If you were (or did) get rid of your table saw only to have a TS + MFT3...
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Greg M
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With a track saw and MFT/3 you're limited in the size of the boards you can cut. Repetitive cuts are limited in size. Speed in getting cuts of different sizes. Difficult, or at least more involved, getting longer cuts exactly the same. The MFT/3 has to be checked for squareness more often.
I've got both set up in my shop and I use both. However, I use the table saw MUCH more often because it's easier and faster. I also get more repeatable results from it. Again, it's FASTER! If you have a larger project that time saved really adds up. I'd hate to try and build cabinets without a table saw. Not saying it can't be done but I wouldn't want to do it.
The huge plus to the track saw, MFT/3 combo is that it is portable and gives you more table saw like abilities in the field.
I went back and read your first post again. I can see your logic in wanting to sell the SawStop. When I first got the MFT/3 (already had the track saw) I entertained the same idea. After the novelty (meaning wanting to use my new tool) wore off I have found myself back to using the table saw for everything. The only time I use the MFT/3 track saw combo is when the cut exceeds the 52" capacity of my table saw or when I feel the cut would be safer using the track saw. I use the MFT/3 all the time but it's used mostly for sanding and domino. I use the tack saw a lot but it's mostly used on a sacrifice table that's on top of my table saw for cutting sheet goods or ripping rough lumber.
You might find that you can do without the SawStop. However, like you said, if you sell it you probably won't be getting it back if you change your mind. Do you want to take that chance? You've got it, it's paid for, so keep it for now. Roll it off to the side and if you don't use it for a year then reevaluate it after that.
That's funny but it's also a very good point.
Good luck with your decision and I hope you make the right choice for your situation.
I've got both set up in my shop and I use both. However, I use the table saw MUCH more often because it's easier and faster. I also get more repeatable results from it. Again, it's FASTER! If you have a larger project that time saved really adds up. I'd hate to try and build cabinets without a table saw. Not saying it can't be done but I wouldn't want to do it.
The huge plus to the track saw, MFT/3 combo is that it is portable and gives you more table saw like abilities in the field.
I went back and read your first post again. I can see your logic in wanting to sell the SawStop. When I first got the MFT/3 (already had the track saw) I entertained the same idea. After the novelty (meaning wanting to use my new tool) wore off I have found myself back to using the table saw for everything. The only time I use the MFT/3 track saw combo is when the cut exceeds the 52" capacity of my table saw or when I feel the cut would be safer using the track saw. I use the MFT/3 all the time but it's used mostly for sanding and domino. I use the tack saw a lot but it's mostly used on a sacrifice table that's on top of my table saw for cutting sheet goods or ripping rough lumber.
You might find that you can do without the SawStop. However, like you said, if you sell it you probably won't be getting it back if you change your mind. Do you want to take that chance? You've got it, it's paid for, so keep it for now. Roll it off to the side and if you don't use it for a year then reevaluate it after that.
rst said:
That's funny but it's also a very good point.
Good luck with your decision and I hope you make the right choice for your situation.
rst said:
When i first went into Masonry Biz, I took many jobs I would not have taken later on once my work became known. It was around 1950 taken on a "filler" job to keep me busy until something better came along. The job was doing footings, slabs, foundations and chimneys for a local developer. I had known about the developer long before he had known me, so the job was strictly Labor with Cash on the barrelhead. When I was finished, the man had the bill in his hand and if I was not paid by the time my truck was loaded for the next job, I was GONE/GONE GONE>>> His reputation for payment was really great.
The carpentry crew were about a dozen or more Swedes who were very fast and neat as far as developer carpenters were in those days. The lead carpenter did all of the door hanging. He was very fast and even tho most of the casing framing and trim were almost always a little out of square and plumb, he could hang a door in minutes. He used a handsaw for trimming top & bottom. His tool for "planing" the vertcle edges was a hatchet. He could go down the edge of a door with that hatchet quicker than i can tell the story.
I only worked on that project for about a dozen houses before i had finished a one car garage foundation for which payment was not handed to me by the time I had cleaned up the job and tools on the truck. as years went by, I often go called upon for some other masonry jobs for the people who had bought the houses. I almost always told them some of my stories about having worked on the houses (after establishing that they had no major complaints >>> of course) and about the carpenter using a hatchet to trim doors to fit. Without exception, none of the owners believed me, but, even tho most of the houses had been remodeled some how, there were always a few doors that maybe had not been replaced. It sometimes required very close scrutiny to prove the doors had been fit with hatchet, but there were a few.
even further down the road, my son had occasion to work for the same builder doing excavating, septic systems and rough grading lots when house were completed. by that time, the original houses were being torn down and mansions put back on same, or expanded lots. My son worked the same sort of deal with the builder as i had so many years before. He got out of there with no money owed. Me, I only got stuck for about $150 and felt very lucky. I have not much recollection about that development other than that carpenter and his hatchet work. The hatchet was like a Broad Axe but only hatchet size.
Tinker
Building a house with an axe? Not sure it's the same thing.
1+ years ago I bought the TS55 with the intent of going without a table saw. I never regretted that and have worked around all tasks I would have gone to my old table saw for. I recently sold the table saw. I don't make a living at woodworking so I just enjoy being in the shop and, if something takes longer but I get th same result, that's fine.
Since dumping the table saw, I have found the doing dados with a handheld router or on a route table is better than with a dado blade; at least I feel the result is a much better quality and more accreted dado.
I have cut picture frames with my TS55 and MFT and the result was again much better and more accurate than anything I've ever done with a table saw.
I have done some ripping with the TS55, but tend to rip smaller pieces with my bandsaw, then joint the edges. The result is at least as good as with the table saw. I had to use the jointer most times anyway with the table saw. I would say ripping, period, is the only job I do in my shop that I makes me miss my table saw. For my work I could get by with a job site saw if I could find one that had great dust collection and is a high quality saw. I won't mention brands because I have no interest in getting into that discussion.
So, can you get along without a table saw? Probably, but it would be tough if you were a carpenter, a professional woodworker, a remodeler, or another wood related trade that required you to be the most efficient with your work time as possible. As for me, I enjoy the challenge of trying do without it and I really like the less risk involved using something other than a table saw. I'm careful and respect tools, but I'm getting older and it only takes a fraction of a second to make a serious mistake that has bad consequences.
1+ years ago I bought the TS55 with the intent of going without a table saw. I never regretted that and have worked around all tasks I would have gone to my old table saw for. I recently sold the table saw. I don't make a living at woodworking so I just enjoy being in the shop and, if something takes longer but I get th same result, that's fine.
Since dumping the table saw, I have found the doing dados with a handheld router or on a route table is better than with a dado blade; at least I feel the result is a much better quality and more accreted dado.
I have cut picture frames with my TS55 and MFT and the result was again much better and more accurate than anything I've ever done with a table saw.
I have done some ripping with the TS55, but tend to rip smaller pieces with my bandsaw, then joint the edges. The result is at least as good as with the table saw. I had to use the jointer most times anyway with the table saw. I would say ripping, period, is the only job I do in my shop that I makes me miss my table saw. For my work I could get by with a job site saw if I could find one that had great dust collection and is a high quality saw. I won't mention brands because I have no interest in getting into that discussion.
So, can you get along without a table saw? Probably, but it would be tough if you were a carpenter, a professional woodworker, a remodeler, or another wood related trade that required you to be the most efficient with your work time as possible. As for me, I enjoy the challenge of trying do without it and I really like the less risk involved using something other than a table saw. I'm careful and respect tools, but I'm getting older and it only takes a fraction of a second to make a serious mistake that has bad consequences.
WarnerConstCo. said:
[attachimg=1]
Is that dangerous?
Yes it was. The lad, my son, spent many an hour riding and operating to the extent of his own strength while sitting on my lap. Later, I stood on the loader bucket behind him holding him onto the seat while he got all movements down pat. He had to follow ALL safety measures (a stretch to call allowing him even near the equipment, but it was nearly impossible to keep him away) or off for the day, or week. He had to learn how to feather (ease) the controls to the point he would never jerk the machine nd thus throw himself off. there were many rules he had to obey while standing on the ground watching me operate. He had to have practically an encyclopedia worth of knowledge in his head long before operating alone. I am sure many here do not go along with my reasoning for teaching my son so early. Believe me, it was NOT forced learning. I am sure that Darcey knows exactly where I am coming from, where I have been. I am sure that some day he will be as proud of his kids for the knowledge and practical application his teaching will have lead them to. My kid has a much larger and more successful business now than I ever had. Our daughter is as accomplished and well respected in her own line as our son. They both had to be taught at a very early age how t repeat machinery without fear. My success is measured in the success of my kids who both had to learn fem a very hard headed task driving father. I have always taught them to have respect for machinery as well as they would respect people around them.
Tinker
Oh yeah! i am sure somebody will recognize no hard hat. I guess that is the one safety measure i could not (did not) require. I neve wore one either. But I am somewhat of a hard head.
WHT
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WarnerConstCo.
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Reminds me of the time my oldest, three at time, climbed up on the roof of my shop to see what I was doing.
She got a quick lesson in what not to do and then spent the next two hours tossing me shingles.
Recently, all 3 were helping me work on my parents roof.
Rather have them there with me then climbing up and down ladders.
She got a quick lesson in what not to do and then spent the next two hours tossing me shingles.
Recently, all 3 were helping me work on my parents roof.
Rather have them there with me then climbing up and down ladders.
thedude306
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great picture Tinker.
I have been using my mafell KSS400 for 4/4 and 8/4 stock. Love that saw. I wouldn't want to use my MT55 on that either.
I have been using my mafell KSS400 for 4/4 and 8/4 stock. Love that saw. I wouldn't want to use my MT55 on that either.
Don't sell your table saw, its far more useful than the mft with a tracksaw. Don't fall into the trap of needing to find excuses to buy another festool tool. the mft takes up pretty much the same amount of space. I sold a table saw once for an MFT and it was the stupidest thing I've done, and I've done many stupid things.
felkadelic
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I'm a bit reluctant to weigh in on this because other members have more experience, both with Festool and more generally in woodworking. However, here are my thoughts:
I originally got my TS55 and MFT with the hope that I could potentially abandon my table saw. (I work in a separate single bay of a 3-car garage, so space is at a premium.) However, after messing around a bit I still find myself going to my table saw -- which is pretty well dialed-in with an Incra sled -- for most solid wood tasks. For the scale of projects I do, most solid wood work tends to be smaller scale and I just feel like I get more precise cuts when passing the wood over the blade as opposed to passing the blade over the wood. Sheetgoods are cut almost exclusively at the MFT, though. The TS55 has been a gamechanger in that arena.
In the end, I ended up downsizing my table saw since I was no longer cutting large pieces at the table saw. I got a set of Biesemeyer 32" fence rails on clearance from Grizzly and substituted them for the 52" rails that originally came with my saw. That extra 20-ish inches of space allowed me to considerably reconfigure my shop. In the future I'd even consider going with shorter rails but they'd have to be custom-made or hacked out of a set of longer rails.
I originally got my TS55 and MFT with the hope that I could potentially abandon my table saw. (I work in a separate single bay of a 3-car garage, so space is at a premium.) However, after messing around a bit I still find myself going to my table saw -- which is pretty well dialed-in with an Incra sled -- for most solid wood tasks. For the scale of projects I do, most solid wood work tends to be smaller scale and I just feel like I get more precise cuts when passing the wood over the blade as opposed to passing the blade over the wood. Sheetgoods are cut almost exclusively at the MFT, though. The TS55 has been a gamechanger in that arena.
In the end, I ended up downsizing my table saw since I was no longer cutting large pieces at the table saw. I got a set of Biesemeyer 32" fence rails on clearance from Grizzly and substituted them for the 52" rails that originally came with my saw. That extra 20-ish inches of space allowed me to considerably reconfigure my shop. In the future I'd even consider going with shorter rails but they'd have to be custom-made or hacked out of a set of longer rails.
I think the answer is that the Festool (or any other brand) track saw compliments the table saw in a woodworkers shop. Any other discussion about replacing either tool depends on what work you are doing. I make furniture and if I had to have "ONLY" one it would be the table saw. Others folks depending on their main work might make another decision so look at what you want to do before you make a decision.
Jack
Jack
smartcarpie
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In my shop I run a Unisaw, a TS55, a TS 75, and use a Dewalt 745 jobsite saw. I also keep a Bosch 4000 as a backup. Both site saws are in Rousseau tables giving them out feed and large rip capacity. I want them all.
As a professional I am in this to make money. I am always looking at the most efficient way to get thru a task. A great example yesterday was taking a piece of 5" wide 1 1/8" stock down to 1". I could have planed it. Couple passes, but I keep my planer to the side to open up floor space. Ripped on edge in the Unisaw with a high blade in two passes in about ten seconds, with a decent face left. Done.
If I need to rip a bunch (more than one) piece to identical size, the track saw will NEVER touch the table saw for speed and efficiency. I do often parallel rip multiples with the track saw but usually only if I don't want to take the time to get out a table saw on a site. Wouldn't even consider it in a shop setting.
Angled cuts, track saw wins. Strait lining live edge stock, might be a toss up, but even the 75 doesn't have the same kind of power the table saw has, and I've used a sled to true up lumber just fine, even the old plywood nailed to the piece trick.
Table saws are beautiful crosscut and tenoning machines when set up correctly.
To make a living I desire simple, reliable and predictable, and I want it fast. Festool makes some wonderful jigs to accomplish precision work in any setting, say the parallel guides. I own them, and they work well. But in a production setting I find them fussy, delicate and time consuming compared to just setting the fence and pushing.
And therein lies the trouble with this debate. You have hobbyists and pros (all of who make different products with different expectations) all weighing in. To me the concept of apples to oranges applies more to the users than the machines here.
I have done many things that I'm sure would make a hobbyist cringe. I have access to a 20" jointer with no guard. It is a machine that commands respect. But I don't know another that can do what that machine can as far as flattening pieces as big as you can handle in a hurry. Saw kickback? It's a fact of life for professional carpenters. It happens. So you learn to be ready for it and not be in the way when it happens.
Tools are dangerous. The trades can be dangerous. I am not in this business because I am looking for the safest lifestyle. I am in it because I can make money at it. So I do what I can to anticipate risk, weigh it, and mitigate it. If this was a hobby I would probably have a different set of priorities like saving space, cost, safest, kid friendly, whatever.
I know I'm tired and rambling but I believe safety is the responsibility of the operator. Being aware of how dangerous your environment can be is important. I don't text and drive either, as I think fooling around with my phone in a three ton box at sixty mph is a little scarier than the occasional kickback from a saw.
To each their own. Just be careful no matter what your comfort and skill level is.
As a professional I am in this to make money. I am always looking at the most efficient way to get thru a task. A great example yesterday was taking a piece of 5" wide 1 1/8" stock down to 1". I could have planed it. Couple passes, but I keep my planer to the side to open up floor space. Ripped on edge in the Unisaw with a high blade in two passes in about ten seconds, with a decent face left. Done.
If I need to rip a bunch (more than one) piece to identical size, the track saw will NEVER touch the table saw for speed and efficiency. I do often parallel rip multiples with the track saw but usually only if I don't want to take the time to get out a table saw on a site. Wouldn't even consider it in a shop setting.
Angled cuts, track saw wins. Strait lining live edge stock, might be a toss up, but even the 75 doesn't have the same kind of power the table saw has, and I've used a sled to true up lumber just fine, even the old plywood nailed to the piece trick.
Table saws are beautiful crosscut and tenoning machines when set up correctly.
To make a living I desire simple, reliable and predictable, and I want it fast. Festool makes some wonderful jigs to accomplish precision work in any setting, say the parallel guides. I own them, and they work well. But in a production setting I find them fussy, delicate and time consuming compared to just setting the fence and pushing.
And therein lies the trouble with this debate. You have hobbyists and pros (all of who make different products with different expectations) all weighing in. To me the concept of apples to oranges applies more to the users than the machines here.
I have done many things that I'm sure would make a hobbyist cringe. I have access to a 20" jointer with no guard. It is a machine that commands respect. But I don't know another that can do what that machine can as far as flattening pieces as big as you can handle in a hurry. Saw kickback? It's a fact of life for professional carpenters. It happens. So you learn to be ready for it and not be in the way when it happens.
Tools are dangerous. The trades can be dangerous. I am not in this business because I am looking for the safest lifestyle. I am in it because I can make money at it. So I do what I can to anticipate risk, weigh it, and mitigate it. If this was a hobby I would probably have a different set of priorities like saving space, cost, safest, kid friendly, whatever.
I know I'm tired and rambling but I believe safety is the responsibility of the operator. Being aware of how dangerous your environment can be is important. I don't text and drive either, as I think fooling around with my phone in a three ton box at sixty mph is a little scarier than the occasional kickback from a saw.
To each their own. Just be careful no matter what your comfort and skill level is.
WarnerConstCo.
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Guards get in the way on any jointer over 16"
Jeffonebuck
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If I was still in business I would have loved to had these products. I'm all for being safe and I have had my run in with the tablesaw and seen lots of injuries. I have not seen or been a part of any injury that wasn't called a stupid uncalled for mistake by the injured afterwards, in reflection. Festool takes safety in mind on how they engineer there products and they could probably build tablesaws and jointers and have 50 or so more products but I think safety plays a part in their decisions and they stay within their Niche. As for OP's original post I would have never went to a job site without a tablesaw. Time is Money ! Sawdust means I'm making Money
Paul G said:
I've been reading every reply and appreciate all the feedback. It's the help I needed making up my mind along with me only using my TS since my post. I'm keeping my SawStop. Many of the posters gave excellent reasons why but the ones that resonated with me but ironically the things that made it the easiest for me to decide where operations that I had challenges performing or would end up more time consuming without the tablesaw. I also noticed, consistently across almost all of the posts, that very few people actually said I got rid of my tablesaw and have never looked back. Like everyone, I very much like my TS55 but there are certain operations that are just easier (and in some cases much) on a table saw and since I have it, I might as well keep it. A solid example is an operation that I do quite frequently. I use a 2 x 4 and cut it down for test pieces, wall cleats, and other tasks where more expensive lumber is less than desirable. Slightly altering the dimensions of the 4 to 6 foot long board that starts at 1.5 x 3.5 or less is a fairly difficult task to perform with a track saw on a table with simple fixturing. I'm sure overtime I get good with coming up with fancy ways to do it but it's a 30 second task on a table saw.
My time in the shop is valuable and I'd rather spend my time working on projects themselves instead of figuring out new ways to do something I already know how to do. If I didn't already have a table saw I'd probably be content with a contractor saw instead for the space saving alone.
I are also in the same boat. I own a large general 3hp cabinet saw which takes up room in my small shop. I also use a TS55 as well and 2 tables. My question is can the TS55 and the Bosch 4100-09 with gravity rise stand replace my cabinet saw and still produce the saw quality of work, or should I keep the cabinet saw and find work a rounds.
thx
Lambeater
thx
Lambeater
thedude306
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[member=8309]lambeater[/member]
The 4100-09 won't replace a cabinet saw. There is just no way you can support product on a portable saw like you can with a full cabinet saw. Unless you mount your portable in a permanent table of sorts. I have the out riggers on mine and they help with long skinny pieces but still don't allow you to cut a full sheet of 3/4" on your own. But with the track saw, it works great and is a good compliment.
I also find that the 4100 with GR stand takes up a LOT of room. The only reason for that stand is that it makes it easy to move. But you still need space to store it, if that make sense. But it's the best stand I have ever used. I put one under my axial glide as well. But there too it is just as big folded up as it is set up. (I actually leave the miter GR stand set up, just up against a wall when not it use so I can still make short cuts without pulling it out)
I would have gone with the smaller bosch if I was doing it again and have it flush mounted in a table. But I wouldn't want to get rid of the GR and 4100 for onsite work. It's always a compromise (or I just need more money, time and room)
oh, the quality of cut is top notch. With a good blade it works as good as the general 3hp I have access to in my brothers shop for all but the "big" wood. And I usually go to the band saw for that anyways.
The 4100-09 won't replace a cabinet saw. There is just no way you can support product on a portable saw like you can with a full cabinet saw. Unless you mount your portable in a permanent table of sorts. I have the out riggers on mine and they help with long skinny pieces but still don't allow you to cut a full sheet of 3/4" on your own. But with the track saw, it works great and is a good compliment.
I also find that the 4100 with GR stand takes up a LOT of room. The only reason for that stand is that it makes it easy to move. But you still need space to store it, if that make sense. But it's the best stand I have ever used. I put one under my axial glide as well. But there too it is just as big folded up as it is set up. (I actually leave the miter GR stand set up, just up against a wall when not it use so I can still make short cuts without pulling it out)
I would have gone with the smaller bosch if I was doing it again and have it flush mounted in a table. But I wouldn't want to get rid of the GR and 4100 for onsite work. It's always a compromise (or I just need more money, time and room)
oh, the quality of cut is top notch. With a good blade it works as good as the general 3hp I have access to in my brothers shop for all but the "big" wood. And I usually go to the band saw for that anyways.