high tolerance square cutting on MFT3 -?

P

panelchat

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2009
Messages
190
Sorry for the long post, but this is very specific... [bite tongue]

I'm considering buying an MFT 3 for use in cabinet making and see that a number of users have some issues with repeat square cuts.

Some context: I've worked in various cabinet shops, and had my own small operation, and now am looking to get back in to residential cabinetry/casework part time for some added income (and because I keep buying Festool gear and need to do something with it other than... making more shelves... for even more festool gear... [drooling]). 99% of this work will be in sheet goods for euro style cabinets or custom casework. This time I'm doing an experiment: use my TS55 as the core tool, and as a replacement for a highly dialed in table saw, or a panel saw, that produces very square, repeat components effortlessly. I am looking for a way to get VERY square cuts within tolerances used for 32mm/Euro box cabinet making to avoid compounding error problems when laterally stacking multiple cabinets in kitchen installs, etc. Not the usual "square" we use effectively in other carpentry.

Found a very informative MFT3 review elsewhere praising the product but cautioning the use of TS55/MFT3 as a replacement for free standing machines saying that the guide rail setting tends to go out easily and often due to the racking of the table. This was the clearest explanation after hours of searching on the supposed square problem.

Finally my question (thanks for reading this far!)- I'm believing the racking claim here, and am wondering if this can be avoided by simply folding up the MFT3 legs and mounting it on a flat, stable work surface. This should stop any racking. Using it without the legs, with the option of dismounting it and taking it to sites when needed.

Any thoughts on this? After years of using free standing machines, I'm very curious about how far the track saw concept can go...

Thanks!!!
 
There are tons of threads and posts here about building a stand that the MFT/3 sits on in the folded position.  There are benefits and disadvantages depending on your situation.

I would love to know where I could read that review just because that seems very unusual.  The issues I remember reading about with accuracy changes were related to the MFT 1080 or MFT 800 both of which were discontinued years ago.

You are a very detailed guy so here is a link to the ekat page for the parts of the MFT/3 so you can look at how it is constructed:  MFT/3 Ekat Page

Peter
 
I am just a hobbyist.  But have  some professional time under my belt.  My current project is building my kitchen cabinets. Along with remodeling the whole house. 

  I have a MFT/3,  MFT 1080 and MFT 800.  The MFT 800 holds my Kapex.  So that stays in one location and never moves.  But,  since my wife likes to park her
car in the garage, I am moving the MFT/3 and MFT 1080 all the time.  I do not have the stabilizer bars on the MFT/3.  And I have never had a problem with either of the tables racking.  They stay in my garage year round.  So they go thru the temp changes with the seasons.  I check the MFT/3 for square when I move it with a Woodpecker 1281 square.  It has yet to move on me with moving it for a thousand times.  The only thing I found bad about the MFT/3 is the metal tab that hold the rail in place for making cuts.  The metal tab cut into the bottom of the aluminum slot where the tap sits.  This created slop and I had to move the tab over to adjust for the slop.  But a guy on Ebay has made a plastic insert to eliminate the slop.  If you buy a MFT/3 (which I highly recommend) check out the plastic insert.  The insert will get rid of any slop.  I believe a Festool dealer is carrying this product but I'm not sure who.

If you are going to use the track saw, I would recommend the MFT/3.  To me, it completes the Festool system.  It is a must have for the TS saw.  Along with
the Parallel Guides if you are planning on using the system for cabinet making.

MFT/3, Parallel Guides and a TS55 is a sweet combo for ripping sheet goods!

My only problem I have with the Festool system now is when I connect two 1400 rails together.  I'm starting to bow in the middle where the two rails meet.
So I would also recommend a long FS3000 (118") rail to eliminate the bow from going two rails.  It's a little pain to have to double check to make sure everything is straight.  Instead of measuring and marking each side of the sheet,  I have to make two extra marks in the middle of the sheet to make sure I have no bow in the two rails. 

So for me, the repeatability with the Parallel guides and MFT/3 table is hard to beat.  I could not see myself building my cabinets with the 10" table saw I have.  I lay my sheet goods down on a table with 2 inch Styrofoam and can cut a sheet of plywood with out having to have a in feed or out feed table.
The track saw makes it a lot safer for me to break down sheet goods. 

Hope this helps. 

Eric
 
The MFT/3 square "problem" comes from the lack of Festool documentation on how to set it up correctly. I personnally had that problem and found ways to work around it. The day I learn how to correctly set up the table The problem disappear.

I would recommend you take one of Festool class on cabinet making. They don't teach how to make cabinets, they teach you how to use the Festool system  to it's maximum potential. I took the 2 day class in Las Vegas with Steve and it brought me a wealth of information.

Bruce
 
Here is the plastic insert that removes slop between the pin and the slot in the underside of the guide rail that was mentioned above. 

This slop can also be eliminated by torquing the guide rail -- mounting the guide rail to the support bracket such that it fits onto the pin with pressure against on side of the slot. 

 
B,

I would love to learn what you experienced so that if this comes up again I can help out others.  If you prefer a PM that would be great also.

Peter
 
Peter,

The following three video, from one of Steve Bace classes show the proper way to set up the MFT/3. The order of each step is critical and having a good large woodpecker square makes it fail proof.

http://m.youtube.com/?reason=8&rdm=7445#/watch?v=e0-zaFiHaLQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3De0-zaFiHaLQ

http://m.youtube.com/?reason=8&rdm=3236#/watch?v=UG-gGSlrajE&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DUG-

http://m.youtube.com/?reason=8&rdm=7541#/watch?v=ESww6tQ16DY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DESww6tQ16DY

I practice this set quite a few times and now have no problem setting up a square MFT/3 in about 5.

Bruce

 
I think that I may have misread the original post.  I was of the understanding that there was an impression that the table itself racks (becomes a parallelogram) and it had something to do with the legs - which is why the OP wanted to eliminate the leg usage.

The videos that BWH (Bruce) posted were from an end user class in Lebanon and were taken by a participant.  I learned how to adjust my MFT/3 at that class although I now also set mine in relation to the holes using Qwas dogs.  I don't have much play at the front connector and don't have an issue of adjustments getting out of square once set.

Every time I see those videos I envision my Mom saying:  "Peter - Your posture is atrocious.  Stand up straight.  Put your arms to your side...."  I'm the guy wearing the lime green shirt in the background.  Is there any other color?   [embarassed]

Peter
 
Peter,

I had the same initial understanding you had, that the table top became an parallelogram when you drag it on it's legs. The build of the table prohibits this unless, it was drop on a corner from a serious height and it would be a permanent parallelogram. My suspicion was if you hadn't set up the table correctly, making sure your rail clamps are properly tighten they could vibrate out of position when drag around.

My initial problem was not setting up the rail correctly as Steve demonstrated and not tightening the clamping element of the angle unit, in the proper order. I wish my store rep would have shown me the proper way to set up the table on day one, it would have saved me a lot of frustration.

Bruce
 
Hey thanks everybody for the replies. Its always tricky to deal with the term "square" as it means different things for different jobs/trades/materials. I have more formal training in machining than woodworking so I'm coming from a different angle here than a lot of people. But for euro box/kitchen cabinets the high tolerances really come in to play for me- way more than when I'm building single cabinets, simple shelves and things like this.

I think my next line of inquiry is simple- can you set up the MFT and cut a medium size panel component, say 24"x30", and carefully cross measure it with a tape or other tool, and get diagonal measurements with no discernable difference? Like say less than 0.01mm, or 1/256"? (that's a weird number- I use it as half of a 1/128th, which is then half of 1/64th, then half of 1/32"..) I'm thinking these numbers approach what a traditional panel saw does. Or a very tight table saw setup.

And then can you cut a few dozen of these parts and have them all really identical?

Thanks again for any input. It looks like if I buy it I need to order that guide rail tab at the same time and use it in the initial setup..

Peter- I'll look up that review, I'm wondering if its kosher to cross post someone elses review here without asking.. im probably just too cautious. i can also PM you of course...
 
.01mm is not what I think you are really expecting. That is .0004", or about one quarter or less of a human hair. I think you may have meant .1mm but that is still much less than is necessary for cabinet work. I think .25mm, or .010", is good enough in most cases. You arenot going to do much better than that using a tape anyway. Can you make you components with repeat ability at that level? Yes.
 
greg- thanks, yes that's a typo! and a micrometer or dial caliper measures a hair at about .003"- far bigger than .0004" [blink]
and yes, you quickly run up to the limitations of a tape measure, kinda have to carefully wing it.. at best..

it would be nice if the system had stated tolerances like some other precision products.

part of my concern in all this is that my second TS55, that I use now, came with a bent rail. I found out the hard way, but it was replaced without much fuss.
also- I just spent many hours sorting out a blade to shoe square problem- turned out the blade was square, but the toe in was set at around .75mm out. waaaay too far. apparently from the factory, as the saw has never been dropped/banged. this was leaving panel edges a degree or two off 90, fouling up any tight work i was doing.

a lot of time was lost troubleshooting and dealing with the above two items. the upside is you get to know the tools better...

it sounds as if you set up the MFT3 correctly, in the right sequence, and use that delrin thingy in the rail channel, the system can deliver on being a "portable panel saw"
 
Repeatable accuracy of 1/2 mm can be achieved with the Festool saw, guides, and MFT setup. This is perfectly acceptable for case work. Accuracy beyond this is extremely expensive, and since it offers no real advantage, wasteful. Acquiring, learning to use, and maintaining the devices needed to make high-precision measurements of panel-size workpieces would be in itself a very difficult task.
 
Cross posting like you might do is totally OK.

As others have posted, the accuracy you are looking for might be great as a goal, but in real life wood movement due to temperature and humidity changes will drive you to the loony bin.

One of my friends who I met here installs cabinets in homes and places we would see in in high end coffee table magazines.  The tolerances on those cabinets are nowhere near what you are talking about.

Honestly I think that you are a perfect candidate for testing the 30 day return policy.  Buy it.  Try it.  Bump it around.  Try it again....

All the best.

Peter
 
Peter- Here's that good review, plus comments.

http://www.amazon.com/review/RO3LZELT48WMC/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#RO3LZELT48WMC

I like the writing here and its very helpful that he indicates he's comparing to production shop machinery- gives a lot of clarity.

I studied industrial design in college, so have a keen interest in the integrated system, workflow, safety, ergonomic, and production quality possibilities here. The idea of sidestepping the heavy machinery for cabinet making is compelling and I'm excited to see how far you can go..
 
As one contributor pointed out it is a bit of a red herring to compare the Festool system to a production setup. Even amongst production equipment there are significant variations. One person considers a cabinet saw with in feeds and out feeds a 'production' saw while others only consider Martins or Altendorfs or vertical panel saws in that category. Then there are pressure beam saws and the list goes on and on. The fact remains one can do incredibly accurate and productive work on a job site or in a fixed shop for a relatively small investment, and have a lot of versatility to boot. I doubt any of us here believe the Festool approach is the be-all and end-all answer to higher volume cabinet making, but I also expect even the most jaded skeptic would be amazed what can be done efficiently by a competent user.
 
greg- i agree. i'm focused on this "woodshop without a woodshop" idea. just a small space (i'm in NYC...) with no big investment/free standing machines. i think i'll get the MFT, and see what i can do with it..
 
The technical differences are rather obvious: the "production" system offers economy of scale, based on many identical parts. The "small shop" system (for lack of a better term) offers way more flexibility. I have installed many cabinets and related components that came from high-volume factories. Installation invariably requires last-minute cut-outs for utilities, filler pieces, reinforcements for unusually large or heavy items like sinks and countertops, etc. The materials and the construction tend toward flimsy (will this shelf really support this 200-lb wall oven, plus contents, for 20 years?). Festool equipment makes it possible to do this difficult and exacting site work with accuracy and safety--without dust! I have also built and installed many custom cabinets. The installation is much less frustrating, and the results are decidedly better. It's difficult to compare the costs, because the custom customer is asking for options that are just not available from the factories. Festool equipment has a role to play in the basic construction--in the shop--and a somewhat lesser role to play on site. You mention workflow. This is as critical for the small shop operation as it is for the factory. I work mostly with 3/4 (18mm) PW. I break down a sheet by pulling it off the truck onto saw horses, dressing a long edge with the saw/guide rail, then ripping to width on my sliding table saw. When the rips are all done, I set the squaring frame on the slider, and do the crosscuts. Pretty quick, and I never have to actually pick up a 4x8 sheet. I bet you could get 20 responses from 20 small shop operators like me, with 20 different workflows--just for this one operation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

S
MFT3 squaring best practices?
Replies
14
Views
458
Lincoln
L
S
Advice for next tool purchase : DF 500 or TSO GRS-16 PE v2 and parallel guide
2 3
Replies
43
Views
9K
sebr023
S
J
Rail square with repeat stop vs parrelle guides
Replies
6
Views
14K
GregInVa
G
A
CSC SYS 50 Cuts Square, but not 45
Replies
4
Views
230
Aburk808
A
R
LR 32 for cabinets made with rails and stiles?
Replies
4
Views
179
ReneS
R
Back
Top