Impact Drivers?

[GregBradley]

There are the low end Makita LXT impacts, which are the White one with the small battery and the Blue/Green version with the full size batteries. Those also come it kits with a drill.

Then there is the newer brushless impacts. I have the BTD144, which has 3 speeds and a battery guage. There is a new version of this that seems identical but with a model number change to go with a new series of brushless tools that Makita is working on. The low is about equal to my 12/10.8v impacts, medium equal to the lower end LXT impact, and high is WOW speed.

Between work and personal, I have a CXS and T15 drill along with about 40 other drills and drivers ranging from a 2.4v Milwaukee production electric screwdriver to a Bosch 2 1/8" Rotary Hammer. This includes about 8 Makita LXT impacts.

Anyone that thinks a Festool drill takes the place of an impact driver in construction work is clueless. Use the right tool for the job and forget about what the brand name is and if it comes in a systainer.

 

[Nigel]

Depends what you mean by construction work.

As I said ,in my experience impacts [Makita] don't drive long constructions screws anywhere near as well as their drills. I'm talking about 8mm x 300mm washerhead screws without a pilot hole. I should imagine a Festool T15 or 18 drill is as capable of driving these in as well as my old blue 18v Makita LXT ?

If you're talking about driving nuts or shorter screws that might be a different story.

 

[neth27]

I think your impact driver must of been faulty..

john...

 

[GregBradley]

I suppose the LXT driver might be faulty but perhaps something else is going on here.

We have used impacts to drive thousands of Spax 1/4" (6mm) washerhead screws in lengths of 3,4,5,6 inches into a variety of woods without a pilot hole. The normal green LXT impact works very well for that and the newer brushless works better. The Bosch 18v LI was in-between in power but not generally liked because the power was not easy to moderate. We used it for the largest work until the brushless LXT came along.

I have to believe that 8mm (5/16") without a pilot hole is pushing the limits for an impact depending on the wood you are using. Wood used in construction has to vary between US, UK, and France, right?

I would rate my T15 drill more powerful than my LXT compact driver/drill and very close to my full size LXT hammer/drill. I assume the T18 is more powerful but then Makita is releasing a new series of brushless tools soon.

The advantage of an impact for the larger screws or lag screws is that you can still drive them with one hand. Even the larger LXT dril has enough power to need the accessory handle and two hands. My 36v Bosch is never used without the second handle and two hands. The lack of kickback and ease of use one-handed is why most people prefer the impact over a drill. Noise is the disadvantage. If you are on a ladder or scoffolding or any place where work is difficult then kickback from a drill that has bound up is a bigger problem. You find people using impacts even to drill with auger bits if they have to work on a pole.

 

[Nigel]

I think your impact driver must of been faulty..

john...

I was wondering the same thing John but that would make two impacts which is a stretch.

 

[Nigel]

I suppose the LXT driver might be faulty but perhaps something else is going on here.

We have used impacts to drive thousands of Spax 1/4" (6mm) washerhead screws in lengths of 3,4,5,6 inches into a variety of woods without a pilot hole. The normal green LXT impact works very well for that and the newer brushless works better. The Bosch 18v LI was in-between in power but not generally liked because the power was not easy to moderate. We used it for the largest work until the brushless LXT came along.

I have to believe that 8mm (5/16") without a pilot hole is pushing the limits for an impact depending on the wood you are using. Wood used in construction has to vary between US, UK, and France, right?

I would rate my T15 drill more powerful than my LXT compact driver/drill and very close to my full size LXT hammer/drill. I assume the T18 is more powerful but then Makita is releasing a new series of brushless tools soon.

The advantage of an impact for the larger screws or lag screws is that you can still drive them with one hand. Even the larger LXT dril has enough power to need the accessory handle and two hands. My 36v Bosch is never used without the second handle and two hands. The lack of kickback and ease of use one-handed is why most people prefer the impact over a drill. Noise is the disadvantage. If you are on a ladder or scoffolding or any place where work is difficult then kickback from a drill that has bound up is a bigger problem. You find people using impacts even to drill with auger bits if they have to work on a pole.

I agree with everything you say Greg and I use my impact for general screw driving for all the reasons you have stated, however the type of construction screws I mean are designed to be used without a pilot hole and go up to 12 x 520mm ? A little optimistic at this sort of size perhaps but certainly feasible at 8 x 300mm in pine and without splitting but obviously at some point you may have to drill a pilot hole.

I would say that definitely from 8mm x 150mm on the [my] impact is likely to stop before the screw is entirely at full depth whereas the drill will keep going but like you say a lot depends on the density of the wood and the diameter of the screw. In any case if you think about it the impact will stop before the drill due to the clutch right?

Maybe I'm just expecting too much.

The drill I have is the 3 speed 18v LXT.  It takes a lot to stop it in first gear. Probably the only thing would be a faded battery.

 

[Laminator]

Just a comment on the 3 speed makita.  I had one (until high gear stripped out one month after the 3 year warranty ) and it was dangerously strong in low gear! 
I never seem to drive anything bigger than 3" x #8 and would never use a drill for this as it is so effortless with the impact.  I wear ear plugs all the time so the noise is not a problem with the impact.

 

[fdengel]

There is another advantage to impact drivers besides just "big screws" and "tough materials".

I had to take something apart that had been made damp.  Using a regular drill (Festool) to remove the screws, the screws would either break inside the thing or the heads would strip.

I switched to an impact driver, pulled them right out -- no more broken screws, no more stripped heads.

For all the extra power they have, they also somehow manage to avoid breaking fragile/damanged screws while removing them, and they don't strip the heads as readily.

 

[Nigel]

I just did a little video test which illustrates the point I was trying to make. The screw is an 8 x 300mm washerhead. The materal is Oak/pine/Oak/pine. Just pine and the impact was OK on a full battery but on hitting a knot it stopped! The clip shows a hard test for any drill/impact and you can see I use the same battery when I change from impact to drill - you can see the difference is pretty clear. All I want to say is that large fixings don't necessarily drive easier with an impact driver.

Makita drill versus impact.wmv

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Nigel,

I used to have the Makita BTD140 and it had more power than that.  If you weren't so far away, I'd be able to help you better than just telling you that.  I have a Milwaukee impact driver that's even more powerful.  Maybe Dave will help me shoot a quick video using it to compare to what you're experiencing to show that impacts do work well even with the big screws.
Too bad I don't have the Makita any longer, because a video with that would be more beneficial to you.

 

[Nigel]

Thanks Ken

Yeah I'd really like to see that. Maybe I've just had two duds  [crying]

Having said that it has no problem driving 'normal' screws and I always use it for screwdriving 95 % of the time.

 

[neth27]

I will have to give it a try, i have a 22v drill and a 22v impact driver. I will try to get hold of a couple of 300mm screws and compare them. I would of thought the impact driver would easily win.... when i have used concrete screws the drill has nearly snapped  my wrist a few times  [big grin] but the impact driver has been like putting a 2" screw in....

john..

 

[jmbfestool]

I will have to give it a try, i have a 22v drill and a 22v impact driver. I will try to get hold of a couple of 300mm screws and compare them. I would of thought the impact driver would easily win.... when i have used concrete screws the drill has nearly snapped  my wrist a few times  [big grin] but the impact driver has been like putting a 2" screw in....

john..

In most cases you will find the Impact will LOOSE    a driver of equal power will always beat an impact driver! 

Impact are nice for driving in a lot of screws  because it requires less pressure to make sure the bit stays in.  If you push it to its limits you then have to change to a driver OR drill pilot holes to make it easier.

Where a Impact will win over a driver is things like tightening bolts etc A driver will not do it as tight or drive the bolt in as easily.

JMB

 

[Nigel]

In most cases you will find the Impact will LOOSE    a driver of equal power will always beat an impact driver!   

Impact are nice for driving in a lot of screws  because it requires less pressure to make sure the bit stays in.  If you push it to its limits you then have to change to a driver OR drill pilot holes to make it easier.

Where a Impact will win over a driver is things like tightening bolts etc A driver will not do it as tight or drive the bolt in as easily.

JMB

I totally agree!

 

[GhostFist]

Always found that impacts are really only good for lags and bolts. Drives me nuts the rattle people make for 1 1/2 screws in pine at work. I use my cxs for that.....it's almost silent. [big grin]

 

[Kevin Stricker]

Nigel, your impact driver is broken, I have seen the same thing with a friends Makita.  My 14.4 Panasonic could have driven two of those in the time it took your drill to sink one. 

With the comment on impacts vs drills for short screws, I do some commercial remodels where we will hang 3-4 bunks of slat wall in a couple days.  While you could do it with a traditional drill, your arm would be dead.  I can easily outpace the guys using drills, as in hang an extra sheet or two an hour outpace.  Combine the speed advantage with the reduction in user fatigue with the ability to sink screws above my head consistently and it's a no brainier.  The head carpenter who has been working those jobs for years bought himself a 20v Dewalt for Christmas after seeing the difference. He was smiling a lot more than usual on the last store we did and his elbow brace stayed off for the whole remodel.

 

[GhostFist]

cxs is lighter though not as fast. my t15 is an equivalent weight and size to a standard impact. I know I go on and on about the impact thing, I apologize for the annoyance  [big grin]

 

[jmbfestool]

I thought I would just demonstrate one of the MAIN benefits to IMPACT drivers.

I read to many people saying dont see to point in them they are to noisy  and that their normal driver does the job just as well!

Well this video demonstrates the power transfer from drill the wrist/hand

I used tanalised 100x100m timber 2.4 meters long its really wet so does have some weight to it!

This test shows you how an impact takes the strain away from driving a large screw in!

I didnt clamp or fix the timber down so you can see how much force if I had clamped the timber down would normally be transferred to your hands/wrists arms.

The force is SO great it actually spins the 2.4m 100x100 like it was just a small piece of timber.

Impact VS Driver

JMB

 

[jmbfestool]

lol  when using the Festool drill kinda looks like I dont know how to use a drill lol!

but I was trying not to grab the wood  and I couldnt put to much pressure on the screw because the wood would slide away from me! I should of put a stop on the end really but I wanted the wood to be as free as possible to really demonstrate the power transfer difference between driver and impact!

and as you can see clearly the impact takes the strain away COMPLETELY!   The wood doesn't even try to spin and I am hardly holding the impact drill and its driving the 400mm screw in just as quick.

The festool driver was twisting my wrist AND wood! If I had fixed the wood I would of just had more strain on my side.

JMB

 

[Nigel]

Nigel, your impact driver is broken, I have seen the same thing with a friends Makita.  My 14.4 Panasonic could have driven two of those in the time it took your drill to sink one. 

With the comment on impacts vs drills for short screws, I do some commercial remodels where we will hang 3-4 bunks of slat wall in a couple days.  While you could do it with a traditional drill, your arm would be dead.  I can easily outpace the guys using drills, as in hang an extra sheet or two an hour outpace.  Combine the speed advantage with the reduction in user fatigue with the ability to sink screws above my head consistently and it's a no brainier.  The head carpenter who has been working those jobs for years bought himself a 20v Dewalt for Christmas after seeing the difference. He was smiling a lot more than usual on the last store we did and his elbow brace stayed off for the whole remodel.

Kevin,well it might be but as it does 95% of my screw driving with no problem maybe it's only 5% broken! [wink]. Your Panasonic sounds pretty impressive.

In general there's no contest and the impact wins as JMB's video shows - overhead,upside down,inside out is so much easier with an impact if you can put up with the noise.

I still suspect though that if you take an impact to the limit the driver will be able to take over.Be interesting to do some kind of test. Anyone out there got loads of impacts and the equivalent drills?