Imperial vs Metric in My Situation

[Cheese]

I'm old enough that I had to use a slide rule (same kind that took us to the moon ) in high school math and science. 

[member=25351]rst[/member]
I still have mine...does this photo bring back some memories?

 

[rst]

A more pertinent question would be "can you still work it?"....NOOOO but I have a phone that does even more. [big grin]  I don't have my slide rule but I still have a functioning IBM computer bought before sale to the general public...my watch does more and quicker.  My wife has been involved in transcription for 42 years at Geisinger Medical Center.  Geisinger was one of the hospitals recognized as a leader in the medical record world for having advanced systems by the Obama administration. Her department used IBM Selectric typewriters and another companies workstations that were actually computers with dedicated programs in the late 70's and early eighties.  We bought an IBM PC before they were generally for sale...certainly do not miss those floppy discs and having to pracically program your tasks.  Hooray for inovation [big grin]

 

[Patrick Cox]

[member=61142]Patrick Cox[/member], I hope you don't mind the diversions in this thread.  Personally I try to use the metric system when I am in my shop creating something from scratch.  When you start using more and more Festools and their accessories - many of which have a scale in metric on them - then it might make more sense.

When I am outside the shop in people's homes I rarely use metric.

Peter

No worries Peter and thanks for your post.  I have decided that I will likely use both for awhile and then see if my experience leads me in one direction or the other.  I did buy the Fastcap tape measure that shows both systems and I will try to do so on other measuring devices as well.

Thanks for everyone's comments!

 

[GhostFist]

i think everyone will agree, that if you start a project in one system, you stick with that system for the duration of the project. For instance, if you are working with a metric drawing, the whole project should be metric, and vice versa. I have metric tapes and rulers as well as imperial, but they each exclusive to one system. I don't like having both systems on one tape as i find it can lead to confusion.

 

[Mort]

A common theme I've seen in posts here is "public outcry" on switching. The public doesn't want it. The scientific and engineering communities want to, but they are a vast minority. But they are an educated elite, so the government tends to believe what they say more than the great unwashed.

It's hard for our friends on the other side of either pond to grasp but Americans don't like to fall in line simply because everyone else is doing something. Imperial works fine for the vast majority of us. Farmers, auto mechanics, welders, and construction workers don't have to convert units for overseas customers. And they are the majority of people in this country.

The takeaway is you go right ahead with metric if it suits you. Just don't expect your lumber yard to sell 2440x1220x18mm plywood because everyone else wants 4x8x3/4". You will have to convert.

 

[Patrick Cox]

i think everyone will agree, that if you start a project in one system, you stick with that system for the duration of the project. For instance, if you are working with a metric drawing, the whole project should be metric, and vice versa. I have metric tapes and rulers as well as imperial, but they each exclusive to one system. I don't like having both systems on one tape as i find it can lead to confusion.

That all makes sense. My main reason for a tape with both is to get a feel for metric.

 

[grbmds]

[member=61142]Patrick Cox[/member], I hope you don't mind the diversions in this thread.  Personally I try to use the metric system when I am in my shop creating something from scratch.  When you start using more and more Festools and their accessories - many of which have a scale in metric on them - then it might make more sense.

When I am outside the shop in people's homes I rarely use metric.

Peter

No worries Peter and thanks for your post.  I have decided that I will likely use both for awhile and then see if my experience leads me in one direction or the other.  I did buy the Fastcap tape measure that shows both systems and I will try to do so on other measuring devices as well.

Thanks for everyone's comments!

[member=61142]Patrick Cox[/member] I have the Flatback Tape with both on and I do feel it's helpful. I have not made the transition to metric as I've been using the other in woodworking for 40 years. However, sometimes, it definitely is easier to use metric. It's not something I would convert to completely at this point in my life, but definitely is useful sometimes.

 

[GhostFist]

Understood . A lot of people use these tapes obviously as they continue to sell them, for me it's one or the other as I find the system your not using gets in the way of the one you are

 

[Rick Christopherson]

A common theme I've seen in posts here is "public outcry" on switching. The public doesn't want it. The scientific and engineering communities want to, but they are a vast minority. But they are an educated elite, so the government tends to believe what they say more than the great unwashed.

It's hard for our friends on the other side of either pond to grasp but Americans don't like to fall in line simply because everyone else is doing something. Imperial works fine for the vast majority of us. Farmers, auto mechanics, welders, and construction workers don't have to convert units for overseas customers. And they are the majority of people in this country.

The takeaway is you go right ahead with metric if it suits you. Just don't expect your lumber yard to sell 2440x1220x18mm plywood because everyone else wants 4x8x3/4". You will have to convert.

Yes. This is the thing that gets so frequently overlooked in these discussions. The majority of all people will not experience any significant benefit in switching to metric. Furthermore, most people will actually see some detriment to it. For example, the Celsius temperature scale is coarser than the Fahrenheit scale by a factor of 5/8ths. And millimeters result in some very large numbers.

Unit conversion is touted as the great benefit of metric, yet you should never, ever mix metric units in the same information. For the majority of small-scale work that woodworkers do, this means millimeters. Mixing centimeters and millimeters is incredibly taboo. So that generally means working with very large numbers.

For those that would experience benefit, namely the scientific community, they don't need to be told to use metric--they just use it.

As an engineer, I default to designing in decimal inches to the thousandths of an inch (0.001). But with the click of a mouse button, I can switch to metric, or even dual dimensions for both. But what will really screw me up is when someone produces a drawing in centimeters, because that is a non-standard engineering unit of measure.

 

[Kev]

Siri need to be able to deal with ... add together 1' 11-3/4" and 1-7/16" and 1/2", then subtract 2 times 5/16" [big grin]

Then we'll all be sweet.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Siri need to be able to deal with ... add together 1' 11-3/4" and 1-7/16" and 1/2", then subtract 2 times 5/16" [big grin]

Then we'll all be sweet.

At first blush, that would seem to be a great point. Except fractions aren't part of the imperial system of measure. That's a chosen division, but not part of the system. It's a choice that many people like, but not required. If you don't like the 16th divisions, you can just as easily buy your tape measures in 1/10 divisions.

Once you step away from the indoctrination of the 1970's you realize it is all just numbers. The benefits to the average non-scientific person are next to nothing. (and I say that as a scientific person, myself).

 

[GhostFist]

Siri need to be able to deal with ... add together 1' 11-3/4" and 1-7/16" and 1/2", then subtract 2 times 5/16" [big grin]

Then we'll all be sweet.

At first blush, that would seem to be a great point. Except fractions aren't part of the imperial system of measure. That's a chosen division, but not part of the system. It's a choice that many people like, but not required. If you don't like the 16th divisions, you can just as easily buy your tape measures in 1/10 divisions.

Once you step away from the indoctrination of the 1970's you realize it is all just numbers. The benefits to the average non-scientific person are next to nothing. (and I say that as a scientific person, myself).

Exactly

 

[Kev]

Siri need to be able to deal with ... add together 1' 11-3/4" and 1-7/16" and 1/2", then subtract 2 times 5/16" [big grin]

Then we'll all be sweet.

At first blush, that would seem to be a great point. Except fractions aren't part of the imperial system of measure. That's a chosen division, but not part of the system. It's a choice that many people like, but not required. If you don't like the 16th divisions, you can just as easily buy your tape measures in 1/10 divisions.

Once you step away from the indoctrination of the 1970's you realize it is all just numbers. The benefits to the average non-scientific person are next to nothing. (and I say that as a scientific person, myself).

Exactly

The cool and well thought out aspect of the metric system is the way weight and volume are integrated so that a cubic metre contains a kilo litre in volume and if this was 1000 litres of water at STP, it would weigh 1 metric ton (1000 kilograms).

I'll obviously agree that we're just talking numbers and most fractions for measurement are based on halving or on tenths and thousandths, but you still occasionally see twelfths and twenty-fourths. As with all things, it depends on what was happening when the measurement method evolved.

Half a century ago in school I remember we had an exercise where we all had to make a ruler and the teacher gave us different fractions to use as inch divisions ... I got sevenths [sad]

 

[Rick Christopherson]

The cool and well thought out aspect of the metric system is the way weight and volume are integrated so that a cubic metre contains a kilo litre in volume and if this was 1000 litres of water at STP, it would weigh 1 metric ton (1000 kilograms).

Yes, and this is exactly why the scientific community prefers metric. But the reality of metric is that the average person will never need to make such transformations. It is that realization that prevented it from taking stronger root in the U.S.

 

[Holmz]

The cool and well thought out aspect of the metric system is the way weight and volume are integrated so that a cubic metre contains a kilo litre in volume and if this was 1000 litres of water at STP, it would weigh 1 metric ton (1000 kilograms).

Yes, and this is exactly why the scientific community prefers metric. But the reality of metric is that the average person will never need to make such transformations. It is that realization that prevented it from taking stronger root in the U.S.

Or our standards for "average person" have dropped.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Or our standards for "average person" have dropped.

OK, so do you have a common example where the average person needs to convert volumetric measurements to fluid units in their day to day lives? Is that something that crosses their mind as they are making the morning coffee in their bathrobe?  [unsure]

[big grin] [big grin]

 

[Cheese]

Half a century ago in school I remember we had an exercise where we all had to make a ruler and the teacher gave us different fractions to use as inch divisions ... I got sevenths [sad]

Wow...that says it all, a half a century ago!
50 years i can deal with...a half a century?...that has to be before my time...right?

 

[Holmz]

Or our standards for "average person" have dropped.

OK, so do you have a common example where the average person needs to convert volumetric measurements to fluid units in their day to day lives? Is that something that crosses their mind as they are making the morning coffee in their bathrobe?  [unsure]

[big grin] [big grin]

The haus-boss was in the garden, and the instructions call for 2-cm of top soil.
So knowing the planter size, does the jepardy definition of ' what is a "$hit load" '

Anything with a car... 2 litre engine at 7200. RPM, what is the CFM?

A cup is ~250ml.

Watts =volts * amps

Now that we can google it, do people learn it if they need it?
In past people seemed to learned stuff to know it.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Or our standards for "average person" have dropped.

OK, so do you have a common example where the average person needs to convert volumetric measurements to fluid units in their day to day lives? Is that something that crosses their mind as they are making the morning coffee in their bathrobe?  [unsure]

[big grin] [big grin]

The haus-boss was in the garden, and the instructions call for 2-cm of top soil.
So knowing the planter size, does the jepardy definition of ' what is a " stuff load" '
But there is no conversion here. Calculating volume is the same no matter which system you use. You are not converting from volumetric to fluid units. However, if you were thinking of converting your centimeter measurements to a cubic meter equivalent, how many people would actually know that there are 1-million CC's per M3? Without looking it up, how many liters are there in a cubic meter?  [big grin]

P.S. Do you think you would do the math correctly if you took your 2cm depth and multiplied it by a garden of 3-meters by 10-meters? You can't change units mid-stream. You've got to stick to one unit, no matter which system you use.

Anything with a car... 2 litre engine at 7200. RPM, what is the CFM?
Ummm, when's the last time the average person needed to know the airflow rate into their engine?  [tongue] But yes, absolutely, this is actually the first example that popped into my head because I do engineering designs for the automotive aftermarket industry. But the average vehicle owner never needs to do this.

A cup is ~250ml.
So? You made a conversion, but why did you need to?

Watts =volts * amps
Oops! Watts, volts, and Amps are the same in both systems. But even still, is this something the average person ever needs to calculate? Horsepower to Watts would be a good example, but still, it isn't something the average person needs to do.

Now that we can google it, do people learn it if they need it?
In past people seemed to learned stuff to know it.

My original question was whether you could come up with legitimate examples of where the average person needed to convert from volumetric measurements (e.g. cu.in., cu.ft., cc, M3, etc.) to fluid units (gal, liter, etc.).

Yes, absolutely, I've had to do this many times throughout my career. But the average person never needs to do these things.

Make no mistake. I'm an engineer. I don't oppose the metric system. But the reality is that the average person won't experience any of the benefits in their daily life. If you're not making conversions or performing calculations, it is just different numbers.

 

[Holmz]

I guess it depends on what one does. There are a whole bunch or engine tuners, which at first blush may appear as grease monkeys, but upon closer inspection use a great deal of math.

There are also a large number of electricians, and every DIY doing electrical need to have some grasp of electrical theory, which is all metric as you pointed out.

the cooking is one place where imperial recipes may need to be converted.

It is trivial to go to 1000 litres per M^3...

Bottom line is that math is the language of science, and being illiterate in units and maths, does not make us strong in science. Knowing this stuff will not help with woodworking design. And mixing units will not usually aid in execution of the practice. But it may make it easier to get things done if one has M6 screws and they need to select between a 1/4" and 5/16 drill.

We could probably both agrue this from either perspective and have a cogent argument.
It is generally depressing.