"I'm too poor to afford cheap tools"; What Festools exude value?

[luvmytoolz]

Ya, that's what I thought,  [sad]  blow molded cases were designed to be shipping containers, not storage containers. A naked blow molded case will fare a lot better than a naked Systainer as a shipping container. So I get that, but once that blow molded container arrives at my house...it gets the boot because it is so wasteful of space. DeWalt, Milwaukee and Woodpeckers blow molded cases all get put on the sidewalk for someone else to deal with...amazingly after a few hours, they all disappear.  [cool]

I have a strong tendency to agree, with 1 exception. The blow-molded case that comes with the Milwaukee 5615 router serves me very well. It's a 3-piece unit, that has a bottom platform which separates from the clamshell style upper. When opened, it presents the router, sitting on it's base, with clearance for leaving a bit in place.
That ridiculous suitcase-looking thing that they supply with the multi-base kit though......That's a completely different thing. Who thought that was a good idea?

I hate blow moulded cases, and had the biggest collection of them saved over many years, before I decided to be ruthless and get rid of them. I tried to give them away on the forum but couldn't even do that so they all went to the recycler!

I'd happily pay a bit extra if the tools came in even a moderately serviceable and useful, stackable case.

 

[peter halle]

When I got my first Festool I instantly liked the Systainer because unlike the blow molded cases I could add other things to it.  Then as my collection grew and transporting the Festools in their systainers became more of a space issue I started to dislike them.  Now that I don't travel with my tools anymore I like them again for the original reason I liked them.  Oh well, call me wishy washy.

Peter

 

[jeffinsgf]

"I cut them with an old European mortising table."  INCA?

No, I have both INCA band saws and an INCA 570 10" Planer/Thicknesser, but the mortising table is on my KITY K-5. Next time I have the mortising table on it, I'll take some pics. Just looked for some and don't have a single one. Pretty sad for a machine I devoted my life to for 8 or 9 years.

 

[jeffinsgf]

Okay, the tracksaw is not Festo, but it is 20 years old, made of aluminium, not plastic, and cuts wood as well as any current Festool tracksaw ...



Regards from Perth

Derek

I have the same saw, Derek. To me, the 65 was perfect...lighter than the 75 and bigger than the 55. Never understood Festool dropping that size. It is heavy, but that's probably why 20-some years later, it still cuts the cleanest, straightest line of any tool I own.

 

[Michael Kellough]

I have the 65 and the 75 and they weigh the same.
Also have ATF55 and TS55.

It is really true that the 65 is smoothest of all.

 

[Cheese]

I have a strong tendency to agree, with 1 exception. The blow-molded case that comes with the Milwaukee 5615 router serves me very well. It's a 3-piece unit, that has a bottom platform which separates from the clamshell style upper. When opened, it presents the router, sitting on it's base, with clearance for leaving a bit in place.
That ridiculous suitcase-looking thing that they supply with the multi-base kit though......That's a completely different thing. Who thought that was a good idea?

I think you're referring to this item.  [smile]

[attachimg=1]

Ya, it was kind of cool but it just took up too much space so to the sidewalk it went. I put the BodyGrip® router in a Milwaukee steel router case that was made for their early 5600 series routers that allowed you to store the router with a bit attached and also provided additional storage for extra collets, wrenches, trim guides and bases along with the cord.

The only tools that I leave uncased are all the cordless drills and a cordless Sawzall because they're used so frequently. All other tools are returned to their houses after use.  [smile]

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Yes [member=44099]Cheese[/member] that's the one. I have 2 of them, side by side in drawer, specifically built for them
They are some of my "only ever one specific bit" routers. Each has an Amana insert bit, one flush trim, the other pattern. (bottom bearing/ top bearing)
These were far better than the typical case, at the time, from Porter-Cable and the other usual suspects.
Plus, they have actual forged proper wrenches, instead of that cheap stamped steel mess.
Triton used too have them too, but the replacements I got, after the fire, junk. So, I hunted down a nice Din 894 in 24mm, and all is good again. $9 I shouldn't have to spend, but I hate those flat stamped things.
I'm the same with tools going to their home at the end of the day, at bare minimum. Sometimes they are out and back multiple times, it just depends. Most of them are Festool and in the Sysports, but there are other locations, usually drawers. It's all right to hand though. I don't have to go far for anything, except table saws.

 

[Coen]

The thing that drives me nuts: it breaks standards.  I will never adopt metric for woodworking, and I will be very hard pressed to get tools that don't follow standards where they exist (blades, chucks, filters, etc.).

Metric is the standard. Everything else is a convoluted layer on top of that. Even your precious inch was changed to be exactly 25.4mm

Okay, the tracksaw is not Festo, but it is 20 years old, made of aluminium, not plastic, and cuts wood as well as any current Festool tracksaw ...

The newer magnesium bases are stronger and lighter than what the ATF has. Not plastic either. Motor housing material and blade guard looks the same for both of them.

I don't think there are that many things between 50 and 60 mm thick? In fact I can think of more use cases between 70 and 80 that even a TS 75 can't cut but a HK 85 can.

The ATF 65 disappeared when the TS 75 came out, if I remember right. I think the large majority of users have a clear preference between the two in favour of the TS 75. A TS 65 might not have sold that well, mainly eaten into sales of TS 55 and TS 75 and not earn back it's development cost. Especially molded parts have a huge up front cost.
But I'm sure if you approach Festool and offer to carry the financial burden they are willing to make it
But then again... there are some odd choices on what Festool discontinues, so perhaps you are right and they are wrong. Perhaps you can crowdfund the risk  [tongue]

 

[Coen]

You know, it's crazy.  IMO routers are one of the most precision instruments in the shop, and nobody seems to get them right.  I've looked and held a bunch.  The plunge machanism is crunchy, the release is non-linear, requires excessive force, and/or launches the router unexpectedly since it either locks or doesn't.

Because you have to overcome static friction, which is a multiple of the dynamic friction. So once you overcome that... you get a huge acceleration with the same spring force. A system that moves smooth will involve more components that are each more vulnerable to malfunction and result in extra cost and weight.

 

[piterkam]

I have been reading this forum for 7 years. But I have not written anything, but I have not written anything, only read. This is the first message. Apologies for my English, I use a translator. I am from Russia.. long-time user, I have a large collection of Festool, which I collected for 15 years. Festool left us in 2022 for reasons (I hope these reasons are not discussed here, but more about the tools)
When they left, they sent through dealers, their warehouse sale.
And when I realized that this would not be on our market anymore, I bought another HKC with 250 rail (I already had one). This is the most used tool in construction.
I wanted to say that when a manufacturer leaves the market, it is immediately clear what you need from the brand first of all. For me - saws, HKC55,  TS60, TSC 55, HK85, Sanding - all ETC EC.., ETSC, RTSC, DTSC, Rotex 150, Rotex 90. Routers-  1400, mkf 700, and Domino 500 and 700. I also have a Fetsool small MINI vacuum cleaner, I love it. And all its models of cleantec are very good. Its hoses and overall convenience are very good.

 

[luvmytoolz]

[member=65668]piterkam[/member] Shame Festool left the market but congrat's on the fantastic array of tools you got while you could!

Festool gear really is for life, some of my tools are approaching 45 years old, and still going strong!

 

[friedchicken]

I have been reading this forum for 7 years. But I have not written anything, but I have not written anything, only read. This is the first message. Apologies for my English, I use a translator. I am from Russia.. long-time user, I have a large collection of Festool, which I collected for 15 years. Festool left us in 2022 for reasons (I hope these reasons are not discussed here, but more about the tools)
When they left, they sent through dealers, their warehouse sale.
And when I realized that this would not be on our market anymore, I bought another HKC with 250 rail (I already had one). This is the most used tool in construction.
I wanted to say that when a manufacturer leaves the market, it is immediately clear what you need from the brand first of all. For me - saws, HKC55,  TS60, TSC 55, HK85, Sanding - all ETC EC.., ETSC, RTSC, DTSC, Rotex 150, Rotex 90. Routers-  1400, mkf 700, and Domino 500 and 700. I also have a Fetsool small MINI vacuum cleaner, I love it. And all its models of cleantec are very good. Its hoses and overall convenience are very good.

Appreciate your sharing this information.

Here's a translator I can recommend: deepl.com

It's German and is very good.  That's an incredible shopping list.  You really went balls to the wall.  What work do you do?

 

[piterkam]

Here's a translator I can recommend: deepl.com

Thank you, I'm testing it out right now.
Yeah, it's a big collection. I started collecting it when I started woodworking in my garage, it was a hobby then (I worked in the IT industry.) I never made anything for custom or sale. Now I bought some land, about 8 acres, and am doing my farm, HKC FSK 250 is my favorite tool to quickly create different things. Plus a vacuum cleaner and rotex. When weather allows, I work with it every day.
As for the rest of my tools, I dont use everything all the time, but the old generation CXS is also my favorite Festool tool that is in my hands almost every day.  I've tried a lot of different types, but the CXS for small jobs is perfect for me. Also I have a couple different Milwaukee impacts (surge 12 and 18, and 12 stubyy 1/2 for my machinery) -they're good

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Hi [member=65668]piterkam[/member] ,

I've had a similar experience with my Mafell KSS 300, and now my KSS 40. The KSS300 is the corded, KSS 40 the 18V cordless version.

This platform uses a 120mm blade, which is certainly not a "standard" blade, but it has become my "Go-To!" saw, to the point that I can't remember the last time I used a 7-1/4" saw. Blade costs are irrelevant compared to the efficiencies the saw yields. I've built additions, decks and basements, as well as trimmed out countless doors, windows, and run miles of base, shoe, and even cut crown moulding with these little saws. In this case, the "non-standard" blade is precisely what makes it special and a unique gem with no peers.

The HKC-50 is a nice saw, comparable to my KSS-400. Here in North America there was a lot of angst when users reports it couldn't cross-cut our standard framing lumber at a 45 degree bevel. In practice I can't remember the last time I had a need to make a bevel cut much greater than 30 degrees on a framing member, and those cuts are typically for roof framing. I imagine most FOG users aren't professional roof framers.

Please continue to post and share your experiences.

 

[Packard]

Maybe I am misunderstanding the premise of this thread.

I am understanding that “exudes value” is the equivalent of “perceived value” a more or less standard marketing term.

Perceives value means the look and feel of the item looks or feels expensive.

I worked in a camera store in the late 1960s and we had a French-made 8mm movie camera.  It had a nice die-cast body with a spectacularly applied painted finish.  The finish was so good that it appeared to be made from molded plastic.

It was a very good camera, but we could never get past the appearance of it.  It looked like a cheap plastic-bodied camera.  We never sold any.

The perceived value was dreadful. 

So are we discussing here “exudes value” = “perceived value”?

 

[Michael Kellough]

[member=65668]piterkam[/member] translation of your last post is perfect. Keep posting.

The Mafell KSS 40 is superb. It’s the CXS of cordless saws.
I love that it can stand upright on it’s battery taking up just a tiny amount of space on a workbench.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Maybe I am misunderstanding the premise of this thread.

I am understanding that “exudes value” is the equivalent of “perceived value” a more or less standard marketing term.

Perceives value means the look and feel of the item looks or feels expensive.

I worked in a camera store in the late 1960s and we had a French-made 8mm movie camera.  It had a nice die-cast body with a spectacularly applied painted finish.  The finish was so good that it appeared to be made from molded plastic.

It was a very good camera, but we could never get past the appearance of it.  It looked like a cheap plastic-bodied camera.  We never sold any.

The perceived value was dreadful. 

So are we discussing here “exudes value” = “perceived value”?

Hi Packard,

For this thread, I think "value" will be very specific to the OP, as he is looking for Festool tools which are compatible with cheap hardware store consumables, which precludes many of Festool's more unique and well engineered tools.

Likewise, a hobbyist who wants to impress their friends will find that some Festool tools provide more value than others, and la professional trim carpenter will disagree with a professional cabinet maker on which tools hold the greatest value.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

[member=65668]piterkam[/member] translation of your last post is perfect. Keep posting.

The Mafell KSS 40 is superb. It’s the CXS of cordless saws.
I love that it can stand upright on it’s battery taking up just a tiny amount of space on a workbench.

Hi Michael,

Yes, I think the KSS 40 is one of my favorite tools. I usually compare it to handling a jigsaw, but I like your analogy of it being "the CXS of saws".

I don't have any other CAS tools to share the batteries, it's a proprietary blade, a niche track system, and a host of other qualities which might preclude from someone else's list, but for my professional needs I haven't found another saw which comes close to matching its versatility and value. The closest would be KSS 400/KSS 50/HKC50 saws, which are too big, and the Makita HS005, which is only available in Japan and doesn't have the track compatibility.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Likewise, a hobbyist who wants to impress their friends will find that some Festool tools provide more value than others, and la professional trim carpenter will disagree with a professional cabinet maker on which tools hold the greatest value.

The first point is somewhat of a double-edged sword. Some may be impressed by some tools that are more expensive than the typical box-store stuff. Others will have no idea what they even are. It's not exactly "my Milwaukee stuff" is better than whatever brand X you compare it too. It would take some kind of like-minded person to be aware.

The second point is much more direct. Trim carpenters and cabinet makers would be quite different in their needs. There would be some overlap, of course, but that would be relative to some degree.

 

[friedchicken]

Maybe I am misunderstanding the premise of this thread.

I am understanding that “exudes value” is the equivalent of “perceived value” a more or less standard marketing term.

Perceives value means the look and feel of the item looks or feels expensive.

I worked in a camera store in the late 1960s and we had a French-made 8mm movie camera.  It had a nice die-cast body with a spectacularly applied painted finish.  The finish was so good that it appeared to be made from molded plastic.

It was a very good camera, but we could never get past the appearance of it.  It looked like a cheap plastic-bodied camera.  We never sold any.

The perceived value was dreadful. 

So are we discussing here “exudes value” = “perceived value”?

No, I'm specifically asking which Festool tools would provide the most value for me, someone who does regular household work at home. As an example, I'm sure the planex would be great, but I would only ever use it once and never again.

I daily my Bosch Freak impact driver.  A miter saw I will have for life.  I really like the idea of the HKC55: I need a nice circular saw.  I don't like that it's Cordless.  The sticking point is that it takes non-standard blades, so if I nick the blade or need a specific blade I have to wait 3-5 days for shipping, or have to spend an additional alot on a collection of every conceivable blade and/or backups.

Right now I'm really gravitating towards the OF1400 as the do-all router, the router being the staple in every shop.  I have 1/2" and 1/4" shank bits.  I might allow myself to get convinced into the OF1010 and give up my 1/2" bits, or use my porter cable D-Handle for that.

I hope this makes sense.