I need expert advice for small a project.

[Davej]

Are you over thinking about it.,  do you need to just cut a small section out.  Can't you just cut the angle along the whole length of the piece you will be hanging on the cleat on the wall, that way you can use a wider piece of timber cut at 45º through the middle  and you get no waste, then just cut it to the lengths you need .
Dave

 

[bkharman]

Ok. I think this is what you are looking for. If so, I will follow up with what I would do.

 

[MichaelW2014]

Are you over thinking about it.,  do you need to just cut a small section out.  Can't you just cut the angle along the whole length of the piece you will be hanging on the cleat on the wall, that way you can use a wider piece of timber cut at 45º through the middle  and you get no waste, then just cut it to the lengths you need .
Dave

yeah, i could do that. but it would compromise the integrity of the frame i am making.  i am making painting panels like these: http://chaloria.com/panels.php

 

[MichaelW2014]

Ok. I think this is what you are looking for. If so, I will follow up with what I would do.

well, what i have in mind is close to this. but this is more of a socket, making it a far more difficult thing to make. the thing i am thinking is just a slice cut out it i think. this thing you have drawn is a hole socket, like a female socket. it's a bit different to what i have in mind. dang, this is so hard to figure out for some reason. some things have to be seen in person to be fully understood. even though i think what i am saying is feasible, i want to see it done.

 

[bkharman]

OK, so here is some more on the above pic.  The top portion is not a socket, it is the other 45 deg cut to accept the mating cleat.  you just can't see it from the PDF.  I also didn't know what side you were mounting which part, so i took a stab.  If you want a "hidden" cleat, I agree with the other poster that this is overly complicated.  I would have a full cleat across the back.

If you are indeed forced to use the small blocks you mentioned, you can do the top portion of the cleat very easily.  You would dado or route out the middle section and install (via 4 screws in my pic) a mini-cleat wherever you wish.  It is a bit more work, but far easier then trying to notch out a 45 deg. groove in one part of the cleat.

Can we ask what this will be holding?  Why the hidden portion?  EDIT: just saw your other reply... I would simply do 2 cleats.  skipping the middle support bar.

Cheers

Bryan

 

[sawdustshop]

Instead of a jig for a router ,attach a beveled face to the miter gauge at whatever angle. I assume a 45. Then just use a dado stack in a table saw. If you make it zero clearance you can change the size and location whenever you want.

 

[ART at WORK]

Am i right in understanding you want to hang paintings on the wall. The surface to carry the paint is a solid wood sheet with a solid wood frame?
Are you making these yourself?

What size and weight are we talking about?

My suggestion would be to cut small hardwood blocks at 45 degrees on your miter saw and then glue them to the picture frame.
The wall fixing is a length of wood same thickness as the hardwood block cut at 45 on a table saw. (Local wood shop could do this for you) then cut to lengths to fit in the spaces in the back frame.

Pip

 

[MichaelW2014]

OK, so here is some more on the above pic.  The top portion is not a socket, it is the other 45 deg cut to accept the mating cleat.  you just can't see it from the PDF.  I also didn't know what side you were mounting which part, so i took a stab.  If you want a "hidden" cleat, I agree with the other poster that this is overly complicated.  I would have a full cleat across the back.

If you are indeed forced to use the small blocks you mentioned, you can do the top portion of the cleat very easily.  You would dado or route out the middle section and install (via 4 screws in my pic) a mini-cleat wherever you wish.  It is a bit more work, but far easier then trying to notch out a 45 deg. groove in one part of the cleat.

Can we ask what this will be holding?  Why the hidden portion?  EDIT: just saw your other reply... I would simply do 2 cleats.  skipping the middle support bar.

Cheers

Bryan

hmm, yes, good idea. but sometimes there are multiple crossbars, so you wouldn't just be skipping the middle crossbar, you would be looking to skip two crossbars. but, i suppose the same approach applies: you just make the cleat cuts from either end of the bar, leaving a large area "uncleated" where the two crossbars meet the top bar. but now, the only thing that concerns me with this method are the corners where the top bar meets the side bars. that appears strange in my mind. i guess i could make the top bar bigger than the side bars of the frame so that after the areas of the top bar are are cut off for the cleat, the bar that remains is still the same size as the other bars in the frame.

what do you think is the best tool to use for this, after a table saw (can't afford nor fit one in my shop). Would I be better off with a carvex or a tracksaw? i haven't looked into the dust collection for the track saw, I read that the carvex dust collection is pretty good, but not perfect. dust collection is a high priority to me.

 

[MichaelW2014]

Instead of a jig for a router ,attach a beveled face to the miter gauge at whatever angle. I assume a 45. Then just use a dado stack in a table saw. If you make it zero clearance you can change the size and location whenever you want.

yes, i have this 45 degree slot on my miter saw. my miter saw is an old fashion hand saw by nobex. i don't have a table saw.

 

[MichaelW2014]

Am i right in understanding you want to hang paintings on the wall. The surface to carry the paint is a solid wood sheet with a solid wood frame?
Are you making these yourself?

What size and weight are we talking about?

My suggestion would be to cut small hardwood blocks at 45 degrees on your miter saw and then glue them to the picture frame.
The wall fixing is a length of wood same thickness as the hardwood block cut at 45 on a table saw. (Local wood shop could do this for you) then cut to lengths to fit in the spaces in the back frame.

Pip

some of my paintings are under 2' (50cm). some are 11' (300cm). sorry, i'm not very good at metric conversions yet. the weight varies, from a few pounds (1-2kilos) up to 30 or 40 pounds (20kilo).

yes, i could just attach cleat blocks, but that is not as elegant and probably not as sturdy as cleats that are integrated into the panel frame itself. elegance is a high priority too. the backs of my paintings matter to me. ideally, i would join all the corners with dovetails or some sort of fancy japanese joinery. i just haven't gotten to this level of ability yet and i don't want to spend an incredibly amount of time on the frame.

 

[JeromeM]

~
In a french cleat system there are two parts. one that is point down and the second that is point up.
The one that is point up is screwed into the wall. let's say this is 4" long made out of a bar that was originally 4"x1"x1.25". this one is easily made on a table saw.
The second half of this french cleat I want to make is a groove cut out of the middle of a bar that is 30"x1"x1.25". So 5" of the middle of this bar will have a 45 degree groove cut out of it to engage with the 4" cleat that is on the wall. Making this part of the cleat system is difficult because the groove is in the middle of the bar, not along the entire bar and it is not starting at either end of the bar.

I think that you are trying to overthink this.
1. your wall cleat is shorter than the cleat in the hanging item by about an inch.
2. The 45 degree groove cut out of the hanging item bar will be hidden.
3. There is no significant benefit to having square ends on the hanging item cleat.

Thus using a router table with a 45degree chamfering bit that will leave a rounded end (unless you clean it up for which there is no need) will be the neatest and fastest and has a professional look to it IMHO. You would of course start and stop the cuts in the centre of the bar.

 

[MichaelW2014]

~
In a french cleat system there are two parts. one that is point down and the second that is point up.
The one that is point up is screwed into the wall. let's say this is 4" long made out of a bar that was originally 4"x1"x1.25". this one is easily made on a table saw.
The second half of this french cleat I want to make is a groove cut out of the middle of a bar that is 30"x1"x1.25". So 5" of the middle of this bar will have a 45 degree groove cut out of it to engage with the 4" cleat that is on the wall. Making this part of the cleat system is difficult because the groove is in the middle of the bar, not along the entire bar and it is not starting at either end of the bar.

I think that you are trying to overthink this.
1. your wall cleat is shorter than the cleat in the hanging item by about an inch.
2. The 45 degree groove cut out of the hanging item bar will be hidden.
3. There is no significant benefit to having square ends on the hanging item cleat.

Thus using a router table with a 45degree chamfering bit that will leave a rounded end (unless you clean it up for which there is no need) will be the neatest and fastest and has a professional look to it IMHO. You would of course start and stop the cuts in the centre of the bar.

yeah, that would be ideal, but i don't have a routing table. the festool router table looks awesome, but i can't afford it. so i think i am going to do this with hand tools. a nobex manual miter saw and auriou rasps to make the area flat. probably, this will not result in as good of a notch as i would get with a router table, but it should suffice.

i would get a router table by another company if i knew i was buying something that was built to perfection. i don't like buying, nor using, nor knowing i own, poorly made things; it bothers me.

 

[bkharman]

If you want to "dress up" the wall cleat side, you could add a decretive edge on it with a router.  You can just route that edge and be happy.  I don't know that I would try and make the cleats with hand tools.  If you don't have a nice smooth surface area, you are going to not have a level hang when you are done.  You don't need much and if you don't have any access to even a track saw, I would head to a lumber yard or find a friend (or FOG member) close by that would let you use a track saw to rip a board with a 45 in the middle for the cleat.  Literally would take less than a minute.

Google french cleat if you haven't already and look for examples that you like and post them up here, there is alway more than one way to get this stuff done.

Good luck!

 

[ART at WORK]

I would go with JMB's suggestion as well.
A 45 degree router head is not expensive and standard in most box sets.
The domino is a great joiner for frames. Though a little preicy with the domino box. A great tool to work with.
You would have a hidden cleat on the frame and strong overlaping joints at the corners and in the middle.
Try one and let us know how it turns out.

Ü

 

[JeromeM]

~
In a french cleat system there are two parts. one that is point down and the second that is point up.
The one that is point up is screwed into the wall. let's say this is 4" long made out of a bar that was originally 4"x1"x1.25". this one is easily made on a table saw.
The second half of this french cleat I want to make is a groove cut out of the middle of a bar that is 30"x1"x1.25". So 5" of the middle of this bar will have a 45 degree groove cut out of it to engage with the 4" cleat that is on the wall. Making this part of the cleat system is difficult because the groove is in the middle of the bar, not along the entire bar and it is not starting at either end of the bar.

I think that you are trying to overthink this.
1. your wall cleat is shorter than the cleat in the hanging item by about an inch.
2. The 45 degree groove cut out of the hanging item bar will be hidden.
3. There is no significant benefit to having square ends on the hanging item cleat.

Thus using a router table with a 45degree chamfering bit that will leave a rounded end (unless you clean it up for which there is no need) will be the neatest and fastest and has a professional look to it IMHO. You would of course start and stop the cuts in the centre of the bar.

yeah, that would be ideal, but i don't have a routing table. the festool router table looks awesome, but i can't afford it. so i think i am going to do this with hand tools. a nobex manual miter saw and auriou rasps to make the area flat. probably, this will not result in as good of a notch as i would get with a router table, but it should suffice.

i would get a router table by another company if i knew i was buying something that was built to perfection. i don't like buying, nor using, nor knowing i own, poorly made things; it bothers me.

There is no need to buy a router table for this use. It is a simple task to mount a router on a piece of plywood and make a fence.

The simple table will be much more restricted in its usage capabilities than a more complex one, but then your need is simple.

Makers of router tables would have you believe that you need their product, but in many cases you don't. If you frequent any of the router forums you will find that the most frequent advice given is to make your own table. My first one is here http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/sets/72157624105291152/

I am not saying that the router table you buy don't have a place nor am I saying that they aren't useful however for many uses they are over engendered.

For me I have to be more careful with money than time  so I can take the time to make something for less than a 10% of the cost that does 90% of the jobs the good table will do and is much better than a cheap table.

 

[MichaelW2014]

If you want to "dress up" the wall cleat side, you could add a decretive edge on it with a router.  You can just route that edge and be happy.  I don't know that I would try and make the cleats with hand tools.  If you don't have a nice smooth surface area, you are going to not have a level hang when you are done.  You don't need much and if you don't have any access to even a track saw, I would head to a lumber yard or find a friend (or FOG member) close by that would let you use a track saw to rip a board with a 45 in the middle for the cleat.  Literally would take less than a minute.

Google french cleat if you haven't already and look for examples that you like and post them up here, there is alway more than one way to get this stuff done.

Good luck!

good job, you just planted a big old seed of doubt in my happy conclusion to make the cleats with hand tools. your point is good. french cleats are something that probably should be done with a machine or jig of some sort. dang. i'm not sure what to do. i would go the router table route but i don't know what's good, as far as precision, integration with my festool router, and it must also have excellent dust collection. plus i live in athens greece, so, it's not i can just order something from amazon. i have to order stuff from amazon greece. and the price i pay for festool tools is about 50% more or twice what you guys pay. so it is funny to me when people talk about festool tools being expensive...yes, they really are.

thanks for the advice

 

[MichaelW2014]

Now I know what the job is I would recommend doing......!

Using a router with a 45degree cutter is the best way to go. You don't need a router table just a router which you said you have festool 1010.  

I would production run a few lengths.  I would run the cutter right through I wouldn't bother doing how you wanted to do them having them set in.

Then to make up the frames you can simply cut mitres and then go buy a domino for the joints.

For your cross members you can just stick a 45dregee angle on them then use domino or screws to fix them to the pre routered bevel.

Doing it this way you can set your router up just run as many lengths of timber you think you need with a 45 angle on and then as and when needed just chop saw them to length for your variable size picture frames.

sounds good. but i don't understand how to use the router without a track or a table. are you saying i just need a router track to do the 45degree angle cut?

the domino would probably be great for the mitered corners. when i screw them together the screws make the wood shift. this is a considerable problem that keeps me from achieving perfection. in pro frame shops they have big old machines just for this process of connecting the corners. check this thing out--i want one!
http://www.lionpic.co.uk/product/Hoffmann-MU-2P-Semi-Auto-Corner-Routing---Joining-System,35333,0.aspx

the domino things are kind of big though. i wonder if they would be too big for the small piece of wood i am connecting. remember the thickness of the wood bars is only 1"x1.25". Do you still recommend the domino given this situation? I have bessey corner clamps for putting together the bars. would i be able to use the domino while the bars are set in the clamps?
These ones:


I do have a local wood supplier who has a table saw. I could ask him to cut the notches for me. But that would be bit of a hassle, especially on the larger beams I will be using for larger, paintings, all the way up to 11feet.

thanks for taking the time!

 

[MichaelW2014]

~
In a french cleat system there are two parts. one that is point down and the second that is point up.
The one that is point up is screwed into the wall. let's say this is 4" long made out of a bar that was originally 4"x1"x1.25". this one is easily made on a table saw.
The second half of this french cleat I want to make is a groove cut out of the middle of a bar that is 30"x1"x1.25". So 5" of the middle of this bar will have a 45 degree groove cut out of it to engage with the 4" cleat that is on the wall. Making this part of the cleat system is difficult because the groove is in the middle of the bar, not along the entire bar and it is not starting at either end of the bar.

I think that you are trying to overthink this.
1. your wall cleat is shorter than the cleat in the hanging item by about an inch.
2. The 45 degree groove cut out of the hanging item bar will be hidden.
3. There is no significant benefit to having square ends on the hanging item cleat.

Thus using a router table with a 45degree chamfering bit that will leave a rounded end (unless you clean it up for which there is no need) will be the neatest and fastest and has a professional look to it IMHO. You would of course start and stop the cuts in the centre of the bar.

yeah, that would be ideal, but i don't have a routing table. the festool router table looks awesome, but i can't afford it. so i think i am going to do this with hand tools. a nobex manual miter saw and auriou rasps to make the area flat. probably, this will not result in as good of a notch as i would get with a router table, but it should suffice.

i would get a router table by another company if i knew i was buying something that was built to perfection. i don't like buying, nor using, nor knowing i own, poorly made things; it bothers me.

There is no need to buy a router table for this use. It is a simple task to mount a router on a piece of plywood and make a fence.

The simple table will be much more restricted in its usage capabilities than a more complex one, but then your need is simple.

Makers of router tables would have you believe that you need their product, but in many cases you don't. If you frequent any of the router forums you will find that the most frequent advice given is to make your own table. My first one is here http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/sets/72157624105291152/

I am not saying that the router table you buy don't have a place nor am I saying that they aren't useful however for many uses they are over engendered.

For me I have to be more careful with money than time  so I can take the time to make something for less than a 10% of the cost that does 90% of the jobs the good table will do and is much better than a cheap table.

hmm, i can't really imagine how I would attach the router to a piece of plywood and make a fence. please do explain this. I am eager to figure this out! thanks

 

[nclemmons]

Have you considered just using dominoes instead of the French cleat?  Make your horizontal bar with a couple of oversized domino mortises.  Use two smaller dominoes in the wall attacked piece to make it easy to attach and remove the painting.

All right angles with no need for the routed angles, and the Domino can be used for frame assembly as well.

Neil

 

[MichaelW2014]

Have you considered just using dominoes instead of the French cleat?  Make your horizontal bar with a couple of oversized domino mortises.  Use two smaller dominoes in the wall attacked piece to make it easy to attach and remove the painting.

All right angles with no need for the routed angles, and the Domino can be used for frame assembly as well.

Neil

i like the idea, but it is problematic. the dominos in the wall would have to perfectly lined up, which is not easy to do. plus they would leave huge holes in the wall. often my paintings are in exhibitions that last one month. so there would be more repair work after each show. also, sometimes even the best installer hangs a painting crooked, this would add to the time it takes to install again. also, many walls are made using sheetrock, which would not support the domino.