IMPACT DRIVERS AND FESTOOL/PROTOOL

[James Watriss]

I agree with everyone else. I have a Makita 14.4, it's a workhorse.

But for day to day, I'm really falling in love with the lil Bosch 10.8/12V max impact. It's small enough to be pretty much pocket sized... so the need for a clip is lessened, though I definitely relate to the need for some other way to carry it around for ladders and the like. The new Makita and Milwaukee versions are similarly sized, and also nice to have around.

A friend has the Makita 18V drill... one thing I like, the light stays on for a while after the trigger is released. Being able to use the light without pulling the trigger the whole time is very convenient, so a continually on light isn't so far out of the realm of useful. But I do think that it really does lack the innovation that Festool is known for. On the other hand, what normally comes in the multi-piece tool kits these days? Continual-beam flashlights. I think there are pros and cons that some of s may be overlooking, just like many of us overlooked the use of having a light at all on the drills before. So... jury's still out for me.

But it is clunky. It's a drill, not a tactical weapon... come on!

I dunno, though. There's a lot of innovation revolving around the little 10.8/12V units. I've seen single speed drills, 2 speed drills, impact drivers, and a multi-master knock-off from Bosch. (Though I'm told the Multi-X, or whatever it's called, has a short battery life, and lacks the juice of the real deal.) I've also seen a very much abridged sawzall unit from Milwaukee. What's next?

 

[James Watriss]

I was spinning through another thread, and had to come back to this one... with an idea!

Construction-wise, the main difference between an drill and an impact driver is that a drill has a 3 jaw chuck attached to the end of the driveshaft, and an impact driver has a spring loaded rotary hammer assembly on the end of the driveshaft.

But right now, we already have the option to have a 3 jaw chuck, a centrotec holder, or an eccentric, right angle, or screw gun chuck. The driveshaft of hte motor is basically exposed. So... rather than having to design a whole new tool... why not just go the way they did with the light, and have a prosthetic to turn the drill into an impact driver? An impact chuck!

IMPACT CHUCK!!!

I can see possible vibration issues with the electronics, possibly, but I'd buy one of these in a heartbeat.

I'm headed off to the festool wish list board next.

 

[justinmcf]

james you are a legend!
i think you idea is great, maybe festool could jump in and tell us if this is possible.
i would by 2 in a heartbeat!

regards, justin.

 

[James Watriss]

Thanks, Justin...

I appreciate the compliment. But I did a quick search to see if I was really the first person to have this idea.

Tom Gensmer else tried posting about it last October... but nobody responded, and the thread died. Look it up in the main message index, I dug it out of retirement and responded to it, figuring he should get credit for it. It seems to be gathering momentum now... but we'll see. Between this thread and that one, and a separate entry I put up on the wish list board, I should probably be fined for spamming.

I really want to see how big a fire I can start over this... I think it's an idea with a lot of potential, and I'm betting it would be really popular, and might add to sales of the drills, too. There are a lot of people I know who are moving towards "impact only," and they're willing to accept the limitations of the hex shank bits in exchange for the versatility of the tool. So, as long as Festool doesn't do something weird like try to make a centrotec-only impact chuck, I think an impact option would bring more people around to looking at the Festool drills. Makita tried making a drill that's a drill, hammer drill, and impact driver, but it's gotten mixed reviews, since the end result was an overpriced tool, which is a unique combination of an underpowered impact driver, and a drill that's limited by the hex shank only thing. I don't even want to think about the compromises they must have had to make to fit all those functions into one little tool. I think a fully swappable front end is a much better idea that would minimize the need to make compromises, while adding a lot of functionality and versatility to the tools we already have.

Imagine... a fully functional drill and impact driver, with a 3 year warranty? Are you kidding me?

Either way, I'm with you. I already have 3 festool drills, I'd buy at least 2 of these chucks if they came out.

It's funny, though, people seem reluctant to get on board with this idea. 42 views over on the wish list section, but no responses either way, so far. With all the threads we've had begging for impact drivers, you'd think people would want to show support for something like this, to get Festool's attention.

 

[Forrest Anderson]

I guess I assumed Protool did make an impact driver.

Brice

You assumed correctly - Protool do have an impact driver. Two in fact - a 14.4V (IDC) and an 18V (IWC) model, both LiIon. As well as having an impact mode like normal impact drivers, they also have two non-impact modes, giving up to 2000rpm (or 2500rpm depending on which document you read) in 2nd gear. Here's the 18V IWC model:

They call it an Impact Driver/Wrench because of the unusual nose called a Bi-Spindle which can take 1/4" hex bits, 1/2" square sockets, and Centrotec bits via a special Centrotec Impact chuck:

The brochure says:

The cordless screwdrivers/impact drivers.
With the IDC and IWC, you will easily meet the toughest of challenges: large screws in steel construction, fastening anchors in concrete or drilling pilot holes in steel for blind rivets. Extra power is provided by the rotational impact mechanism. The enormous impact pulse delivers torque that could never be achieved through rotatory force alone. Switch into one of the two non-impact gears and the IDC and IWC can also be used for drilling and low-torque fastening tasks. With the CENTROTEC chuck, the machines are converted in seconds - without tools!

Full programme.
Whether you are drilling, screwdriving or impact driving in wood or steel - the concentrated power of the IDC and IWC ensures that even particularly difficult fastening tasks can be completed without any problems.

Full power.

With the impact mode engaged, the IDC and IWC generate torque previously experienced only with mains-operated impact wrenches.
Wheel nuts and screw anchors can be tightened "rock solid". Or stuck screws can be released effortlessly! In places that can't be reached by a cable.

Screwdriving without impact.
In 1st gear, the IDC and IWC generate up to 60 Nm of torque. This is suitable for inserting small and medium-sized screws, e.g. 8 x 220 mm.

Drilling without impact.
In 2nd gear, the IDC and IWC generate up to 2,500 rpm. At the same time, the two PROTOOL "power packs" develop optimised speeds for precise drilling, in wood. The small, light CENTROTEC chuck guarantees quick insertion of the drill bits and reduces the weight of the tool.

Fastening with impact.
The greatest torque output is produced by the IDC and IWC in impact mode. There's no kickback - even when working with one hand.

For those who are interested, the manual for the two impact drivers is also available

Forrest

 

[jvsteenb]

Thanks a lot, Forrest..... :-(

I recently ordered the T15+3 and the new Centrotec acessory-systainer and they're not even here yet.
I've had the chance to not only try it, but use it as well and I absolutely adored it.
The Protool impact driver was very tempting as well, but I decided for the T15+3 for a couple of reasons:
- Didn't have the chance to use the Protool
- The eccentric chuck doesn't seem to be part of the Protool offering
- It's even more expensive
- The Protool drill/driver has 4 (!) gears, where the impact has just 2.
- The impact seemed to have the quickchange/Centrotec coupling, but showed just a 1/2" square native drive.....
I kinda missed the 1/4" internal hex drive...
That's quite stupid, for I could have known it had to be there to make the Centrotec system work.
If I had been aware of this, it might have flipped the coin, and the dealer would have been even more happy.

The other thing that kinda boggled me was the form factor of the battery packs. It seems like the packs share the same technology, but not the same formfactor?
I'd like a Protool impact, but it would be a real bonus if the packs were interchangeable with the Festool range.

Ah, well..... perhaps I'll end up owning both.  Don't hold your breath though - they're not  exactly cheap tools.

Regards,

Job

 

[Brice Burrell]

Thanks Forrest. I was pretty sure I'd seen them but I wasn't aware of the Bi-Spindle, very interesting.

 

[clev1066]

Would I be safe in assuming the Protool is NAINA?

 

[James Watriss]

Yes, you would.

Sighhhhhh...

 

[justinmcf]

i would like to thank forrest for the info about the impact wrench. i have learnt more from reading your post than what i have learnt from the protool website.
the festool catalogues are fantastic, every piece of info, you could ever wish to read about festool. the festool website is adequate.
the protool catalogues are a joke. the website is only marginally better.

with regards to the protool impact wrench. the deal breaker for me is the weight. i already knew from the info on the website that the weight was 2.3 kg. the makita impact drivers weigh 1.6 kg. that is a huge weight difference hanging off your nail pouch.

there is no proper belt clip either, so i would not waste my money on it.

i use these tools, 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. i realise the normal german working week is 35.5 hours, give or take an hour. so maybe weight is not an issue. but for me, it is a deal breaker.

regards, justin.

 

[jvsteenb]

Wow, Justin...

I'm not sure if I should envy you or be sorry for you....
Being from the Netherlands and self-employed, I hardly feel limited by he average German working week,
but still I haven't yet managed to make more than 6 x 10 paying hours in a week, and that was very exceptional.
Then again, at the rate I charge I could probably make a living doing one of your weeks per month !

Pun aside, I see your point. As much as I'd like to own the Protool impact driver, it's a hefty peace of equipment.
Factoring in the weight, I actually don't see any use for a beltclip.
One of these nice bungee-thingies to hang it from a ladder might be useful, but if you really need an impact this size
on a ladder, there's a good chance you may want to consider either a scaffold or rope access anyway.

I think anything hanging from your toolbelt or stashed away in your pockets should be either featherweight or unmissable.

Slightly off-topic example:
Besides being a general contractor for maintenance and renovation work, I earn a part of my keep fooling around as an
arborist, offering treecare and -maintenance services. I own a very nice tophandle chainsaw that's just fit for climbing.
I keep it clean, sharp, running great and whatever more ways I can find to pamper it - it's one of my favourite tools.
There's a dedicated clip for it on my climbing saddle, I can find it blindfolded in any position I may be in when I need it,
running or not and start it safely up in a tree if needed. Cuts like a charm, and even if I have to use the nosewheel,
kickback is controllable. Did I mention I like it a lot ?

But I won't take it up in any tree, unless I absolutely know I need it. The Silky Sugoy saw strapped to my lower leg weighs
less then 10 percent and gets most of the jobs done. Plus I don't have to wear ( and lift ) earmuffs and a mesh screen visor.
I ALWAYS carry the Silky, and a Felco 8 pruner..

Bottom line - be it on a rope, a ladder, on a scaffold or even on the ground, either as an arborist, a carpenter,
a painter, a plumber or an electrician: I carry what I need, plus what I absolutely won't be without for the job at hand.

Back on topic:
If I thought one of these 10.8 impact tools, either Bosch or Makita would serve me well enough to justify being in my pocket
or on my belt, I would probably buy one. If Festool made a comparable tool I'd be even more tempted.

But my T15 (the one that my dealer ASSURES me will be in next monday) won't be hanging from my belt, at least not longer
then absolutely necessary.

Now maybe if I was able to get a decent set of suspenders....

I absolutely share your vision ( and frustration, if I'm right ) regarding the Protool website.
Even a Festool user manual rates better than the information provided on the Protool site - now THERE'S a statement ;-)

Their new "PROaction" web-flyer is a bit better, though I fail to understand why the ( admittedly very nice and rather
greed-inspiring ) Li-Ion drywall-screwer with detachable stripscrew nosepiece should be mentioned four(!) times.
Perhaps my browser feels obligated to screw it up as well?
If you're able to understand Dutch or just like the pictures:

http://www.festool.nl/images/Protool/acties/PROaction-aanbiedingen.pdf

It just popped up today, there's probably a translation somewhere on the web but I didn't search for it.

Regards,

Job

 

[Mac]

Really interesting post, Job. Working with trees seems a good way of earning a living.

Rick

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Thanks, Justin...

I appreciate the compliment. But I did a quick search to see if I was really the first person to have this idea.

Tom Gensmer else tried posting about it last October... but nobody responded, and the thread died. Look it up in the main message index, I dug it out of retirement and responded to it, figuring he should get credit for it. It seems to be gathering momentum now... but we'll see. Between this thread and that one, and a separate entry I put up on the wish list board, I should probably be fined for spamming.

I really want to see how big a fire I can start over this... I think it's an idea with a lot of potential, and I'm betting it would be really popular, and might add to sales of the drills, too. There are a lot of people I know who are moving towards "impact only," and they're willing to accept the limitations of the hex shank bits in exchange for the versatility of the tool. So, as long as Festool doesn't do something weird like try to make a centrotec-only impact chuck, I think an impact option would bring more people around to looking at the Festool drills. Makita tried making a drill that's a drill, hammer drill, and impact driver, but it's gotten mixed reviews, since the end result was an overpriced tool, which is a unique combination of an underpowered impact driver, and a drill that's limited by the hex shank only thing. I don't even want to think about the compromises they must have had to make to fit all those functions into one little tool. I think a fully swappable front end is a much better idea that would minimize the need to make compromises, while adding a lot of functionality and versatility to the tools we already have.

Imagine... a fully functional drill and impact driver, with a 3 year warranty? Are you kidding me?

Either way, I'm with you. I already have 3 festool drills, I'd buy at least 2 of these chucks if they came out.

It's funny, though, people seem reluctant to get on board with this idea. 42 views over on the wish list section, but no responses either way, so far. With all the threads we've had begging for impact drivers, you'd think people would want to show support for something like this, to get Festool's attention.

I haven't been active on FOG for some time but about a month ago I finally purchased a T 12 +3 drill set and have been getting familiar with it.  The accessory chucks and the fine trigger control are what justify the high price for this set compared to the Makita M12V I bought about 7 years ago which is still running fine on its original batteries (which are getting a bit weak on capacity).  I have some projects ahead that will likely need use of the angle head.  As I was thinking about what other features and options I wish this drill set had, I independently came up with the same thought -- why not a quick fix chuck adapter that included an impact drive mechanism?  Sure, the overall size of the assembly wouldn't be as compact as a single integrated unit design, but that would be no problem to me, and preferable to buying a separate impact driver.  Also, it the impact driver chuck was designed to fit on the output end of the angle drive chuck, I could definitely use that for some of my projects, too.

Dave R.

 

[Forrest Anderson]

As I was thinking about what other features and options I wish this drill set had, I independently came up with the same thought -- why not a quick fix chuck adapter that included an impact drive mechanism?  Sure, the overall size of the assembly wouldn't be as compact as a single integrated unit design, but that would be no problem to me, and preferable to buying a separate impact driver.  Also, it the impact driver chuck was designed to fit on the output end of the angle drive chuck, I could definitely use that for some of my projects, too.

Dave

On 22 Sep 2009 James posted his suggestion on a separate board - FESTOOL DISCUSSIONS > Festool Wish List - and you'll see from that discussion that Christian Oltzscher stepped in and said that Festool had looked into the idea of an impact chuck, but had sadly decided it was not feasible.

Sorry!

Forrest