flat in the first place.

We're near the coast so there's moisture in the air and we use a forced air furnace year-round to try and maintain a consistent 66-68° temp (no A/C so indoor temps rise in the summer but tend to average out around 72-74°). The thermometer in the room where the credenza is hung recorded a humidity range from 43% to 71%. The walls are pickwick paneling and the more I look around, the more I can see movement between the panel seams where the paint has split.

I'm ok with some wood expansion/contraction so maybe I will add battens to keep things flat and also for the experience of making them. In the video, he secures his battens at the top for the wood to expand towards the bottom. My doors will be inset on all 4 sides so I'm guessing I'll secure my battens in the middle to let them expand in both directions.

Veneered MDF would be a good, stable option. I've never used veneer so that would potentially be another great learning experience.

I haven't made too much progress since my previous question, but was able to knock out a few drawer boxes. We've had a lot of rain here in California lately and I transport material on the roof of my car. Whenever I had time to grab materials, it was raining. Anyway, this is where I'm currently at with my project:

If you could make a piece with continuous figure nearly 13 feet long with the grain matched as well as the example above, that would be awesome. A series of vertical grain 1/4 sawn WO panels would be very nice but not as awesome.

Solid wood panels with the grain oriented vertically would be much less problematic both in construction and warping.

The appealing prospect of the long horizontal figure would make me seriously consider mdf panels, framed in the same hardwood, and veneered, assuming you could get a long enough veneer.

Agreed on the vertical grain. It's nice, but doesn't have the impact of a large, continuous horizontal grain.

So at this point, since I want to stick with hardwood, I'll add the battens for the added experience and just to keep the panels flat.

Thanks for the feedback!

[cool]

 

[mrFinpgh]

I would agree with some of the other folks on here re: veneer.  You can glue up each door separately and it wouldn't really take too much work to put together a clamps+cauls style press to handle a 22 x 22 panel.  If you have a vacuum pump, a small bag isn't prohibitive (cheaper than clamps..). 

You might have some challenges sourcing long enough material (156+ inches is pretty long, and the ends of a sheet of veneer tend to have some cracks and splits), but the effect would be excellent.  You'd have a lot more consistency in your selection of grain as opposed to solid material.

 

[4nthony]

Are you able to mill 14"W panels? 

My J/P combo only has 12" capacity so I'll be gluing up multiple boards to achieve the dimension I need.

Steve Latta has suggested you should drop your rough stock from a distance onto the floor - the theory being this releases any tension in the wood and helps w/ the milling/acclimating process.

I found a reference to the Steve Latta article but the actual article no longer mentions dropping:
https://woodworking.stackexchange.c...pping-boards-really-relieve-internal-tensionshttps://www.finewoodworking.com/2013/02/07/frame-and-panel-doors-that-stay-flat

Edit: the "dropping" is mentioned in the PDF, not on the website.

 

[ChuckM]

Wait a minute. If dropping the boards on the floor really did the trick as he suggested, why was he advocating for frame and panel doors in the article?

Anyway, he or anybody else could do whatever they want with their lumber, just make sure the 8/4 doesn't land on the foot!!! [tongue] [tongue] [tongue]

 

[mrFinpgh]

My J/P combo only has 12" capacity so I'll be gluing up multiple boards to achieve the dimension I need.

This would make me lean strongly into veneering as an option.

My reasoning for that is :  when those panels get glued up, the odds of a perfectly flat and even thickness panel aren't going to be great.  So you probably need to think about gluing up a little oversize and bringing it down to the final thickness.  Progressively will likely mean greater stability.

If you had 15" planer and a 12" jointer, you could work around that with a piece of MDF and removing the guard on your jointer.

Alternatively, you can use a plane to bring everything square, flat, and out of twist, but that's a fair amount of technique.  If you're comfortable with handplanes, you can likely get very close to flat and within a couple thou consistency of each panel.  It will probably move more than that, and w/ a few mm reveal between the door and frame that's not going to bug you too much.

With veneers, you would have a different challenge in learning to joint + seam the veneers, planning your layout, and getting a feel for the lamination process. Edge banding wouldn't be a big leap in terms of what you clearly can already do very well.

For a door this size, I don't think glue is going to be a big deal. You could use a PVA veneer glue, epoxy, PU, or UF and they should all be fine for your purposes.

The hardest part if you don't have a pump is the actual pressing.. you need a lot of clamps and a lot of cauls to get pressure everywhere, and that can be a logistical challenge if you don't have a willing helper.  But even that is solvable with some fixturing to hold things in place.

Also, the horizontal lines of the room would be complemented with a horizontal grain on a horizontal object.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=75283]4nthony[/member] if you are just thinking about using hardwood for the doors as an "exercise" or "experience", you might want to tackle frame and panel first. The panels will be inherently smaller, fitting your planer better (maybe?) and having the rails to keep them flat.

Veneering is not that bad though. You can make the panels from MDF and edge them with the same hardwood strips as the cabinet parts, then veneer over the edges. If you use "paperbacked" veneer, rather than the two-ply wood backed stuff, you'll never even see the seams at the corners. A slight hand break of the corners with a sanding block and it disappears.

I'll take some pics of the parts I have been working on tomorrow and post them here.
The two most recent jobs I have been working on are both veneer. One is a vertical-blinds looking room divider from  Rift-sawn White Oak and the other is a bunch of wall panels that are some very clear white Maple.

I'll show you the Oak ones and you'll swear that they are solid wood 5/4 by 4" boards.

 

[4nthony]

[member=75283]4nthony[/member] if you are just thinking about using hardwood for the doors as an "exercise" or "experience", you might want to tackle frame and panel first. The panels will be inherently smaller, fitting your planer better (maybe?) and having the rails to keep them flat.

It's just a personal goal to start using more hardwood in my projects, familiarizing myself with wood movement and acclimation, and ultimately doing more visible joinery (dovetails, box & finger joints, splines, etc).

As for these doors and drawer fronts, I'm just planning to mill some boards down to a consistent thickness, add some dominos for alignment, and glue them together (screen grab from the above video):

If I'm able to find 13' boards for continuous grain, I'll cut them down to manageable lengths (5', 5', 3'), label them, then begin milling. I know the order of operation I need to use to maintain a consistent thickness.

I should be able to find boards at least 8-10" wide and will have no problem milling those on the jointer/planer (A3 31). If the 5 footers have some bow, I'll cut them closer to their finished length and mill appropriately.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Here is an example of what it can look like. Great application for the MFK700 too.

 

[afish]

I vote veneer too but I can appreciate your wanting to expand your knowledge base.    Either way you go it looks like it will be good looking project.

 

[4nthony]

Here is an example of what it can look like. Great application for the MFK700 too.

Can't argue with that. It looks really good.