If you could only have 1, Lamello Zeta P2 or Domino 500?

[DynaGlide]

Do you guys with both setups use the Zeta for carcass construction or stick to the Domino?

Going to be making some base cabinets soon and was toying with using tenso and screws.

For me, it depends on the application. For frameless, I generally use Dominos. For face frame, again it depends. Sometimes, I make the face frame attach with Tenso.
I am far more likely to use either of the Lamellos for things other than simple cabinet construction. They are great for assemblies like mantles and such.

As I see it, Dominos are essentially an alignment device that require glue (or some other alternative) to hold things together.
Lamellos are an attachment device by themselves, but the alignment factor is not nearly as robust. That's why I use both. Well, that and the fact that the Lamellos are way too wide for building face frames. They are great for holding them on though.

[member=58857]Crazyraceguy[/member]

Since you're one of the guys who worked production/cabinet shop I'd like your opinion. I'm starting on 5 base cabinets and 2 tall uppers (sitting on counter top, secured to wall). Frameless construction.

The last time I built cabinets was for my office ~3-4 years ago. Frameless and I used domino and screws. I didn't own the Zeta. Now I own the Zeta and the Domino.

All of the base cabinets are pre finished maple and only require edge banding. The uppers are Combi-core and will be sprayed.

So what'd be your economical/practical approach? Tenso doesn't work until final assembly and even then I'd likely use screws in addition to them. I could do Bisco's for mockup and measurements for doors/drawers. Clamex would be pretty expensive just for a dry fit when they're ultimately going to get screwed together.

This is all being built in my garage and moved inside the house for install. No transportation issues or issues getting fully assembled boxes to their installation space. I could see committing to the Zeta fasteners for the uppers which get sprayed to help things along.

To me the Zeta makes the most sense for attaching a face frame to frameless. I'm wanting to find a reason to use it for this project but keep going back to I should just use domino's and screws to dry fit and assemble the boxes.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=65062]DynaGlide[/member] I would definitely go with the Tenso for attaching the faceframe. It's a well-suited clampless operation, though I might throw in a Domino or two in there with them.
In the places where you are going to use Dominos and screws....that's plenty.
Since you already have both machines, use them for their strengths. The Dominos are better for alignment, but they have no attachment/clamping ability. Neither of the Zeta fasteners is all that for alignment, but they both have clamping power.
I have quite a few bookcases out in the field that have faceframes attached by Tensos alone, they are plenty strong enough, as nothing is really trying to dislodge them. I wouldn't do that where there are doors involved though. Glue is enough to overcome that though.

 

[Muttley000]

Just to close the loop on an old thread: given my current work flows, expected future work, and the realities financially, I have decided to go with a 700 and add the Seneca adapter and domishim.  When the right work is coming I can’t wait to get my hands on the lamello, and if it ever makes sense the 500 could come later too.

 

[luvmytoolz]

[member=76927]Muttley000[/member] One things to keep in the back of your mind with the Lamello, is that you can buy the Tenso/Clamex clone connectors for a fraction of what the genuine ones cost, so the biggest outlay is the initial tool cost. I buy the Clamex's in bulk for around $0.40AUD each, and the quality is no different to my eyes.

 

[DynaGlide]

[member=76927]Muttley000[/member] One things to keep in the back of your mind with the Lamello, is that you can buy the Tenso/Clamex clone connectors for a fraction of what the genuine ones cost, so the biggest outlay is the initial tool cost. I buy the Clamex's in bulk for around $0.40AUD each, and the quality is no different to my eyes.

Can I get them in the states?

 

[luvmytoolz]

[member=76927]Muttley000[/member] One things to keep in the back of your mind with the Lamello, is that you can buy the Tenso/Clamex clone connectors for a fraction of what the genuine ones cost, so the biggest outlay is the initial tool cost. I buy the Clamex's in bulk for around $0.40AUD each, and the quality is no different to my eyes.

Can I get them in the states?

I've bought stacks off different sellers on Aliexpress, in P18 Divario/P14 Tenso and P15 Clamex really cheap and great quality. A local supplier I've also bought from several times, but he's just buying them from China anyway.

One of the guys in the States did buy some Tenso's cheap, but they were physically slightly different to all of mine with not as good a fit, so there are some lesser quality ones around, this thread might be of use as it covers it all:
https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/other-tools-accessories/lamello-zeta-project/

The threads also good for showing the kind of really tricky joinery the Zeta can handle that the Domino's wouldn't be capable of, or be of use to.

 

[Oilers]

If you're choosing the Domino I'd highly recommend the DF700 over the DF500. It's heavier but is much more natural and ergonomic to use, and easier to manhandle compared to the DF500. If you really want the use of the smaller Dominos the DF500 supports, you can buy the Seneca adaptor.

I love both Domino's but for most tasks the 700 is better in every way I reckon.

I +1 this. 

The 500 is good.

I love using the 700.  I’ll find a way to design for the 700 if the project/wood allows it.  I find myself less likely to ‘user error’ with the 700 due to its ergonomics. 

But, if you ALWAYS use thin stock, the 500 is the right call as it is designed for thinner material.  Its motor spins faster, the 700 slower.  That, to my understanding, is why the Seneca conversion kits for the 700 aren’t recommended and can be hard on the 700.  (I may be corrected.)

Which is all to say, I own both and will reach for the 700 whenever I can.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Can I get them in the states?

I've been chatting with Andreas who is the local Ebay seller I've bought hundreds of P14 Tenso clones off, and which are absolutely identical in form and function to the Lamello branded ones but at a fraction of the price, and he said he can drop ship them to the States directly from his supplier if anyone's interested, this is his ebay shop:https://www.ebay.com.au/usr/woodgo.

The $ conversion rate makes these especially cheap for you guys in the States!

 

[SoonerFan]

I have had a DF500 for more than a decade. I have had the DF700 for about five years. I use the DF500 more because I build lots of cabinets and face frames. However, there is no substitute for the DF700 when larger tenons are needed.

I do not have but am seriously considering a Zeta P2. I see Zeta P2 advantages for installing face frames, filler strips, eliminating the need for clamps, etc. I also see some advantages of the Clamex connectors over the Domino connectors. For those of you that have a Domino and a Zeta P2:

1. Did you find new uses for the Zeta over time like many of us have for the Domino?

2. I can see myself using Dominos for alignment and building face frames and then install the face frames with Tenso connectors.  Would be great to spray the face frames and then install without visible fasteners. Do you do this?

3. I a leaning toward a corded Zeta with the diamond cutter? Any reason to go cordless I might not be thinking of? Is the diamond cutter worth the extra $100 over the carbide cutter?

4. Any suggestions on U.S. dealers to purchase from?

Since retiring I doing a lot more woodworking. I think if I had a Zeta P2 I would use it a great deal. I know I would use one if I had it to install the face frame and filler strips needed for my current project. Would make install at the clients easier. 

Thanks in advance for any input.

 

[squall_line]

I have all three (500, 700, P2).

1. I used clamex connectors to reinstall a piece of face trim / filler strip in my kitchen that needs to be removed if you want to get the dishwasher out for service.  This has come in handy more than once since I first found every last screw and nail that originally held that piece in place.

2. I can't speak to this personally.

3. The diamond cutter is intended to be used on abrasive materials like laminate/chip board, which tends to have glues and other additives that will dull the standard cutter more quickly.  The standard cutter is intended for hardwoods, and should provide cleaner cuts than the diamond cutter if hardwoods are your typical use case.

4. I bought my P2 second-hand with the standard cutter and the small assortment systainer.  I got the diamond cutter from Colonial Saw, which is the main US distributor for Lamello.  I have no experience with other retailers for consumables or the unit itself.

 

[SoonerFan]

I have all three (500, 700, P2).

1. I used clamex connectors to reinstall a piece of face trim / filler strip in my kitchen that needs to be removed if you want to get the dishwasher out for service.  This has come in handy more than once since I first found every last screw and nail that originally held that piece in place.

2. I can't speak to this personally.

3. The diamond cutter is intended to be used on abrasive materials like laminate/chip board, which tends to have glues and other additives that will dull the standard cutter more quickly.  The standard cutter is intended for hardwoods, and should provide cleaner cuts than the diamond cutter if hardwoods are your typical use case.

4. I bought my P2 second-hand with the standard cutter and the small assortment systainer.  I got the diamond cutter from Colonial Saw, which is the main US distributor for Lamello.  I have no experience with other retailers for consumables or the unit itself.

Thanks for input. I did not know that the carbide cutter would produce cleaner cuts on hardwoods.  That saves me $100 thus making the justification slightly easier  [smile]

 

[luvmytoolz]

I have all three with the Zeta being the last one purchased. While I love the Domino's and their versatility, the Zeta has been surprisingly useful, far beyond what I originally thought it would be. I've found joinery uses for it that even the Domino's weren't capable of or practical for. I did buy the aftermarket PCD and TCT blades, and have been using the TCT blade the last 6 months or so with no perceptible difference, apart from the massive cost saving.

If I could only choose one, it would be the DF700 as that would cover the bulk of what I do, and I could buy the DF500 cutter adaptor if needed for smaller sizes, but the Zeta is just such an incredibly useful tool to have, and in my opinion is worth every cent. It's astounding just how easily it makes doing frames, carcases, shelves, etc. If you can even barely justify getting it, I'd be amazed if you regretted getting it after some use.

Another use I found the Zeta fantastic for is attaching archs and skirts, really makes things so much easier.

By far one of the biggest benefits I very sorely underestimated, and is a major understated benefit of the Zeta, is the ability to glue and immediately assemble components without needing clamps, and then move on with the next stage of the project. This is an incalculable time and effort saver, not needing to clamps things like mad, and wait for glue to dry before being able to progress further with the task. For a cabinet shop or installers particularly, this represents a massive cost saving.

I'll link to a post I made that shows some of the really tight and fiddly molding joinery I used it on, as well as discussing the cheaper connectors and blades available:
https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/other-tools-accessories/lamello-zeta-project/msg722629/#msg722629

 

[SoonerFan]

[member=75933]luvmytoolz[/member] thanks for the feedback. The more I research and learn about the Zeta P2 the more it seems like a great tool. I will likely purchase one. I had previously read the other thread you linked. It contained a bunch of great information.  Thanks again.

 

[luvmytoolz]

[member=28223]SoonerFan[/member] It's a seriously amazing tool, and quite unique in what it does. For the question of cordless vs corded, for any tools like this I would always personally prefer corded as I'm hooking it up to a dust extractor anyway.

And I would think it's rare you'd simply use it for just one or two slots, so I'm not convinced about the convenience factor of cordless for this tool, as you'd ideally still need to connect to a dusty doing more than 2-3 slots. The exception probably being if you used a cordless dusty onsite, in which you'd hook it up to the dusty but not need mains.

I think though that if I did so much work offsite the cordless would be of real critical use, I'd probably buy that as a second one so I'm also then covered in the event of a failure.

This video by Spencer Lewis shows a really good use case that practically paid for the Zeta on just this job:
=37s

 

[rst]

Northeast Woodworks also does a couple videos on using the Zeta.

 

[peter halle]

It's interesting that I have seen at least three YouTubers using the Zeta for that same installation - like it is the poster boy for common sense justification.  I am not bashing the tool or those who showed its usage.  If fact I am considering getting one and could see using it more than I use my Domino.

Peter

 

[SoonerFan]

[member=75933]luvmytoolz[/member] and [member=25351]rst[/member] I watched Spencer’s video and both videos by Josh at NE Woodworks.  Spencer’s slat wall came out great and it’s easy to see the productivity Josh gets with the Zeta. Thinking I need to use the funds from the project I am finishing and order one.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[SoonerFan]

It's interesting that I have seen at least three YouTubers using the Zeta for that same installation - like it is the poster boy for common sense justification.  I am not bashing the tool or those who showed its usage.  If fact I am considering getting one and could see using it more than I use my Domino.

Peter

The more I learn the more I can see me using the Zeta in lots of areas and as a great compliment to my DF500.

 

[luvmytoolz]

It's interesting that I have seen at least three YouTubers using the Zeta for that same installation - like it is the poster boy for common sense justification.  I am not bashing the tool or those who showed its usage.  If fact I am considering getting one and could see using it more than I use my Domino.

Peter

I think it's just a case that these slat walls are the perfect example of illustrating how well suited the Zeta is for this and similar applications. That and it's a popular trend to do these wall designs.

Off hand I can't think of any other method to allow dry fitting, assembly and finishing of this sort of work that even comes close to the convenience and usability of the Zeta. But it also does shine in other joinery work as mentioned that I hadn't even considered at first.

 

[Muttley000]

I have had a DF500 for more than a decade. I have had the DF700 for about five years. I use the DF500 more because I build lots of cabinets and face frames. However, there is no substitute for the DF700 when larger tenons are needed.

I do not have but am seriously considering a Zeta P2. I see Zeta P2 advantages for installing face frames, filler strips, eliminating the need for clamps, etc. I also see some advantages of the Clamex connectors over the Domino connectors. For those of you that have a Domino and a Zeta P2:

1. Did you find new uses for the Zeta over time like many of us have for the Domino?

2. I can see myself using Dominos for alignment and building face frames and then install the face frames with Tenso connectors.  Would be great to spray the face frames and then install without visible fasteners. Do you do this?

3. I a leaning toward a corded Zeta with the diamond cutter? Any reason to go cordless I might not be thinking of? Is the diamond cutter worth the extra $100 over the carbide cutter?

4. Any suggestions on U.S. dealers to purchase from?

Since retiring I doing a lot more woodworking. I think if I had a Zeta P2 I would use it a great deal. I know I would use one if I had it to install the face frame and filler strips needed for my current project. Would make install at the clients easier. 

Thanks in advance for any input.

Oak tree supply keeps them in stock and the customer service is top notch!  Amanda there has always taken great care of me.  I stopped there with some Azek scraps a couple weeks ago to verify my justification case to purchase this spring with their demo machine. They did recommend the diamond blade for plywoods.  They will ship to you free and my orders are always shipped within 24 hours.

For the record I did buy a df500, so those that said buy both were spot on for me, and a df700 will eventually find its way in my shop when the time is right too.