"I'm too poor to afford cheap tools"; What Festools exude value?

[friedchicken]

I'd expect it's not an unheard of theme or lesson among festool's customers; buy once cry once; A job that's worth doing is worth doing right; The cheap boot principle of poverty; Don't stick your head into a lion's mouth...

What Festool tools offer tangible value... for a normal person.  I'm sure a planex is great for the one time a decade I'll use it... same with the exo-armour or whatever it's called.  Thing is I'm a normal person who uses normal person tools normally.

This means: screwdrivers, routers, circular saws, miter saws, impact drivers, jigsaws, vacuum...

I was very tempted by the HK55. I store my larger tools (miter and table saws) in a separate shed, the HK55 could sit in my garage and allow me to make quick cuts w/o getting everything out.  Right now my solution is a swanson square and a makita circ saw or Bosch jigsaw.

The thing that drives me nuts: it breaks standards.  I will never adopt metric for woodworking, and I will be very hard pressed to get tools that don't follow standards where they exist (blades, chucks, filters, etc.).

So looking at the Festool lineup, some things are no-brainers, and some things are for people with no brain.  The other players in the market cannot be ignored either.  Personally I'm a fan of Bosch.

That said; I'm tempted by the Kapex 120.  The reason is simple, it's a tool I will need for the rest of my life.  I have the massive Bosch Glide with the gravity stand right now.  It's great, makes precise cuts, but the tool itself is only precise where necessary; it's clunky.  It's very heavy.  The miter stop device is plastic (wtf Bosch).  The extension rails seemingly require a hammer to use.  It's big.  It takes standards 12" blades where very good ones can be had for not a million billion dollars.  I bought a Dewalt masonry blade for like $2 on sale lol.  If it were a pokemon, it would probably be snorlax.  The glide mechanism is brilliant, as is the zero clearance.  The gravity rise stand is great.  Did I mention its size?  I'm tempted by the Kapex, the stand, and the extensions...  $2300... But non-standard blades... That just leaves a total bitter taste.  Did I mention how massive the Bosch glide is?

Impact drivers and screwdrivers.  These are lifetime tools.  Both I have out in my garage constantly.  I use the Bosch Freak impact driver for automotive work constantly.  The 1/2" anvil with 1/4" hex chuck is brilliant.  Power is overrated.  I leave it in its lowest setting 95% of the time and only turn it up for that occasional stubborn bolt.  85% of its use is on cars; sometimes I also drive screws with it.  The drill (guess what: Bosch... Brushed this time!) gets used an order of magnitude less, but it gets its use.  Thus I'm tempted by the: "Impact Driver and Drill set TID 18 HPC I-Set TPC 18/4".  From what I've read/youtubed the star of that show is the TPC 18 drill, with the TID 18 being the sideshow.  See my use case; Festool has it flipped!  Still, this would be a lifelong purchase.  I've used the Bosch impact for close to half a decade and see no reason it won't go a decade more.  It broke once, I fixed it.  I use it every day.  Reviews conclude the TID 18 is the one grabbed the most when it's available, even if its specs don't promise nuclear performance.  Sticking point: expensive proprietary batteries.  I don't like batteries or battery tools; I've capitulated with the Bosch system (and the AMPshare platform!).  I'm not against just having every type of battery and charger around simply out of spite against being pigeonholed.

The TPC 18 drill is tempting.  It's the star of that kit; from the reviews and information it's got that X-factor of awesome.  Four speeds, covers the needs, and has hammer functionality that I've never needed but could see myself needing in future;  I suspect also it's available with the Bosch AMPShare platform... sort of.  This might all be a contender.

No, the tool that really stands out to me, and will probably be my next Festool purchase (after the DTS400), is the OF1400 Router.  Reason is simple: Festool gets the basics right.  That's it.  Porter Cable used to have that, and is what I currently run (The D-Handle!)  All other routers fucking suck or barely scrape above acceptable.  Dewalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Bosch, Metabo... even if the base tools does its thing, the accessories are crappy plastic afterthoughts made without any regard to use.  I used to have a Metabo router, it literally exploded in my hand, fell onto the floor, and shot across the garage.  Had I been injured, the doctor bill would have exceeded any and all festool purchases.

Additionally: the OF1400 respects standards, runs off of a universal electrical system, has quality accessories, has good storage capabilities, and I'm sure has additional niceties.  Right now I have an old Porter Cable D-Handle that checks those boxes as well, but its manufacture and support is discontinued.  A router will live with me for the rest of my life; so it's the example of an answer to my original question: "What Festools exude value?"

 

[Packard]

When I was just learning studio lighting for my photography business, there were no people I could depend on for answers to my mistakes. And there was no internet. 

If I used cheap equipment and got unsatisfactory results, was it me?  Or was it the cheap equipment that was at fault. 

For that reason I alway purchased professional grade equipment. 

And keeping in mind that feedback on results took two weeks each time (using film).  So good equipment meant any mistakes were mine and not the equipment.

I have kept with that philosophy as I am entirely self-taught on woodworking. (Lots of experiments.)

Books, magazines, and much later the Internet pitched in on my education.  None of which offered much in the way of risk avoidance. 

In fact, I think a thread on “Risk Avoidance” might be useful.  I’ll think about it.

 

[cpw]

For building furniture, the things that exude value for me are:
- Domino.  There is nothing else like it.  I can do fast and precise joinery and build more pieces than I otherwise could.
- Festool Sanders.  The ergonomics are just that much better.  I had a 5" Dewalt ROS and the vibrations would cause numbness after a while.  The Festool standers do not.
- The OF1010 and LR32 is great at shelf pin boring, better than any drill based jig and there is no way I could justify an actual line boring machine in terms of space or expense for my hobby.
- The Festool dust extractors are just more comfortable to use than a shop vac.

I have a lot more Festool tools, and am happy with pretty much all of them.  The CXS I just never got into, and keep reaching for my Dewalt impact/drill.

I have a super heavy Dewalt 12" slider.  I have it on a Bosch stand now.  It was on an old style RIDGID MSUV that I got for $22 on clearance.  The combined weight was 120lbs or thereabouts, a real challenge to get it into my truck bed.  I've thought about a Kapex, but I worry about it's longevity.  Also I can't stomach that the extensions are metric or imperial and not both; the promo for this holidy IIRC was for metric.  I work mostly in inches; but do like the combined scale on my Sawstop.  I built some cabinets this month where I actually mixed and matched.  Most dimensions were inches, but for the side panels, I used metric to be an even multiple of 32mm so that the shelf pins would be symmetric.

 

[Packard]

Norm Abrams made frequent use of his Delta radial arm saw on his TV show.  For some operations, it is the ideal tool.

Sears did a disservice to buyers by shipping Radial arm saws with the sliding bearings set “loose” to make the slide feel like no friction at all.  That loose setting invites blade climb when cutting.

If you can feel any up/down slack in the sliding arm, the bearings are too loose.

 

[Imemiter]

For me, above all else, the quality that most defines the value of Festool is their approach to designing a compact and portable shop system. It's not just one discreet tool, it's the whole package. It's easy enough to see that's what they're up too, but the finer details of how well everything works together didn't really hit me until I was using six or seven tools together. 

 

[usernumber1]

the only festool that 'exudes' value is the domino and the various dust collection 'systems'

i don't get this talk of standards and how much you hate working in metric seems irrelevant. if you can't get parts or supplies / festool network is available anywhere you can get the tools from.

also lifelong purchase? that's going to be interesting to see if they provide batteries in 30years, or less even

 

[Jim_in_PA]

There is no reason that the whole metric vs inches even has to figure into things with Festool tools in the US; most currently have inch scales either inherent or available. The only tools that are truly "metric" regardless are the two Dominos because that's the size of the mortises they cut. It's not relevant to project dimensions other than choosing the size of Domino tenon that's appropriate for the thickness of the material you are working with and the strength required for the task. I actually do work in metric these days, but I honestly never look at the scales on the tools that have them other than the Domino. And when I'm doing something in inches, the process is the same. I measure with the measuring tools and system I'm using at the moment.

I've long been an advocate for not buying poor quality tools. Interestingly, the things I use in the shop for woodworking are all Festool other than my impact driver which I bought for finishing out the shop building. It's from Harbor Freight (Bauer) and uses the same battery as the battery landscaping tools I use for strimming, etc. I like the Festool system. I've had great support from both folks I have purchased from ("Uncle Bob" early on before he retired and ToolNut since) and the stuff just works. Many of my Festool tools date to the mid-2000s and look and work like new.

My favorite Festool tools are my sanders, routers and CXS drill/drivers. They all get constant use in my projects.

I do think there is value in keeping the number of battery systems to a minimum so that's what I've done in that realm. I do have a few non-Festool handhelds that I've either had for a very long time or purchased for a specific reason. One example is a DW618 router because there are times I prefer a fixed base and low center of gravity. My angle grinder is DeWalt...and old. My multi-tool, which rarely gets used, is a Ridgid. All of those now live in Systainers, however.

 

[Lincoln]

The Kapex 120 is the best out there - expensive, but well worth it.
The TPC18 drill, also a fantastic tool, well worth the money.
The impact driver - no, not a fan of this one. Sold mine recently.
Have had a OF1400 router since about 2008 and it's great - unless you're a user of guide bushings. The 'play' makes it less than ideal.
I thought they would have expanded the cordless line up by now, a planer is a particular want for me.

 

[friedchicken]

the only festool that 'exudes' value is the domino and the various dust collection 'systems'

i don't get this talk of standards and how much you hate working in metric seems irrelevant. if you can't get parts or supplies / festool network is available anywhere you can get the tools from.

also lifelong purchase? that's going to be interesting to see if they provide batteries in 30years, or less even

Corded tools should still be around in 30 years.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Corded tools should still be around in 30 years.

I've been buying, and still own Festool tools that are over 40 years old that I use daily. I have a fairly sizable investment in Festool, and over the years so far I've had to replace the control module in my RS2E sander, and I have a 13 or so year old CT36 dusty that currently doesn't power on, but that might be the brushes or the control board as I haven't gotten around to opening it up. But it has done many thousands of hours permanently hooked up to my CNC machine so it's definitely proven it's worth.

I have however murdered an amazingly high number of cheap tools that combined had quite a high value, and were a case of just throwing money down the drain.

For the health, ergonomic, reliability, and performance factors I never have qualms buying anything from Festool. I haven't been disappointed yet in any tool I've bought. I also subscribe to the "being good to neighbours" rule of not making unnecessary noise to annoy them, and most of Festool's tools are well below noise levels of other brands allowing me to use them more and for longer periods.

Then of course the super cool factor, like the Domino's, routers, sanders, etc. Just a sheer joy to use!

 

[smorgasbord]

The thing that drives me nuts: it breaks standards.  I will never adopt metric for woodworking, and I will be very hard pressed to get tools that don't follow standards where they exist (blades, chucks, filters, etc.).

I know others have chimed in on this as well, but I just can't resist.

Metric is THE standard. The official definition of an "inch" is 2.54 centimeters. NIST has a blog on it:https://www.nist.gov/pml/owm/si-units-length

I grew up the US and was Imperial for years. A few years I started switching, and will never look back. Metric is far easier and less mistake prone. And more accurate in an Imperial world dominated by 1/16" measurements versus every metric tool in my shop having millimeters (1/25.4") and more easily split than 1/32" markings on the "finer" tools.

Matter of fact, I now completely dislike combination markings - just give me metric. All day, every day.

I even question why time wasn't metricized. There should be 100 seconds in a minute and 100 minutes in an hour. For hours in a day, well I guess 20 works best. Too bad the earth doesn't travel around the sun in 100 days a year. So, the worst thing you can say about metric is that God didn't use it for planet earth.  [blink]

 

[woodferret]

HK55 seems an odd choice.  A square and sidewinder is good enough.  If you had said you were doing repeat angles or compounds, then sure the HK55 would make sense.  Don't buy a Festool.  You'll end up with self-loathing given how much identity attachment you have to brands.  It will have no value to you.

I hate the new lifestyle marketing FUSA has.

 

[squall_line]

I also subscribe to the "being good to neighbours" rule of not making unnecessary noise to annoy them, and most of Festool's tools are well below noise levels of other brands allowing me to use them more and for longer periods.

I go back and forth contemplating purchasing a Byrd Shelix head for my neighbor's DW735 just to reduce the annoyance of having to listen to it from across the street whenever he uses it (which is usually in warmer months and after his kids have gone to bed).  The fact that he has said that I can borrow the 735 if I'd like is another minor factor in that, of course, but still, that thing screams with the stock knives...

 

[luvmytoolz]

I go back and forth contemplating purchasing a Byrd Shelix head for my neighbor's DW735 just to reduce the annoyance of having to listen to it from across the street whenever he uses it (which is usually in warmer months and after his kids have gone to bed).  The fact that he has said that I can borrow the 735 if I'd like is another minor factor in that, of course, but still, that thing screams with the stock knives...

Absolutely do it, you will not believe the difference in noise, effort and quality of cut!

There's not much you can do about the brushed motor the DeWalt uses, but the spiral head will make an unbelievable difference in every way, well worth every cent.

I have one on my thicknesser and my Festool HL850 planer, and plan to change my Jet 10" combo over to one as soon as I can get the specs to have a head manufactured.

 

[Cheese]

I don't even know where to start on this one.  [huh]

 

[onocoffee]

Anytime I hear someone (always American - especially those who think they're "patriotic") piss and moan about metric (like 731), I just roll my eyes. It's an utterly stupid and idiotic thing to work yourself up over.

I can work in both metric and imperial, but have been moving more and more towards metric in most aspects of work and life. One one hand, metric is simpler. On the other hand, it just means you are more capable to handle whatever comes your way.

And as Jim noted, the only tool that really skews towards metric is the Domino. Thinking of it now, my TS55 has an imperial depth scale as I casually noted the metric replacement scale wedged into the instruction manual. I just set the depth visually to ensure I get the cut I want.

Buy the tool you want that fits your need. Buy the best you can. It's a simple formula.

 

[usernumber1]

i thought his beef with metric was all the accessories are dimensioned for metric, like the kapex blade size, arbor size, collet, chuck sizes etc
he also mentioned filters not sure what tool has filters

it does make it harder to walk into a homedepot to get a blade.
so if you're used to just what you see at HD and lowes and all you are used to are throwaway brands then you might question this festool noise too.

so you have to switch to festool or cmt brands. also bosch or fein which are all premium price now
taking care of your tools
resharpening blades
stocking accessories ahead of time

its a big ask you guys

 

[mino]

I'd expect it's not an unheard of theme or lesson among festool's customers; buy once cry once; A job that's worth doing is worth doing right; The cheap boot principle of poverty; Don't stick your head into a lion's mouth...

What Festool tools offer tangible value... for a normal person.  I'm sure a planex is great for the one time a decade I'll use it... same with the exo-armour or whatever it's called.  Thing is I'm a normal person who uses normal person tools normally.

...

TPC18 -- get it the sooner the better. The most value you get out of that tool is the less drills you already have - as it will take care of most of that scope for a hobby user.

For a complete scope on drills, a hobby user can get along with:

CXS 12 (non-set)
TPC 18 + all the special chucks (work also on the CXS) as the daily driver, use the impact only for light touch, for rest see below
A monster Makita/Dewalt/MW 120+ Nm drill for the truly heavy-duty work.
Later, wanting more drills (and chucks) on hand, add a T18+3 (basic) or a used T18 Easy to the above as the go-to drill.

As other have said, there is nothing special about the HK55, even the HKC 55 is not special (unless coupled with the FSK for a Pro) compared to a cheaper Makita/Dewalt/etc. professional 6" saw.

The HK 85 is a different discussion, but there is no 110V version around for the US friends.

As for routers, as a hobby user, I would respectfully steer you towards the OF 1010 R and augmenting it with a cheaper "high power" one or keeping one you already have for 1/2" work.

The biggest value in the Festool routers is precision and that is personified in the OF 1010 with its ability to center the templates with a mandrel. A feature the OF 1400 does not have.

 

[MikeGE]

The biggest value in the Festool routers is precision and that is personified in the OF 1010 with its ability to center the templates with a mandrel. A feature the OF 1400 does not have.

My OF 1400 has this ability, but no thanks to Festool.

I had to have a special centering mandrel made, but now I can use the Porter Cable style copy rings on the OF 1400 with confidence they will not move. The mandrel for the OF 1010 is on the right for comparison.

 

[jeffinsgf]

i thought his beef with metric was all the accessories are dimensioned for metric, like the kapex blade size, arbor size, collet, chuck sizes etc
he also mentioned filters not sure what tool has filters

That's how I read it, too.

When I bought my track saw, few people in the United States had ever seen one. I immediately saw the value of not fighting full sheets across a table saw, ponied up the money to get one and have never looked back. 20-some years later I'm still using the same saw. I would never...ever...consider running anything other than a Festool blade on it. I have three of them, all of which are maintained exclusively by Leitz and will easily outlive me. I've long since forgotten what I paid for them and even what I paid Leitz to sharpen them last. As stated above, the tiniest bit of pre-planning negates any down-side to metric arbors or specialty sizes or grinds. Use the tooling designed for the machine and be happy they're so well matched.

While the Festool track saw may have pioneered the concept originally (at least in the U.S.), it's been copied now and some of the copies are okay. But from what little I've looked into it, it doesn't appear that any of the copies have brought anything significantly new to the table, just "almost as good" performance at a slightly better price. Great for those who are strapped for cash.

My next Festool purchase was the OF-1000. It joined a stable of other good routers, but if the job at hand can be done with an 8mm or 1/4" shank, there is no question whatsoever which one I will be reaching for. Power, noise level, ergonomics, ease of adjustment...it has it all. It has held the #1 ranking in my router stable for over 20 years. Just recently a Milwaukee cordless has snuck in and taken away some of its lighter duty jobs, but more than once I've switched mid-job because the cordless was struggling and the OF-1000 put a smile back on my face.

I have others, too, but the Festool that changed the way I work in the shop completely is the Domino. I balked at it for years, since I had countless other ways to cut a mortise. Then I used the one we have at work when I first started here and ordered one of my own within a week. I do not care that the mortise is metric. I do not care that I have to use Festool tooling (not entirely true, but that's a different discussion). I can make incredibly strong joints quite literally in the blink of an eye. I know and accept that Ace Hardware isn't going to bail me out on a Sunday afternoon. I have an extra set of bits in my tool cabinet that just sit there waiting for the day I do something stupid.

I would never walk away from Festool performance because I can't buy the tooling at Home Depot.