Homemade MFT and QWAS dogs

[andy5405]

That link is for a forum that you have to be regestered to see. can you post the pics

Ok, I hadn't thought about it being in a members area. It's a link to a thread where I was posting details about a new workbench I was intending to build. What makes it interesting is that I had decided to use the holes in the top for alignment and cutting purposes and was having no luck sourcing a round top bench dog!!! A poster on that forum pointed me in the direction of FOG and Qwas dogs. I was pleased to see that my concept was indeed proven even though I had intended to deal with the guide rail in a slightly different way. Anyway I shelved my idea back then as I decided it was going to be too much hassle to get the dogs machined.

Over the last few months I haven't been able to decide between a homemade MFT and Qwas dogs or just forking out for an MFT. That was how I was thinking until I was reprimanded on here the other day for a poorly conceived post suggesting that there may be others who had thought of using the MFT holes and dogs for more than clamping. The world is a very big place and only a small proportion of global MFT users will be aware of FOG and TalkFestool. I'm sure there are are thousands of wonderful tips and tricks that people keep to themselves that we would all love to know about.

So I've decided to stick to Plan A and make my own dogs. Here's my original pics.

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[andy5405]

Since I posted those pics I have leant a lot more about the TS55 and uses of the MFT as I had only just bought my TS at the time. I had icluded some Kreg mini track as I wasn't aware how the clamps worked in the holes. I thought they were intended just to use in the guide rail.

I also didn't know an awful lot about bench dogs and had intended to build a 2x2 subframe that would be directly beneath all the holes. I figured that they would need the extra support. I was also going to build the top out of blockboard as it was lighter than MDF.  

My guide rail is intended to rest against the two dogs placed vertically in the holes. The dogs would probably be about 30-40mm high which would allow all sheet materials to be cut. I figured that on most cuts the rail would probably stay in position and if not the clamps could be used to secure it to the bench. I hadn't got round to deciding what height the dogs would be for the rest of the bench. I had decided to make them quite a bit bigger than the holes so they overlap the bench by up to 4mm all round to increase stability and I have thought recently about being able to secure the two used for the rail from underneath.

Oh and I was definitely an MFT virgin as I had designed the whole thing with the idea that the offcut and blade hung over the edge of the bench. I hadn't even thought that people would cut their own bench!!!

Anyway as I said I'm going back to my plan and am in the process of sourcing someone to make the dogs. I'm looking to making a few sets and a few tops so the guys on a UK forum I use can have a play as well.

So that's it really and many thanks to all the info on FOG that has helped me refine my idea. Here's a pic of the dog I have in mind.

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The one remaining thing that does still bug me is how stable a dog of that height will be. It could always be secured from the bottom if I include a threaded bolt in the base and one of those locking nut thingies but that could be tiresome. What I do like about my theory though is that it will be easy to take the guide rail on and off the workpiece and should be easy to locate against the dogs for accurate cuts. I figure that holding the saw and rail together by hand should keep it in place on most cuts and should be no different to using the rail without clamps with the added advantage of being able to apply a sideways force against a fixed object.

 

[Alan m]

i think qwas (steve) is still your best bet for the dogs. he knows what you want and will make them to suite the holes in your table. i bought a set off him and found his service exeptional.

i like the idea of the kreg t rack but i would use the track off of the clamp table.

out feed support is an issue with that design. maybe extend under the rail 5-6 inchs and mount it on a miter saw stand so that you will have slide out extensions.

 

[optimistisch]

@andy5405: You will learn quite fast that the lower diameter has to be a little bit less than 20 mm. I made me some Bench dogs and made the mistake to have the diameter ecaxly 20mm. It is hard to pull the dogs out of the table, Now I would prefer to have the diameter 19,85 mm. 

Ingo

 

[andy5405]

i think qwas (steve) is still your best bet for the dogs. he knows what you want and will make them to suite the holes in your table. i bought a set off him and found his service exeptional.

i like the idea of the kreg t rack but i would use the track off of the clamp table.

out feed support is an issue with that design. maybe extend under the rail 5-6 inchs and mount it on a miter saw stand so that you will have slide out extensions.

I would normally approach Steve to make these dogs but it would be unfair as my motives would not be pure. When I first came up with the idea for my bench it was for my own use and then I got to thinking it had commercial possibilities. That was confirmed when I discovered Qwas dogs. Believe me when I say I have read every post going on here and on Talk Festool re Qwas dogs. One of the things that struck me is that there have been more than a few occasions when the debate had got rather heated about who invented what etc etc.

I'm not sure yet where this project will end up but if it is successful I intend to sell both the dogs and some form of benchtop. I'm acutely aware that any rail/plunge saw is massively enhanced if you have the right cutting table so a low cost top that any chippie could bung on tressles or saw horses coupled with some dogs would have to have some appeal. I also want something big enough that could be used for both ripping and crosscuts without modification. Loads of guys already use an old door or length of worktop bunged on tressles as a site bench. I just want to take it one stage further. I'm not sure Steve would want to help me under those circumstances and I certainly wouldn't blame him either!

Anway the project is a perfect fit for me as I have quite a bit of web expeience having built and run online shops in the past. I have a tendency towards nerdiness which has meant my suntan has suffered over the last few years! I don't really have the US market in mind but I cannot see any reason why Steve would want to help a potential competitor. I think it's fair to say that my cat is well and truly out of the bag now!

 

[andy5405]

@andy5405: You will learn quite fast that the lower diameter has to be a little bit less than 20 mm. I made me some Bench dogs and made the mistake to have the diameter ecaxly 20mm. It is hard to pull the dogs out of the table, Now I would prefer to have the diameter 19,85 mm. 

Ingo

Good point and I have been researchng hole diameter. Interestingly I heard last night that a UK tool store that I have not heard of before are selling bench and rail dogs made by a guy in Germany. I will be ringing them this morning once they open.

 

[AlexThePalex]

One of the things that struck me is that there have been more than a few occasions when the debate had got rather heated about who invented what etc etc.

In 1980 my mother bought my father a Black & Decker Workmate that came with 4 of these bench dogs which even then were already very common:

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Just because some forum member changes the shape a tiny little bit and makes them out of another material doesn't mean he suddenly has a whole new invention at his hands.

 

[andy5405]

One of the things that struck me is that there have been more than a few occasions when the debate had got rather heated about who invented what etc etc.

In 1980 my mother bought my father a Black & Decker Workmate that came with 4 of these bench dogs which even then were already very common:

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Just because some forum member changes the shape a tiny little bit and makes them out of another material doesn't mean he suddenly has a whole new invention at his hands.

I have seen that point put over on more than a few occasions and I think it is a little harsh. I have read pretty much every thread going on this subject and I have absolutely no doubt that Steve with input from quite a few others initially brainstormed and implemented the idea. That is within the confines of users from a few forums.  

What none of us know is what people that don't use forums get up to. It is inconceivable that no-one else spotted the accuracy of the holes on the MFT and began to use them in a similar way.  It was probably already happening all over the world and people just got on and did it without advertising the fact. I know this is possible because it is exactly what I did. I set about on an endless search looking for round top bench dogs so I could try out my idea. That is how I discovered Qwas dogs.

He deserves a lot of credit in my opinion as he did more than just talk about it and has turned it into a successful business. That is easier said than done and it is of course much easier to criticize. I have criticized myself but only when I think protagonists from either side of the debate push the boundaries with regards to fact or truth. One thing that is beyond doubt is that Qwas dogs work and are extremely successful. Even the Germans are ripping them off. I am expecting the pictures in my inbox this afternoon.

 

[Alan m]

when you get pics will you post them.

as for steve. im sure he could see the opertunity in selling them to you . maybe a deal could be had. that way its a win win for both of you. whats the worst that can happen (there are no patent issues here) HE  TELLS YOU TO TAKE A LONG WALK OF A SHORT PIER.

 

[AlexThePalex]

I have seen that point put over on more than a few occasions and I think it is a little harsh.

The truth doesn't care about being nice or harsh.

I have read pretty much every thread going on this subject and I have absolutely no doubt that Steve with input from quite a few others initially brainstormed and implemented the idea. That is within the confines of users from a few forums.

That holds about zero credibility within the real wold where laws and evidence are more important than peer appreciation. Bench dogs existed long before anyone who ever got close to a computer or an internet forum was born. All that people who came later, like Qwas, did was adapt an existing idea that was already utilised by craftsmen in the middle ages. Even the original B&D workmate was introduced in 1973 and it came with lined up holes and bench dogs and Qwas wasn't anywhere near the bench dog business in those days, I presume.      

The Wright brothers are credited for inventing the aeroplane, but if you look closely, Boeing's current models look quite a bit different. Do we call Boeing the inventor of the aeroplane now? No, we don't.

If you want to credit a person for making a useful adaptation, fine. He can even get official legal recognition because certain adaptions are eligible for patenting. But a mere adaptation will never make you the inventor. Not even if you know and like the guy.

 

[andy5405]

Alex, you may or may not have a point and I must confess that I did until recently give the origin of this idea some considerable thought. However I am way past that stage now and I started this thread because I couldn't afford an MFT. I was going to build my own bench or actually try to convince a mate who is a very talented joiner to do it for me. That is still going to happen. What has changed is that I've gone back to my original idea of using the dog I designed to sit adjacent to the guide rail. It is in the picture above.

What I would really appreciate from the FOG members is whether or not they think my idea will work.

 

[Alan m]

i would look into putting extra holes for other angles. 22.5,30,60 etc

 

[andy5405]

As requested pictures of what must be called "Clone Dogs" as they are obviously a straight copy of Qwas Dogs. They don't look as nice to me as they haven't bothered to finish them as well as a Qwas Dog and they are more expensive. I certainly shan't be posting any details of where you can get them as I have always believed that the rail dog in particular is an inspired idea and belongs to Qwas.

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[andy5405]

I wasn't going to mention that but now someone has they are £95.00. Anyway I've had more thoughts about having an MFT top machined. It is a huge mistake in my opinion because I can have something far more useful made for exactly the same money. What I need is an MFT jig and then I can make as many tops as I like. I've thought big and the one I have in mind could produce a standard MFT top without having to move it and a Jumbo MFT (8x4 top) in only two moves. The hole size would be 30mm so a standard guide bush could be used without any chance of damage to the jig and two rows would have 20mm holes so Qwas Dogs could be used for alignment and repeatability. All on 96mm centres of course. It's a big beast at 1056mm x 1440mm but all the cost is in the setup and the extra holes and material hardly make any difference to the overall cost.

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[mhoy]

A CNC shop should be able to punch one out of aluminum fairly easily given the repetitive native of the holes/sizes. Wonder what the cost would be? Perhaps rent it out to defray the costs once you have one...

Mark

 

[Alan m]

i think the aluminium would be better for such an acuracy demanding jig. also the jig doesnt need to be that large. if it had one row or 2 rows of guide bush holes and a few reference holes for the 20mm (or whatever size dogs you end up using). just move the jig on a row and route again, its not as much of a neusence as you think as you will have to rearange yourself every row or 2 any way. doing this could reduce the jig cost by a 70-90 %

 

[andy5405]

i think the aluminium would be better for such an acuracy demanding jig. also the jig doesnt need to be that large. if it had one row or 2 rows of guide bush holes and a few reference holes for the 20mm (or whatever size dogs you end up using). just move the jig on a row and route again, its not as much of a neusence as you think as you will have to rearange yourself every row or 2 any way. doing this could reduce the jig cost by a 70-90 %

Alan, I think you are right with your approach. I have had a long discussion today with the guy who is going to make my jig. As it stands at the moment he is going to make the one in the picture above. The size at the moment doesn't really affect the cost as he is going to use 9mm MDF that he already has kicking around just to test the principle. It will however be too big for long term use. It's obviously too big to be made in aluminium as it would be expensive.

Once we have got the hole size right and confirmed that it will work with a variety of guide bushes I intend to try and market these jigs. The right material will then be of paramount importance for both cost and performance reasons. My next stage will probably be to produce about half a dozen to distribute to anyone who wants them for some form of testing. They will probaby be made of 9mm moisture resistant MDF. The size above will be too big for MR MDF as it will be awkward to store it in such a way that it stays flat. 

I need to give it some more thought as I only came up with the jig idea during the early hours of yesterday morning and here I am at my PC again in the early hours of Sunday morning (it's 4.29am right now) thinking about poxy jigs!! I'm going back to bed hoping that I end up dreaming about Kylie Minogue in her gold hot pants and not blo*dy Festool stuff.

 

[nickao]

I believe you are way over thinking this. All you need is to buy one Festool top and you can make anywhere from one large to ten small jigs from it.

Use the actual Festool top holes and a 1/4" to 1/2"(you can even push it to 3/4" bit if your router can handle it) bit with a bearing and it will cut perfect holes every time.

Or just get a piece of MDF . Drill or route two or three rows of perfect holes. You use the last two holes on the ends to use an index, place pegs through the jig into the existing holes to index for the next row and on and one. The first row is the only one that needs be carefully placed. Then use this jig with a smaller bit and a bearing. Once the initial jig is made PERFECT the rest is gravy.

I would gladly(once my shop is back up) drill the holes for a full top on my CNC for 20.00 - 25.00 (jig cheaper), you buy the material, wood, metal whatever. After shipping you will see that in the US you may as well get the tops from Festool(unless someone can drive to me). And again anyone can make a small jig in about an hour either from scratch or using one existing Festool top.

Good luck!

 

[Corwin]

I believe you are way over thinking this. All you need is to buy one Festool top ...

Exactly!  Making a template is not likely to be a marketable item as it is too easily done by the individual and with shipping, too expensive to offer any savings for the budget minded.  I think you are making way too much of this -- but, that's just the practical part of me saying...

 

[andy5405]

I believe you are way over thinking this. All you need is to buy one Festool top and you can make anywhere from one large to ten small jigs from it.

Use the actual Festool top holes and a 1/4" to 1/2"(you can even push it to 3/4" bit if your router can handle it) bit with a bearing and it will cut perfect holes every time.

Or just get a piece of MDF . Drill or route two or three rows of perfect holes. You use the last two holes on the ends to use an index, place pegs through the jig into the existing holes to index for the next row and on and one. The first row is the only one that needs be carefully placed. Then use this jig with a smaller bit and a bearing. Once the initial jig is made PERFECT the rest is gravy.

I would gladly(once my shop is back up) drill the holes for a full top on my CNC for 20.00 - 25.00 (jig cheaper), you buy the material, wood, metal whatever. After shipping you will see that in the US you may as well get the tops from Festool(unless someone can drive to me). And again anyone can make a small jig in about an hour either from scratch or using one existing Festool top.

Good luck!

I'm happy to get all advice as I'm acutely aware that I am in the company of woodworkers who are far more accomplished than I will ever be. Having said that I can't see why my proposed solution is overly complicated. The one piece of advice that I have seen repeated on here and other forums countless times is that it is a waste of time to try and duplicate the accuracy of the MFT in a standard workshop environment. I only have anecdotal evidence as I have never counted but I must have seen literally dozens of posts where people recommend a CNC produced top as the best method. The cumulative skill level of all those people is vast particularly if you consider the proposition that people that mess around with MFT's etc are likely to be above average woodworkers. If I were to guess that I have seen the CNC method proposed by at least 2 dozen guys with an average of 20 years experience, I'm taking that as 480 years of experience telling me that I'm on the right track.

All of those people would be aware that an MFT top could be used as a jig so I'm intrigued to find out why they haven't chosen that route. I have no doubt that it would work and your method is sound but there must be a reason why it doesn't appear to be popular. It has certainly been well documented. I'm also intending to aim at the vast untapped market of plunge saw owners who don't have and never will have a Festool MFT top.

Regarding the marketability of anything that I may come up with, I am prepared to take that chance. I think it's good to go. Time will tell if I am right. All I am proposing is that if anyone goes down the CNC route (and many have) it might be a better idea to have a jig made than a top. I can't see how that isn't simple. You're proposing copying a 20mm hole and I'm saying use a 30mm guide bush. Whichever way is better what people will definitely need is a 20mm dog. There is a bigger picture rattling around in my tiny little mind! I live on the coast and apparently it is very handy to have sprats if you want to catch mackerel.