"I'm too poor to afford cheap tools"; What Festools exude value?

[derekcohen]

That's what I've found: there aren't any good routers around.  I've looked at the dewalts, makitas, bosch; I had a metabo HPT that literally exploded in my hands...

The DeWalt DW625E should certainly be a good purchase as it's their clone of the ultra-reliable and venerated ELU MOF177E after B&D bought ELU. In fact if all you wanted was a fantastic grunty workhorse, any second hand ELU MOF177E or even the smaller 96 would be very worth purchasing. Same goes for older model Makita's, they're loud but reliable and powerful. Some of the newer model Makita's are very nice indeed, not as good as Festool though of course.

While I own and use a wide selection of hand power tools, I do think of myself as predominantly a non-power hand tool user. Perhaps it is because many of my hand planes are over a century old that I am not phased by purchasing used power tools. But, as with hand tools, the better quality power tools can last and last .... as long as you do not treat them like fashion and upgrade because of the latest doodads and features which will not be used.

Save for a couple of Makita trim routers, all of my routers are Elu, the first one (177e) was purchased new 30 years ago, and the other purchased used. One required new bearings at the time, but all work as they should. There is a second 177e in a router table.



I have several "Festool" tools from when they were badged "Festo". This makes them 20-25 years old. This includes a tracksaw, a pre-150 era ROS (the ET2E) and an orbital (RS400e) ...



Okay, the tracksaw is not Festo, but it is 20 years old, made of aluminium, not plastic, and cuts wood as well as any current Festool tracksaw ...



I recently purchased a CSX 18 to replace a Panasonic 12v I had from new 25 years ago. Largely because my plan was to reduce battery chargers, and not because of performance issues. I tried to give it away, but no one wanted it! It is back in service - I just could not bear to see it lost in the corner of a storage shed. It may be a little larger and heavier than the CXS 18, but it is such a well-designed, powerful and balanced drill, plus I have an emotional attachment as it was the second quality tool I purchased new all those years ago. Do others have an emotional attachment to power tools?  [crying]



There are others. The point I am (so obviously) making is that quality power tools may be expected to last a lifetime for weekend warriors. Second hand quality tools, if chosen wisely, will do the same. This means Festool and a few others.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[friedchicken]

That's what I've found: there aren't any good routers around.  I've looked at the dewalts, makitas, bosch; I had a metabo HPT that literally exploded in my hands...

The DeWalt DW625E should certainly be a good purchase as it's their clone of the ultra-reliable and venerated ELU MOF177E after B&D bought ELU. In fact if all you wanted was a fantastic grunty workhorse, any second hand ELU MOF177E or even the smaller 96 would be very worth purchasing. Same goes for older model Makita's, they're loud but reliable and powerful. Some of the newer model Makita's are very nice indeed, not as good as Festool though of course.

While doing a bunch of routing work (after my other router literally exploded), I bought a Makita D-Handle (why oh why does NOBODY make a D-Handle?!?!).  It looked and felt nice;  I wanted to keep it, but the trigger lock on the handle was recessed in such a way you had to contort your trigger hand to get your thumb on it (like, legit dangerous I'm not even joking), or use the other hand to depress it.  Returned it immediately.  It was such a small detail, but the second I held it I knew there was no way.

I got lucky and found a porter cable D-Handle and that trigger lock looks and feels like a flimsy tiny nubbin but sits exactly where you need it (not recessed) and works perfectly.

You know, it's crazy.  IMO routers are one of the most precision instruments in the shop, and nobody seems to get them right.  I've looked and held a bunch.  The plunge machanism is crunchy, the release is non-linear, requires excessive force, and/or launches the router unexpectedly since it either locks or doesn't.

Then even if the router is decent quality, the accessories (that need probably even more precision!) are an afterthought joke!

I actually just saw a review showcasing the Dewalt.
It's looks like all dewalt: a brilliant piece of engineering cost cutting.  The Dewalt planer I have embodies that.  It's good.... but every single thing you touch you get the impression that if they'd cheaped out even 5% in any way: thickness, material, alloy, machining tolerances, it would be terrible.... but they didn't.  They nailed it.

Here's the review:

Look carefully at the depth screw... Just.... come on......  Same with the height adjustment knob and lever.... It really doesn't take much to do this properly, but the various manufacturers just don't.

 

[luvmytoolz]

[member=4358]derekcohen[/member] My Festo gear is so old it came in large grey metal cases!

And with the exception of the RO1E, the very first Rotex released around 1980 that I sold not long back, the tools are all still in very frequent use without issue!

 

[HighlandMarine]

Do you have a Festool extractor yet? CT midi or CT26 are both excellent choices. You said you’re tempted by the Kapex, take advantage of the campaign combo price at 2300 or you’ll be paying 2600 next year. One of my favorites to use, and will never own another miter saw. Skip the hkc55 and save for the Mafell KSS, their tools are amazing, the P1cc jigsaw is also amazing. (If Festool, go trion, not carvex. If your PC routers turn 1/2” bits, I’d recommend the OF1010 first. (Bought the 1400 first not having handled a 1010, which then became the go to once added later.)

 

[luvmytoolz]

I actually just saw a review showcasing the Dewalt.
It's looks like all dewalt: a brilliant piece of engineering cost cutting.  The Dewalt planer I have embodies that.  It's good.... but every single thing you touch you get the impression that if they'd cheaped out even 5% in any way: thickness, material, alloy, machining tolerances, it would be terrible.... but they didn't.  They nailed it.

DeWalt didn't nail it with that router, it's literally the exact same ELU177E model but in a different colour!

Before B&D got taken over they bought ELU to revamp and raise the quality of their offerings. If you bought a 40 year old ELU you wouldn't notice any functional difference between them. The ELU's were so good, there was simply no way of significance to improve them other than the Trend version where I believe they designed better dust extraction. This was the only drawback to these routers.

 

[usernumber1]

it doesnt look to me you care about festool or any other premium brands. you can get better sanders from surfprep or mirka and you can get a better router from mafell

to me festool is about a system of dust collection and you dont seem like the type who brings a vacuum to a jobsite. it's also a blend of woodworking and cabinetmaking which again does not cross over to any construction or repair work

you need to be flexible with consumables it's not going to be festool in north america

if you got an eye for some specific feature yea go for that OF 1400 it's a solid router you're buying the router. its packed with plenty of good stuff a 'normal person doing normal work' like you will appreciate

 

[friedchicken]

I actually just saw a review showcasing the Dewalt.
It's looks like all dewalt: a brilliant piece of engineering cost cutting.  The Dewalt planer I have embodies that.  It's good.... but every single thing you touch you get the impression that if they'd cheaped out even 5% in any way: thickness, material, alloy, machining tolerances, it would be terrible.... but they didn't.  They nailed it.

DeWalt didn't nail it with that router, it's literally the exact same ELU177E model but in a different colour!

Before B&D got taken over they bought ELU to revamp and raise the quality of their offerings. If you bought a 40 year old ELU you wouldn't notice any functional difference between them. The ELU's were so good, there was simply no way of significance to improve them other than the Trend version where I believe they designed better dust extraction. This was the only drawback to these routers.

I'll give it a look.  When I saw that review, I was surprised at how good it looked; especially the top stop limit you can set (no need to plunge 3-inches for a 0.5" bit.

 

[derekcohen]

I actually just saw a review showcasing the Dewalt.
It's looks like all dewalt: a brilliant piece of engineering cost cutting.  The Dewalt planer I have embodies that.  It's good.... but every single thing you touch you get the impression that if they'd cheaped out even 5% in any way: thickness, material, alloy, machining tolerances, it would be terrible.... but they didn't.  They nailed it.

DeWalt didn't nail it with that router, it's literally the exact same ELU177E model but in a different colour!

Before B&D got taken over they bought ELU to revamp and raise the quality of their offerings. If you bought a 40 year old ELU you wouldn't notice any functional difference between them. The ELU's were so good, there was simply no way of significance to improve them other than the Trend version where I believe they designed better dust extraction. This was the only drawback to these routers.

I retrofitted the dust catchers (insets) from DeWalt for the Elu 177e. The MOF 97 did not need this (it already had some of the best dust collection of any mid-size router), and I think the one for the MOF 96 came from Trend. More recently, I "upgraded" the (middle-sized) MOF 97 from 1/4" to 8mm with the DeWalt collar (The Elu also  came with a 3/8" collar, but who uses this size?). The difference between 1/4" and 8mm is quite substantial and takes this router up a level in range.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[onocoffee]

[member=78045]friedchicken[/member] I hear you. The non-standard size of the Festool blades is not too much of an issue for me - and my local dealer would have to order the 1.8mm kerf blades for my TS55 FEQ since they mostly have the 2.2mm kerf blades. If I had a situation where replacement blades would be in the critical category, I'd order one or two and just have them always on hand.

 

[Cheese]

WOW, is there some MILWAUKEE LOVE there..... [eek] [eek] [big grin] [big grin]

[tongue] Got that habit from my dad...he purchased his first "real" drill in 1949. It still works and he used it everyday over 35+ years for commercial HVAC installations. It's on the 3rd set of brushes and still uses the original armature.  [big grin]  Buy once, cry once.

[attachimg=1]

 

[rst]

You have to love the offset chuck from the forties and reintroduced by Festool and European makers.

 

[Jim_in_PA]

You have to love the offset chuck from the forties and reintroduced by Festool and European makers.

Yea, and it's probably geared to be a real beast of a drill!

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I wanted to keep it, but the trigger lock on the handle was recessed in such a way you had to contort your trigger hand to get your thumb on it (like, legit dangerous I'm not even joking), or use the other hand to depress it.  Returned it immediately.  It was such a small detail, but the second I held it I knew there was no way.

Spoken by an obviously right-handed person, who doesn't see the struggle that the rest of us deal with on a daily basis. It's not your fault, virtually everything is designed that way.
Much of the time, a lefty has trouble avoiding locking triggers, merely by holding the handle.
The OF 1010 and OF1400 do a fairly good job. The lock is still somewhat in the way, but it is recessed enough to not be automatically engaged.

 

[Jim_in_PA]

I wanted to keep it, but the trigger lock on the handle was recessed in such a way you had to contort your trigger hand to get your thumb on it (like, legit dangerous I'm not even joking), or use the other hand to depress it.  Returned it immediately.  It was such a small detail, but the second I held it I knew there was no way.

Spoken by an obviously right-handed person, who doesn't see the struggle that the rest of us deal with on a daily basis. It's not your fault, virtually everything is designed that way.
Much of the time, a lefty has trouble avoiding locking triggers, merely by holding the handle.
The OF 1010 and OF1400 do a fairly good job. The lock is still somewhat in the way, but it is recessed enough to not be automatically engaged.

Crazy', while I'm a righty by birth, wrist surgery has made me "embrace the left" a whole lot in the last year, so I do understand what you mean.

 

[Cheese]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member]
To your point about the varying box sizes of your Milwaukee collection. I've been building shop carts to 418mm width to fit Systainers but thought I would see if my other tool boxes would fit. The steel box for my 1990s era full-size 7.25" DeWalt 575 Circular Saw will fit in the 418mm x 320mm space. Yet, the plastic molded case for my cordless 6.5" DeWalt 18v DC390 is too big for the space. Unbelievable!

But I am curious - why the yellow SysLocks? Does it have to do with cheese?

Hey [member=82312]onocoffee[/member] is that case for the cordless DeWalt saw blow molded by chance? Blow molded cases...what a waste of space.  [sad]

I've tossed all of my blow molded tool cases and replaced them with something that's more space responsible. Unfortunately, I still use one for a Milwaukee 8" metal saw and a Milwaukee mag drill but that's because the tools themselves are so large.

As far as the Sys-Locs...a number of years ago I decided to organize the Festool woodworking tools much the same way as you'd organize your mechanics tools. Screwdrivers in one drawer, sockets in another. So, like tools received like colored T-Loc latches on the front so that they would be easily identifiable from a distance. Those dinky labels are impossible to read from 15 feet away.

Yellow - All sanding discs and sanders from 125/150 mm
Black - DF 500/DF 700 tools and accessories
White - All things routers & router related
Red - RO 90 stuff
And the list goes on...

As far as the red latches on the Mafell go, Mafell boxes are pretty well marked and can be recognized from across the room on their own.  [smile]

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

 

[krudawg]

I gotta ask; how did you print those labels - Gee I wish I had those on my Systainer

 

[jeffinsgf]

Cheese, I'm a little surprised to see your Systainers stacked. Drove me nuts. No matter how I organized them, what I needed was always in the middle. I have routers and track saw on full extension drawers where I can pull the tool out without removing the case. The sanders, abrasives and the rest are on close clearance modified IKEA shelves. Only takes up a little more space and eliminates the stacking shuffle.

 

[Cheese]

I gotta ask; how did you print those labels - Gee I wish I had those on my Systainer

I'd be more than happy to send you the print file that I used but there are no guarantees.  [smile]  I got what worked for me on a Mac using a HP printer and some pvc cards I purchased from Amazon. Just PM me and I'll send the stuff off tomorrow.

 

[Cheese]

Cheese, I'm a little surprised to see your Systainers stacked. Drove me nuts. No matter how I organized them, what I needed was always in the middle. I have routers and track saw on full extension drawers where I can pull the tool out without removing the case. The sanders, abrasives and the rest are on close clearance modified IKEA shelves. Only takes up a little more space and eliminates the stacking shuffle.

Jeff I understand completely, I've lived that life.  [smile]  This whole thing only became viable because I was constrained to a small basement shop with limited storage options. The old 10# of you know what in a 5# bag.  [crying]  It was a very effective stop-gap measure but one that will be revisited once all this stuff moves to the new garage. I'm expecting to build lots of drawers but the colored latches will still allow quick identification of like-tools.

 

[jeffinsgf]

Jeff I understand completely, I've lived that life.  [smile]  This whole thing only became viable because I was constrained to a small basement shop with limited storage options. The old 10# of you know what in a 5# bag.  [crying]  It was a very effective stop-gap measure but one that will be revisited once all this stuff moves to the new garage. I'm expecting to build lots of drawers but the colored latches will still allow quick identification of like-tools.

Fully understand the limited space dilemma. If you want to short-cut your storage cabinets a little, IKEA has a Sektion model cabinet that is just about perfect...just a tiny bit too deep for a Sys, so I have a 3-ish inch block in the back of each. I used IKEA's steel wall hanging bracket and glued up a bench top for it. This is where anything I would normally pull all the way out is stored. Picture was taken before I had the blocks behind the Systainers. They now all stand flush to the front.