"I'm too poor to afford cheap tools"; What Festools exude value?

[friedchicken]

Re: Metric.

It's both.  I do all my woodworking in Imperial, and all my woodwork tooling is Imperial.  I don't like the metric system for woodworking at all, and I should emphasize: I am a scientist intimately familiar with the metric system.  The base 12 of the foot means it can be cleanly divided by 2, 3, 4, and 6.  Base 10 can be divided by 2 and 5, both prime numbers.

Additionally, the units themselves are not arbitrary.  An inch is approximately the distance of the center bone of my index finger, a foot is... about the length of a foot.  These are useful units, at least for woodworking.  It's kind of perfect actually.

Finally, it's a standard.  Boards are 4' x 8'. Studs are 32" apart.  Piping is 1/2" or 3/4" NPT.  To muddy those waters would be flat-out stupid on my part.  Someone mentioned American patriotism... I'm not sure what to say to that.  That's entirely a falsehood, but to force metric where everything is standard.... That's unfiltered european arrogance.

Additionally, it's the same thing with replacement blades, replacement bits, replacement whatever.  1/4" hex shank, 7 1/4" circular saw blade, vacuums take filters btw.  There's another benefit: sticking with standards allows leveraging and taking advantage of new tech that emerges that will follow said standards... i.e. maybe a new type of bit made of depleted uranium or something.  Value comes in versatility, and this is decidedly not festool's strong point (See the DTS and RTS that used to be the same sander, but festool decided people could buy two instead... Bosch gives you three).

And yes, sometimes you need to spontaneously run to home depot or ace or wherever b/c you don't have the tool you need, even if you try to stock up on everything you might need (which I decidedly do!).  Worst case you have to go and buy a brand new tool, at which point that value proposition just flew out the window.

TPC18 -- get it the sooner the better. The most value you get out of that tool is the less drills you already have - as it will take care of most of that scope for a hobby user.

For a complete scope on drills, a hobby user can get along with:

CXS 12 (non-set)
TPC 18 + all the special chucks (work also on the CXS) as the daily driver, use the impact only for light touch, for rest see below
A monster Makita/Dewalt/MW 120+ Nm drill for the truly heavy-duty work.
Later, wanting more drills (and chucks) on hand, add a T18+3 (basic) or a used T18 Easy to the above as the go-to drill.

As other have said, there is nothing special about the HK55, even the HKC 55 is not special (unless coupled with the FSK for a Pro) compared to a cheaper Makita/Dewalt/etc. professional 6" saw.

The HK 85 is a different discussion, but there is no 110V version around for the US friends.

As for routers, as a hobby user, I would respectfully steer you towards the OF 1010 R and augmenting it with a cheaper "high power" one or keeping one you already have for 1/2" work.

The biggest value in the Festool routers is precision and that is personified in the OF 1010 with its ability to center the templates with a mandrel. A feature the OF 1400 does not have.

I've been eyeing the TPC18.  You really like it that much?  It looks very similar to the Fein ASCM18-4 QMP.  I think it might even be made by Fein?  Festool would probably have better support/availability here.  Someone near me is selling the TPC18 + TID18 kit for a reasonable price.

We'll see, I only have limited use for a drill and my brushed Bosch has done all I need it to and done it well.

That's a really interesting point about the OF1010R: smaller requires more engineering.  I wholeheartedly agree.  I still run the OG iPhone SE: I think it's a way more impressive phone than any of the gargantuan monsters apple makes now.  It gets more attention from people who care, that's for sure

Thing is I use both 1/4" and 1/2" bits, and if it were up to me, I'd use exclusively 1/2" shank bits.  I need the 1/2" shank.  The 1400 will seemingly handle all my routing needs.  I'm not sure about the ergonomics of it;  I really like my D-Handle porter cable.

It sounds like I'm railing on festool pretty hard here, and I am.  The only reason I'm seriously considering them is because they're seemingly the only company making and selling properly built tools (and accompanying accessories!).  Everything else feels like a race to the bottom or is such a new player to the game they get an A for effort, but C for execution.  This whole thing started when I got my DTS sander, held the thing, realized the support network behind it, saw the storage container it came in, noticed the details, and understood that Thank God somebody somewhere is able to do things right.

 

[mino]

..
I've been eyeing the TPC18.  You really like it that much?  It looks very similar to the Fein ASCM18-4 QMP.  I think it might even be made by Fein?  Festool would probably have better support/availability here.  Someone near me is selling the TPC18 + TID18 kit for a reasonable price.
...

These are indeed the "same" tool, essentially. The motor/gearbox assembly is done in collaboration with Fein. Not sure which factory actually makes it, does not really matter.

I do not "like a tool", and even if did would not advise a purchase just because I like something.

I have the DRC 18/4 (the predecessor). As a hobby user, I know that had I bought it the first time I set my eyes on it, back in 2005 or so when it came out, I would have saved 5+ purchases that had "covered" the scope up until I got the DRC eventually. That included two corded drills, 3 cordless ones I remember and possibly some I do not.

And all that at having a better drill to use all that time. So a €500 "direct "saving" and a couple thousand on the saved time from not having to use compromises. The space saved from not having to store all those drills all the time on top of that.

This is the biggest "problem" with the TPC (and the DRC/PDC before it). The is THE tool for a hobby user to get first. Yet, it is almost never bought by that user until after one has 3+ drills lying around and then the TPC becomes more nice-to-have than best value.

All that said, considering you mention to get by with just an old brushed drill, no hammer or impact drill even, it tells me you do not do all that much work up till now.

As such, do not overthink it.

For a starting hobby user here are the things I would go for, in order:
1) CXS 12 + EX-UNI and DC UNI FF (for home drywall and decking work)
  - gives you a Festool charger and a go-to install driver/drill

2) the base Festool rail system:
FS/2 1400 LR32 + FS/WA + a pair of Makita rail clamps (or check Bangood for some screw rail clamps)
Makita SP6000 track saw (good price, works well with FS/2 rails, easy to sell-on if/when deciding to upgrade from it)
  - gives you ability to properly process sheet goods, avoid Makita rails, the accuracy of the FS/2 rails is why they cost as much as they do but the saw is OKish, as long as guided along a precise rail
  - add FS/2 1080 + FS/1900 + a Makita connector set as soon as budget allows

3) CT Midi
  - this is an absolute must for any wood processing, if cost is a problem, go with the CT 15

4) OF 1010 R + add almost all the various accessories to it, the available accessories is what makes this one a jack of all trades, master of many, many are not available for the bigger routers

5) Get a used ETS 125 R or the "Pro 5" finish sander and couple it with the Edge Guide.

---
X)when budget/need calls:
TPC18 Basic + a 3.0 battery + AN-UNI
TSO parallel guides set for the rails, 30" variety
LR32 system - Guide Plate FP-LR 32  (skip the set version, other components in it are easy to wing it)

Where you reached here, you would have a much better understanding of your needs so I will stop.

 

[Duckler]

Please don’t be so smug about the “official definition” thing. If you spend some time to investigate the definition of a meter, and the speed of light, and so on you will inevitably realize that re-defining the standards has happened before.
The meter was defined differently in the earlier part of the 20th century than it is today.
I am sure this forum has others who could comment in more detail about this.

 

[smorgasbord]

Please don’t be so smug about the “official definition” thing. If you spend some time to investigate the definition of a meter, and the speed of light, and so on you will inevitably realize that re-defining the standards has happened before.

I think you're missing my point, which is that the Imperial standard is, today anyway, based on the Metric standard. So, the OP saying metric "breaks standards" and "doesn't follow standards" is, well, backwards.

Matter of fact, there are only 3 countries that don't mandatorily use metric: Liberia, Myanmar, and, yeah, the US. That said, even the US has a national policy to adopt metric.

See previous threads, including one parody on George Washington discovering metric....

 

[mino]

Please don’t be so smug about the “official definition” thing. If you spend some time to investigate the definition of a meter, and the speed of light, and so on you will inevitably realize that re-defining the standards has happened before.
The meter was defined differently in the earlier part of the 20th century than it is today.
I am sure this forum has others who could comment in more detail about this.

Actually, it was not. A metre is a metre for all practical purposes since the first meter Calibre was manufactured. Not unless you are going for a play of words.

What happened was that the way we *measure and transfer it* was upgraded in accuracy as the technology improved, allowing us to do away with Calibres on the international level and move to a physical constants-based definition. The "original" Calibre is still stored in a museum and still is within its original specifications, as it was 100+ years go.

What changed is we decided to define the metre using discreet physical properties of light which are reproducible anywhere without the need to compare and transport Calibres around. The new "definition" chosen is within/inside the original accuracy tolerance of the master Calibre. You can call it a definition change only in that context, not in the context of a general debate on standardisation.

 

[Chappy27]

Here is my dilemma.  I am a missionary with Fellowship of Christian Athletes.  Moved with my job 2 years ago and had to sell all of my tools because I had nowhere to store them.  Now I have absolutely nothing.  I am looking for a miter saw, sander, track saw, router, dust collection and a jig saw.  I used some Festool products when I sold my tools and know the quality, but to buy all I need would be right at $5k. 

I can buy "cheaper" brands, but after working with Festool products, it's hard to go back to Dewalt, etc.  I'm just struggling with the money for it all.

 

[luvmytoolz]

[member=82615]Chappy27[/member] I would consider buying Festool gear for the most crucial roles, taking into account the frequency it would be used, the time and labour savings, required accuracy, and ergonomics, as well how much pleasanter and easier overall the experience would be, and for the less important or infrequent roles, buy somewhat decent but cheap tools that hopefully last long enough.

 

[friedchicken]

[member=82615]Chappy27[/member] I would consider buying Festool gear for the most crucial roles, taking into account the frequency it would be used, the time and labour savings, required accuracy, and ergonomics, as well how much pleasanter and easier overall the experience would be, and for the less important or infrequent roles, buy somewhat decent but cheap tools that hopefully last long enough.

This is exactly what my original question is; what festool tools fit that bill?

I think the OF1400 does that really well, as well as the TPC.  The circular saw uses proprietary blades (and seemingly only comes with a battery as the HK55 looks discontinued?).

To clarify the side discussions on imperial vs metric (really that's a discussion for a different thread), by "break standards", I mean blades, bits and other pieces proprietary to festool.  The Kapex, track saws, and centrotec all use proprietary or european sized wear items.

 

[Chappy27]

[member=82615]Chappy27[/member] I would consider buying Festool gear for the most crucial roles, taking into account the frequency it would be used, the time and labour savings, required accuracy, and ergonomics, as well how much pleasanter and easier overall the experience would be, and for the less important or infrequent roles, buy somewhat decent but cheap tools that hopefully last long enough.

This is exactly what my original question is; what festool tools fit that bill?

I think the OF1400 does that really well, as well as the TPC.  The circular saw uses proprietary blades (and seemingly only comes with a battery as the HK55 looks discontinued?).

To clarify the side discussions on imperial vs metric (really that's a discussion for a different thread), by "break standards", I mean blades, bits and other pieces proprietary to festool.  The Kapex, track saws, and centrotec all use proprietary or european sized wear items.

Yes sir!  Agree totally!

 

[mino]

[member=82615]Chappy27[/member] I would consider buying Festool gear for the most crucial roles, taking into account the frequency it would be used, the time and labour savings, required accuracy, and ergonomics, as well how much pleasanter and easier overall the experience would be, and for the less important or infrequent roles, buy somewhat decent but cheap tools that hopefully last long enough.

This is exactly what my original question is; what festool tools fit that bill?

I think the OF1400 does that really well, as well as the TPC.  The circular saw uses proprietary blades (and seemingly only comes with a battery as the HK55 looks discontinued?).

To clarify the side discussions on imperial vs metric (really that's a discussion for a different thread), by "break standards", I mean blades, bits and other pieces proprietary to festool.  The Kapex, track saws, and centrotec all use proprietary or european sized wear items.

There is nothing proprietary about the Festool blades. They use standard 20 mm or 30 mm arbors, As pretty much every single maker in the world does.

That the US sticks to "imperial" arbors while the rest of the world has moved on is a different matter. But there is nothing preventing someone using other blades as many users here do.

True, you cannot get the garbage consumables from the hobby markets in US .. but, frankly, that is a positive as you know no insane person did that with a used Festool saw in the US.

---
There is nothing "proprietary" about Centrotec, not anymore than any other quick-change chuck system, that is.

As sold, the drills accept standard hex bits directly into the shaft and include a hex bit holder as well. That you *can* use quick-change Centrotec bits directly in the quick-change chuck as they are concentric-enough that even drilling with them is feasible is a benefit in addition of being able to use all the other methods.

I am not sure today, but I believe Leitz made the Festool blades last time I remember. Those blades cost good money because they are top quality. Not because "they are Festool".

You started this thread looking for advice on best /overall/ value, yet you seem to be focused more on the bang-for-the-buck aspect with all comments.

I would advise you rethink what you are looking for. If just for tools that "do not break every week/month", you may well be better served by the Makitas/Dewalts/Millwaukees of this world.

Festool is the "Mercedes" brand of the tool market. It can be an incredible value if you drive a lot of long distances or if you do value the comfort and the safety. But if you are looking just for a durable car you expect to use rarely, comfort be damned, you are better off with a Toyota.

 

[onocoffee]

[member=82615]Chappy27[/member] I think Luv's thoughts are on the money. Buy Festool for what you need most. It's what I've been doing this year (albeit at a brisk rate), starting off with the ETS EC 150/3. To my mind, the sanders are where it's at. The other tools are no doubt excellent but where you readily see the difference is with the sanders. From there, I got the CT MIDI and now it's just a build up. But I come from having a solid range of DeWalt and Makita. The Kapex would be great but, if I'm honest, it's one of the lowest priority tools for me. Right now, I'd like to get the RO90 and ETS 125 next.

 

[luvmytoolz]

This is exactly what my original question is; what festool tools fit that bill?

I think the OF1400 does that really well, as well as the TPC.  The circular saw uses proprietary blades (and seemingly only comes with a battery as the HK55 looks discontinued?).

My opinion is that just from the router perspective, aside from Maffell's offerings that are usually more expensive, there is no finer router than the festool ones. the OF2200 is a marvel of technology, and a pure delight. The OF1400 is similarly great. I can't speak to the OF1010 as I don't have that model yet, but I would expect it to be as good.

I don't think I've ever heard of anyone saying they regret buying an OF1400 or OF2200. Money well invested.

 

[luvmytoolz]

[member=82312]onocoffee[/member] +1 for the sanders, they are absolutely phenomenal and were a large part of my gateway drug into the Festo world roughly 45 years ago!

I was extremely happy with my original 40+ year old RO1E Rotex, but the new 90mm/150mm models are off the planet with just how good they are!

And I don't think there's a better R/O sander on the market than the ETS EC's!

 

[Chappy27]

[member=82615]Chappy27[/member] I think Luv's thoughts are on the money. Buy Festool for what you need most. It's what I've been doing this year (albeit at a brisk rate), starting off with the ETS EC 150/3. To my mind, the sanders are where it's at. The other tools are no doubt excellent but where you readily see the difference is with the sanders. From there, I got the CT MIDI and now it's just a build up. But I come from having a solid range of DeWalt and Makita. The Kapex would be great but, if I'm honest, it's one of the lowest priority tools for me. Right now, I'd like to get the RO90 and ETS 125 next.

Great thought!

 

[woodferret]

Complaining that you can't just go to HD to buy some random saw blade for your TS55 is odd.  Calling it a standard is even odder, consider there's absolutely no control over the tooth overhang, which subsequently impacts where your splinter guard gets cut.  Taking the accuracy 'hit' just to have the convenience of not going to your Festool dealer (even ordering online) is just plain puzzling to me.

Again, if accuracy isn't a concern, then you're looking into the wrong black hole.

 

[Cheese]

Hmmm...resignation quietly intrudes.

I'm so ready to just put this discussion down the road. When I first read this post, I thought it was just a troll to fan the flames...and now after several days of the same old stuff, I realize it is exactly that. Time to move on, it's just an exercise in mental masturbation and nothing positive will ever be accomplished by contributing to this foolishness. Let the poster just purchase his saw blades at Home Depot and attach them to whatever saw he chooses...metric or imperial.

 

[friedchicken]

Hmmm...resignation quietly intrudes.

I'm so ready to just put this discussion down the road. When I first read this post, I thought it was just a troll to fan the flames...and now after several days of the same old stuff, I realize it is exactly that. Time to move on, it's just an exercise in mental masturbation and nothing positive will ever be accomplished by contributing to this foolishness. Let the poster just purchase his saw blades at Home Depot and attach them to whatever saw he chooses...metric or imperial.

Umm.. my questions are genuine?

 

[mino]

Umm.. my questions are genuine?

The issue is, they are completely out of touch.
It is not possible to achieve premium good results with garbage consumables. Period.
---
I will try to phrase this as universally as possible also for the posterity reading this:

Bad tool, bad consumables (Home Depot & Co.)
=> very bad results + shortest tool lifespan

Bad tool, quality consumables
=> bad to OK-ish results (if tool not too bad) + short (but not shortest) tool lifespan

Quality tool, bad consumables
=> bad results + short tool lifespan (bad consumables prematurely destroy the quality tool)

Quality tool, quality consumables
=> good results + good tool lifespan /i.e. as expected/

Quality tool, top-end consumables (Festool/Mafell/Leitz ..)
=> good+ results + good+ tool lifespan /i.e. better than with stock consumables from tool maker/

Top tools (Festool/Maffel..), bad consumables
=> bad results + mediocre tool lifespan (tool gets destroyed by consumables, warranty voided)

Top tools (Festool/Maffel..), quality consumables
=> very good results + very good tool lifespan

Top tools (Festool/Maffel..), top-end consumables (Festool/Mafell/Leitz ..)
=> excellent results + top tool lifespan (with maintenance counted in decades)

---
In short:
with the exception of using general quality consumables with top tools, all sensible scenarios call for equivalent or better consumables than is the tool level. Across the board. This is "common knowledge" among everyone with some trades experience. Be it hobby or professional. Though I can imagine an "outsider" may not realise that.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Bad tool, bad consumables (Home Depot & Co.)
=> very bad results + shortest tool lifespan

Top tools (Festool/Maffel..), top-end (Festool/Mafell/Leitz etc.) consumables
=> excellent results + top tool lifespan (with maintenance counted in decades)

^This x 1000%!

Funnily enough just yesterday I had this same discussion with a mate I just sold a Festool sander to, and I gave him a stack of Festool discs for it, including some I'd bought around 45 years ago.

After having had crap tools and consumables for so long to start with, I sorely underestimated just how good a quality media can be, and stocked up on what I thought would last a while given how quickly I went through them!

Needless to say I've been giving most away over time, as I've realised in the last several years I'll never actually be able to use them all as they last so well!

Quality tools and media are staggeringly superior to lesser tools and media, and vastly cheaper in the long run!

 

[kevinculle]

I have a fairly high value Festool in my 2009 vintage Kapex with UG stand and extensions.  I bought it used in about 2015 for 50 cents on the OEM price dollar.  As to impeccable quality I did need to lap the fence casting flat when I found it to be slightly under the needed 180 angle between the flats.  As to consumables, I started with the factory blade, but you can have the Forrest blade on my Kapex when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

I have a shop of stationary tools bought new over the past 40+ years, US made Delta and Craftsman as well as import Delta, Dewalt, Jet, etc. ...the Kapex is my only stationary machine bought used.  All of them (including the Kapex) required fettling to get the best results and all of them (fettled) work just fine for me.  If I had bought the Kapex setup new it would have about equaled the combined prices of my tablesaw, drill press, jointer and planer...not inflation adjusted, of course.

My portable power tools are Dewalt for battery power with a mix of Bosch, Porter Cable, Makita, and Dewalt with power cords...I do also have a Festool CT26 shop vac, which I like but for the value label I would point to my Nilfisk vac.  YMMV.