Help!! Finishing Soft Maple Frame

[dltflt]

I am finishing a Maple frame and I applied a coat of sanding sealer last night.  This morning a took a quick couple of passes with 220 grit then applied my stain.  It came out blotchy and I don't understand why.  Can anyone give me some hints.  Did I over sand?  I have sanded it down again and applied another coat of sanding sealer and waiting for it to dry and some help from all you professionals and hobbyist.

 

[Chris Hughes]

I start with, DON"T STAIN MAPLE!  I know there are answers out there however, I don't know them.

 

[dltflt]

Thanks Chris but not staining is not an option.  I was contracted to make this frame and stain to match the existing furniture in that room.  I made a small sample as a test is it came out perfect but now that I'm doing the real thing I'm having issues.

 

[Chris Hughes]

I know that there are some stains that sit on top of the wood as opposed to penetrating stains, though I've never used them. 

 

[mwhafner]

I have never had a lot of luck with standard sealers.  I generally use a light coat of shellac, and either sand lightly or use steel wool before I apply the stain.  Remember, you will not get the stain penetration once you seal it, so it may take multiple coats or a darker stain.

If you can get the color right with a Danish oil, that is the easiest route.  Just don't let it sit too long. 

Gel stains also seem to work a little better on blotch prone woods. 

 

[chrisrosenb]

I have never had a lot of luck with standard sealers.  I generally use a light coat of shellac, and either sand lightly or use steel wool before I apply the stain.  Remember, you will not get the stain penetration once you seal it, so it may take multiple coats or a darker stain.

If you can get the color right with a Danish oil, that is the easiest route.  Just don't let it sit too long. 

Gel stains also seem to work a little better on blotch prone woods. 

I have had pretty much the same results. I have never had good luck with sealers or stain controllers.
The thicker the stain the more even color I get.

 

[rnt80]

I am finishing a Maple frame and I applied a coat of sanding sealer last night.  This morning a took a quick couple of passes with 220 grit then applied my stain.  It came out blotchy and I don't understand why.  Can anyone give me some hints.  Did I over sand?  I have sanded it down again and applied another coat of sanding sealer and waiting for it to dry and some help from all you professionals and hobbyist.

Don, what was the highest grit you used on the maple before you applied the sealer?  In my experience, the higher I go the less blotchy the stain will be.  Additionally, when using wood that tends to get blotchy I will sometimes apply two coats of sealer.  Of course, when you do this you can't really get a dark color with the stain.  I'll typically use glaze on top of the stain in those cases to achieve the color I'm looking for.  It's a longer process but I end up with a more even color.
Your other option is to use a toner instead of a stain.  It will just sit on top of the wood and then you don't have to worry about blotchiness.

 

[dltflt]

I am finishing a Maple frame and I applied a coat of sanding sealer last night.  This morning a took a quick couple of passes with 220 grit then applied my stain.  It came out blotchy and I don't understand why.  Can anyone give me some hints.  Did I over sand?  I have sanded it down again and applied another coat of sanding sealer and waiting for it to dry and some help from all you professionals and hobbyist.

Don, what was the highest grit you used on the maple before you applied the sealer?  In my experience, the higher I go the less blotchy the stain will be.  Additionally, when using wood that tends to get blotchy I will sometimes apply two coats of sealer.  Of course, when you do this you can't really get a dark color with the stain.  I'll typically use glaze on top of the stain in those cases to achieve the color I'm looking for.  It's a longer process but I end up with a more even color.
Your other option is to use a toner instead of a stain.  It will just sit on top of the wood and then you don't have to worry about blotchiness.

Hi Russ,
I sanded to 220.  Do you think sanding the sealer to 400 would help or not?  The glaze would be my last option.

 

[mouppe]

Do you need to use a sealer? Maple is a closed-grain wood. I would have sanded it smooth and then gone straight to a wipe-on stain such as Minwax, and then applied a top finish such as a gloss, polyurethane etc.

Richard.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Wood gets blotchy because it has varying density.  This is particularly true of hardwoods that grow quickly for part of the year and more slowly later, like maple.  Stain is pigment based, relatively large particles of color bearing 'stuff' that lodge in the pores of the wood.  More stuff lodges in the open grain than in the denser grain, creating blotch.  The various sealers act to seal up the pores and prevent excessive amounts of pigment from lodging in open pores.  Depth of penetration isn't really much of an issue.

The only 'fool proof' method is to seal the bejeebers out of the wood so nothing lodges in the pores and proceed with glazes.  Glazes are simply products formulated to go on over sealed wood.  They may be diluted stains or dyes.  But they go on evenly.  The trick is to find a mix of a glaze and a tint (another glaze, pigment powder, japan color, paint, etc) that produces the color you want.  Its tedious and time consuming. 

One possible 'hail Mary' play would be to true a glue size.  I have had good results with this technique on maple.  Mix one part regular glue (titebond, elmer's, whatever) to 10 parts water.  Wipe on a test piece with a rag.  Let it dry thoroughly and sand lightly (the water will raise the grain).  Clean off the sanding dust then try your stain.  Might work.

Wish I had a happier, easier answer, but blotch is hard to avoid.  Another tactic would be to try a different piece of maple...

 

[wnagle]

Charles Neil has a new product for blotch control that looks promising.  I have a some but haven't tried it yet.  Her's a link to the site and video.

http://shop.charlesneilwoodworking.com/Charles-Neils-Pre-Color-Conditioner--Blotch-Control_p_47.html



Blotch Control: CN's Pre-Color Conditioner

 

[dltflt]

Thanks guys for all the options, I knew I would get several ideas from this group.  Wayne thanks for the video I'm going to try Charles product.  I wanted to get this project done this weekend but I willing to be late to get the better finish.

 

[wnagle]

I plan to use it on cherry on the project I'm working on with no stain, just general finishes oil arm-r-seal on as a top coat.  I will do some test panels first. 

If I were staining maple, I'd definitely do some tests on some that appeared more blotch prone to see if It needed 2 or 3 coats of the blotch control and then also test the stains for the desired color.  What looks promising to me with this product is it's apparently enhanced ability for the product to absorb stain while keeping the wood sealed at the same time.  From the video, the stain looks to color well but a different shade than you would get on bare wood.  So testing for a desired color may take a little work.

I bought 4 quarts to try it out.  As they say, "the proofs in the pudding", so we will see.

 

[dltflt]

I ended up buying 2 quarts due to the cost of shipping.  I hope it gets here by the end of the week so I get this job behind me.  I sure hope it works as well as the video shows.

 

[woodwreck]

I plan to use it on cherry   [unsure]  on the project I'm working on with no stain, just general finishes oil arm-r-seal on as a top coat.  I will do some test panels first.  

Re the cherry - cherry is more unique, I suggest you use wash coat of shellac (50:50) - numerous articles in FWWing Mag on blotchy cherry. See also Canadian Woodworking forum discussed in detail. If I can make it work I can post a pic. Let me know if interested.  Then use Watco oil finish.

 

[woodwreck]

​

Thanks guys for all the options, I knew I would get several ideas from this group.  Wayne thanks for the video I'm going to try Charles product.  I wanted to get this project done this weekend but I willing to be late to get the better finish.

Having discussed this last night I have a 6" x 18" piece of maple, I purchased a pint of the product you are using and have applied it. I will try to post a pic tonight.
I suggest:
1. sand to min 220 per manuf instr. over that makes little difference - maybe 300 at most
2. apply stain conditioner (aka blotch control)  per manuf. inst.
3. apply stain - per someone's comment above, the water base product in use here has relatively superficial penetration, dries largely on surface, and fast (!). The fact that you have been able to remove it by sanding relatively easily, demonstrates that.The purpose of any stain is to accentuate the grain appropriately. This does that very well, not to be confused with blotching, although some blotching will occur, unique to each piece of wood. The furniture you are charged with to emulate was almost certainly sprayed in manuf., and will always be different.
4 Use sanding sealer only after all staining is done. Then use final clear topcoat as desired.

My board is divided in three sections - stained, sanding sealer coat, and clear gloss on top of sanding sealer. Will try to post pic tonight.