If you could only have 1, Lamello Zeta P2 or Domino 500?

[Fourmi]

I have the Zeta P2, Domino 500 and Mafell DDF40 - if had to get rid of one, it would be the Domino 500.

The Lamello and Mafell are better engineered tools, but this is a moot point as the Festool is a high quality tool. The accuracy of the Mafell surpasses the Domino.

I often use dowels for alignment and Tenso for pulling the joint together, very fast and accurate joining. The Zeta and DDF40 also work perfectly together for Divario invisible shelf fittings.

If I could only have one, I'd pick the DDF40.

 

[ChuckM]

Fixed for you  [tongue]

[attachimg=1]

 

[derekcohen]

I have a DF500, which I purchased about 5 years ago when re-building a kitchen full of frame-and-panel frames. It received little use after this as I am a traditionalist at heart, and prefer "proper" M&T joinery. Then I needed to build a pair of beds, and it dawned on me that my mindset on the Domino needed to shift away from viewing it as a fixed set of sizes machine for loose tenon joinery. Not only can it make any size of loose tenon joinery, it acts as a movable morticing machine.

Prior to the Domino, my main method of making mortices was a morticing chisel or a router. The DF500 is nearly perfect in sizing for furniture, with 6mm, 8mm and 10mm wide bits. This covers all one needs. The perceived limitation had been the width of the fixed mortices covered on the machine. But there is a simple way around this.

For the beds I made a 10mm template to position the start and end points of a wide mortice ...

Then it is easy to make ..

Make your own loose tenons ...

I did the same for a bedhead with a multitude of 8mm thick slats slats ...

Use a hollow mortice chisel to square the ends ...

Last comment is to view the Domino and Biscuit machines serving different purposes and not used interchangeably. The Domino is, as shown, a morticer. The Biscuit cutter makes splines. Use biscuits to align boards for panels and mitres.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.. The perceived limitation had been the width of the fixed mortices covered on the machine. Snip.
Regards from Perth

Derek

The limitation of the DF500 for many is its cutting depth. That's where the DF700 comes into the picture.

 

[derekcohen]

Snip.. The perceived limitation had been the width of the fixed mortices covered on the machine. Snip.
Regards from Perth

Derek

The limitation of the DF500 for many is its cutting depth. That's where the DF700 comes into the picture.

I should have qualified this for medium-sized furniture joinery. Absolutely, a door will need a deeper mortice, but the chairs I am building will be fine with a 28mm depth. The bed, above and below, also manages very well with 28mm deep mortices.



Where do you see the limitation?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[mino]

Limitation .. valid point .. no way to make furniture for Guliver's friends indeed.

Though not much of a topic when discussed in the Zeta P2 or the DDF 40 context ...
---

Will just add on my concise point - the DOMINO is a universal joinery tool in my view. No, not in what it does - it does just one thing - but in that -that-one-thing- is a mortise.

And a mortise made fast and with the precision allows "that one trick pony" can be used for joints and in ways that go way beyond "traditional" application of the mortise-tenon joinery, outside artisans manual work. It is like the tracksaw in the board cutting world. It does just one thing, but the combination of it being portable and precise opens a LOT of possibilities otherwise not available to the table saw, the cicular saw, etc.

..
I actually like the comment about a Zeta P2 plus a DDF 40 being a good combination which would take care of most of the jobs the 500 could be used for in basic cabinetry. No doubt that is true for many people.

But. The key word there is "most" and "for who". It still cannot replace the thin/subtle item joining tasks where one would use just one centrally-placed tenon. Also, I just do not see the DDF 40, however great it is, replacing the 4 mm dominoes in 3/8" stock for fine items. Sure, there are even 3mm dowels ... but at that width they have a bit of a strength "issue", to put it lightly.

So, I stick to my point - of the original comment: If in doubt, get the DOMINO first. When something more efficient is needed for (mass) cabinetry - a doweling machine may be on the horizon, or the DDF 40 as the middle ground. But at that point one will know the need precisely and not need to ask for advice.

If someone needs to ask, that indicates to me the needs are sufficiently versatile for the 500 to be the right first-to-buy tool choice.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.

Where do you see the limitation?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Every tool, regardless of its versatility, has its share of limitations. It's not clear from the photos you share in your posts, but I assume apart from the tenons, you also use some kind of bolts and nuts to pull the frame together, as is the common case for most frame beds.

The DF500 uses 10x50 tenons for the largest builds. I'm not concerned about widths or thicknesses as I can resort to the use of twin or double tenons where applicable. The depth is its Achilles' heel, if I may, but a heel that can be remedied by means other than the DF700. For example, the mortises can be made deeper by hand with a mortising chisel or by drilling as seen below:

[attachimg=1]

I'm not getting the DF700 because the DF500 can take care of 99% of my mortise & tenon joinery needs. The DF500 is a lot lighter to use and control for precision cuts, and its ergonomics, unlike the DF700's (which some users like), works great for me.

The critical thing to benefit from the full potentials of a machine is to master it through (lots of) uses and through using it in different applications (I even used the DF500 to make louver screens). As I said, having "mastered" the Domino Joiner. I got rid of all other joinery or joinery-related machines (pocket screws (rarely used anyway), benchtop mortiser, and biscuit joiner -- I still keep the self-centering dowel jig for other applications). In some other forums, some people are offering all of kinds of "alternatives" based on price to the DF. Oh well, they don't know what they don't know.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Just before Xmas I bought a bunch of rough sawn white oak, and I got the chance to use the Zeta over the holidays for a large mantel I'm making out of them, and I have to say it is an absolutely brilliant bit of kit!

For anyone sitting on the fence about getting one, I can tell you that you'll find uses you would never have thought of, I'm absolutely over the moon with how much it has added to my capabilities and work flow!

I faced a number of extremely fiddly assembling, one example being the mitred mouldings I machined for the plinths, but then the added complication is that the carved block needs to be connected and glued up at the same time. Doing this with the Domino would have been a nightmare to get 100% bang on without lots of mucking around and a multitude of clamps keeping everything aligned.

For this I simply slotted the carved block and the inside of the mouldings for the 15mm Clamex hex key style connectors, and used the 10mm Tenso style clips on the actual mitres. Because they all allow some movement up/down and sideways, it made gluing the assembly, and then adjusting slightly where it needed, a trivial and quick exercise with excellent results! And as can be seen in the last pic, the edge of the 10mm Tenso slot is less than 2mm from breaking through the front edge and there's a 1.5mm lip I had to pack up to get level, but aligning and cutting the slots was really surprisingly easy despite all that!

I extensively used Clamex hex key style connectors from ebay to assemble the whole thing, with a Domino tenon in the centre of the plinth-panel-plinth just for extra strength. The rail and stile panels I made using the Domino's as they are perfect for that. The long middle panel has 2 Clamex's at each end holding it to the side assemblies.

The other beauty of the connectors, the Clamex in particular, is the amazingly high pulling and holding power. It pulled all the joints super tight, and I barely had to use any clamps, going straight to applying the finish immediately after assembling!

In the second last pic I needed to add a narrow strip to cover the slot I machined in the plinth as I changed my mind on the design partway through, so I just machined up the strip, cut 2 x 10mm Tenso slots, applied the glue and click click, all done! Straight onto the finish!

The time and effort the Zeta saves is just amazing. And as I bought the connectors off a local guy on ebay, I think the outlay was maybe $20 all up! Sensational machine.

One last thing I will add, when using the Domino in free space, not held tight against a face and edge, the Domino tends to move slightly no matter how tight you hold it as the cutter wants to "pull" the machine a bit as it plunges. The Zeta because it's a spinning blade, doesn't have this effect so long as you don't rush the plunge, so it's incredibly easy to cut the slot exactly where you want it. Even cutting the 10mm Tenso slots on the inside of the mitres of the mouldings was amazingly simple and straight forward!

And before anyone picks up on it, the timber on top was just to simulate the top for the pics, I still have to machine up a slab of white oak for the top!

[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3][attachimg=4]

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=75933]luvmytoolz[/member] that's a good looking mantle, can't wait to see it finished. I especially like the little cove cut on the inside corners of the vertical members.

 

[luvmytoolz]

[member=75933]luvmytoolz[/member] that's a good looking mantle, can't wait to see it finished. I especially like the little cove cut on the inside corners of the vertical members.

Thanks, it just breaks up the edge a bit!

 

[DynaGlide]

Do you guys with both setups use the Zeta for carcass construction or stick to the Domino?

Going to be making some base cabinets soon and was toying with using tenso and screws.

 

[squall_line]

Do you guys with both setups use the Zeta for carcass construction or stick to the Domino?

Going to be making some base cabinets soon and was toying with using tenso and screws.

When I built my Sys-AZ cabinets, I did them three ways:

DF500 connectors - three bay
DF500 dominoes and glue - two bay
Zeta P2 Clamex - two bay

To my recollection, I did them in that order, too.

The most expensive from a Bill of Materials perspective was the Clamex version.  It was also the quickest and easiest to mortise and to assemble.  Dominoes and glue was the most annoying, mostly because of the clamping.

I used some tensos for a quick little cabinet box for my network equipment, and snapping the pieces together was quick and satisfying.  I stapled 1/4" hard board to the back to stabilize it against racking.

 

[tiralie]

Do you guys with both setups use the Zeta for carcass construction or stick to the Domino?

Going to be making some base cabinets soon and was toying with using tenso and screws.

I have both, but use my Lamello biscuit joiner with screws for carcasses. If the screws need to hidden I will use tenso’s. For face frames, always tenso’s with a pre load and glue. For flat pack (melamine construction) installation clamex.

 

[tiralie]

I do furniture pieces mostly, and cabinets often. I don’t expect a completely neutral crowd here, but do respect the knowledge regularly displayed. I am quite interested in the connector possibilities of both, and am leaning domino, just looking for issues I may not have considered.

Domino. For furniture the domino is brilliant, unless you have a mortise and tenoning setup (multi router, panarouter, shaper etc.) The domino is nice for cabinets, but a good biscuit joiner and screws are just as good and faster.

 

[Boski]

The Lamello is an absolute dream to use. I mainly use MDF and its far superior to the Df500.

I am considering selling mine.

 

[luvmytoolz]

I love my Domino's and would never sell them, but I'm rapidly finding out the speed and convenience factor for the applicable use cases using the Zeta is far superior. As I did for the mantel I built in the last pic you can see the layout I used with Tenso's and Clamex's, it couldn't have been any easier or quicker, and vastly less fiddly and awkward than if I had used Domino's instead.

For panels, doors, large slab glue ups, etc, Domino rules, for attaching archs to door jambs, joining assemblies, fiddly stuff, mouldings, etc the Zeta rules.

I couldn't emphasise enough the benefit of not having to clamp stuff assembled with the Zeta. And the connectors can be bought insanely cheap. A cabinet maker friend just got a bag of 500 pairs of P10 Clamex's in for me, total cost, $100AUD inc shipping. Likewise there's a local ebay seller selling the P14 Tenso's at 600 pairs for $225AUD. So you can go nuts with them and it's cheap as chips.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Do you guys with both setups use the Zeta for carcass construction or stick to the Domino?

Going to be making some base cabinets soon and was toying with using tenso and screws.

For me, it depends on the application. For frameless, I generally use Dominos. For face frame, again it depends. Sometimes, I make the face frame attach with Tenso.
I am far more likely to use either of the Lamellos for things other than simple cabinet construction. They are great for assemblies like mantles and such.

As I see it, Dominos are essentially an alignment device that require glue (or some other alternative) to hold things together.
Lamellos are an attachment device by themselves, but the alignment factor is not nearly as robust. That's why I use both. Well, that and the fact that the Lamellos are way too wide for building face frames. They are great for holding them on though.

 

[Michael Kellough]

I love my Domino's and would never sell them, but I'm rapidly finding out the speed and convenience factor for the applicable use cases using the Zeta is far superior. As I did for the mantel I built in the last pic you can see the layout I used with Tenso's and Clamex's, it couldn't have been any easier or quicker, and vastly less fiddly and awkward than if I had used Domino's instead.

For panels, doors, large slab glue ups, etc, Domino rules, for attaching archs to door jambs, joining assemblies, fiddly stuff, mouldings, etc the Zeta rules.

I couldn't emphasise enough the benefit of not having to clamp stuff assembled with the Zeta. And the connectors can be bought insanely cheap. A cabinet maker friend just got a bag of 500 pairs of P10 Clamex's in for me, total cost, $100AUD inc shipping. Likewise there's a local ebay seller selling the P14 Tenso's at 600 pairs for $225AUD. So you can go nuts with them and it's cheap as chips.

Are they genuine? Over here a bag of 300 pair cost $475 US.

 

[luvmytoolz]

I love my Domino's and would never sell them, but I'm rapidly finding out the speed and convenience factor for the applicable use cases using the Zeta is far superior. As I did for the mantel I built in the last pic you can see the layout I used with Tenso's and Clamex's, it couldn't have been any easier or quicker, and vastly less fiddly and awkward than if I had used Domino's instead.

For panels, doors, large slab glue ups, etc, Domino rules, for attaching archs to door jambs, joining assemblies, fiddly stuff, mouldings, etc the Zeta rules.

I couldn't emphasise enough the benefit of not having to clamp stuff assembled with the Zeta. And the connectors can be bought insanely cheap. A cabinet maker friend just got a bag of 500 pairs of P10 Clamex's in for me, total cost, $100AUD inc shipping. Likewise there's a local ebay seller selling the P14 Tenso's at 600 pairs for $225AUD. So you can go nuts with them and it's cheap as chips.

Are they genuine? Over here a bag of 300 pair cost $475 US.

For us in OZ the same 300 pack is $1325!

They'd be cheap knock-offs, but they're identical in look and function for between 1/10th to 1/20th the cost. I did also buy Divario style connectors from AliExpress as well for roughly $60AUD total per 100. In OZ here we get absolutely reamed on the parts cost, even the warranty length for the Zeta we get screwed on and I couldn't even register it on the global US site, only option was to do it on the UK site, and they nicely emailed to say as I'm not in the US or EU we don't get the automatic extended warranty! Lamello registration is certainly nowhere near as good as Festools.

The cheapo Clamex ones I used for the mantel I'm building I must have tightened/loosened 20 times at least without any noticeable slop developing and the holding power is sensational, so they're good!

 

[online421]

I have both 700 and Zeta P2
Zeta P2 for sheet goods
700 connector for solid timber.