incredibly underwhelmed by my MFT/3

[pdinapoli]

bought a new to me MFT/3 table(previous owner used for 1 project - sat unused so I bought from craigslist)

Just bought my first Festool tracksaw - TS60 - which is amazing and I'm loving that.

But - the MFT/3 squaring process is simply defeating me.  i'm chasing out of square cuts around the corners - turning lumber into sawdust and getting progressively more deflated and feeling like this was a mistake purchase.

I can set the back fence square to the dogs....lock everything down - then square the rail up to that.  all good.

life the guide rail - make a single test cut in some scrap material - drop the guide rail back down into place and re-check...i'm out a degree or more...

I've literally loosened everything - started over and gone through the squaring process 5 or 6 times now... i'm sorta running out of confidence that this was a good purchase.

The TS60 is amazing...but the MFT hardware seems to be kinda janky for the price.  could very well be me and my process / learning curve...but for the love of god it shouldnt be this challenging to get it all squared up.  clearly I'm doing something wrong...or this equipment is not really all it's cracked up to be?

I have a super fancy / expensive woodpeckers MFT setup kit on the way - i'm really hoping that helps get me to the finish line...but it doesn't arrive until next week.

2 photos attached - before test cut / after test cut.

 

[rmwarren]

You are using 20mm dogs to square everything?

A potential source of problems is the little tab on the front bracket that fits in the guide rail slot. Is that snug or do you get any side to side movement?

RMW

 

[pdinapoli]

Thanks for the reply RMW!

yes to the tab at the front rail - I have set/reset/readjusted/reset that front rail side-to-side movement many times.

yes to the 20mm dogs... but given that..i'm a little surprised to learn that festool bores these holes slightly over - way more slop than I would have expected for such high dollar/well regarded tools.  i do have some UJK dogs on the way - i've been told those are precision machined to fit very snug in our mft tops... those are on the way too.

but check out these next pics...i can get the rail square to the back fence...but sighting down the line - clearly the rail and the dog holes are nowhere near in line.

i think i'm going to give it another full tear down / rebuild... including the MFT top itself.  it looks to me like it's not sitting flush against the aluminum extrusion that is the table base itself - so i'm kinda chasing my tail and feeling defeated.

i'm not a great carpenter and have been really excited to finally afford tools that will level up my skills...but the panels i just cut up for test cuts are waaaay out of square and i'm feeling crappy about it all right now.

:-(

 

[festal]

Take a look at Sedge's videos, Jason Bent's videos and festool videos on mft setup.  I think Sedge either on his channel, or on festool live went over a process on how to square MFT.

If you want to throw money at the problem, you have few options.  TSO makes improved mft3 parts and dashboard makes replacement brackets.  both work much better then mft3 original parts

 

[pixelated]

Festools's procedure is to square the fence to the rail. The dogs don't come into play in that.

It's been discussed in here quite a lot, but Festool doesn't make any assurance that the dog holes are precisely square to each other, nor is the table surface necessarily square to the aprons where the rail and the fence are supported.

That said, the dog holes are known to be pretty accurate and an alternate method of using the kit is to use tall dogs to locate the rail and shorter dogs at a right angle to act as a fence for the work. There are lots of variations on that recipe, and some folks find it easier to work that way than using the rail hinge, etc.

To complicate things, the rail does have a lot of play at the pin on the front clamp, there is an after market gadget that fits in the rail channel to eliminate the play, which helps with repeatability if you want to use the stock rail hinge and front support.

 

[pdinapoli]

yeah - i've watched all those vids multiple times... the funny thing is they don't get too deep into troubleshooting if their process doesn't work right out of the box.

i think i'm closer... resetting the whole mft top - i think was the right move.  making some test cuts and will report back.

I am coveting the dashboard hinge kit.. and the benchdog fence.

I dont really need that giant protractor the mft comes with...and a dead nuts reliable fence that i can drop in / take out - seems tempting.

seems like the stock kit has too many different places where things can get off just a little bit...and i've simply been going in circles (not square)

 

[Michael Kellough]

Forget the holes, they’re made for clamps not dogs.
They’re neither perfectly square to one another or perfectly sized to fit dogs.

If you want to drive yourself crazy you can continue to pursue aligning everything with the holes.
Some people claim to have successfully done that but I wouldn’t bother.

Leave the rail where it is and adjust the fence to be square to the rail.

Where it gets tricky is is after you make the pair square and then you want to cut something thicker, you have to adjust the fence again.
And if the rail is higher than your square is tall, it gets very difficult.

Also, you can’t depend on a digital square that has a resolution of 1/10th of a degree.
Over the length of the rail on the MFT an error of .01* will make the fence out of square by about 1/32”.

You are right to address the poison the mdf slab. It can move. It might move any time the MFT is moved or folded down. I’d tuck it into the far right corner but the fact that it can move is another reason not to depend on the holes.

 

[pdinapoli]

thanks all for good suggestions.  i guess I just needed to pay my dues and run this gauntlet. 

I followed the sedge, the bents, the stanton, etc...

I think the right move was to reset the top to the base frame - establish the fence as a straight edge to the dog holes - gotta start somewhere.

Then square the rail to that.

what also helped was to clamp down the fence - before tightening down that black knob that is supposed to aide with deflection.  i could watch the fence move as i locked that down to the end of the table.  LAME!!!

SUCCESS!!

thanks for the tips and encouragement.

this vid really helped=547s

 

[Mortiser]

I got rid of the protractor and bought the MFT fence and (2) fence dogs from Benchdogs.com. I square the track to the fence. Although this fence is mounted in dog holes (giving me more depth on the table), forget the holes and square your track to the fence. You should get a large square (the TSO Triangle is a good one) and check for square after each time you change the height of the guide rail mounting brackets.
I do what they say you shouldn't do and set the back mounting bracket, putting some tension on my end of the rail, springing it against the left side of the tab. I'm cutting while standing slightly to the left of the guide rail so when I push the saw I'm likely putting some slight sideways pressure on the rail toward my right. That pushes the rail against the left side of the tab, compatible with the way my rail meets the tab when I lower it. This way I eliminate the slop between the mounting bracket tab and the guide rail. Or you can just buy the "Slop Stop" on eBay. Either way I'd suggest you check the square between fence and rail each time you adjust your mounting brackets height for stock thickness.
Since taking these steps, I've been very pleased with the results.
Good luck with your new saw and MFT. I think in time you'll come to enjoy both.

 

[HighlandMarine]

yeah - i've watched all those vids multiple times... the funny thing is they don't get too deep into troubleshooting if their process doesn't work right out of the box.

i think i'm closer... resetting the whole mft top - i think was the right move.  making some test cuts and will report back.

I am coveting the dashboard hinge kit.. and the benchdog fence.

I dont really need that giant protractor the mft comes with...and a dead nuts reliable fence that i can drop in / take out - seems tempting.

seems like the stock kit has too many different places where things can get off just a little bit...and i've simply been going in circles (not square)

Dashboard makes good gear, super pleased with the entire PWS system.

 

[Sparktrician]

You might want to try my squaring process -https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-problems/mft-squaring-problems/msg537032/#msg537032.  [smile]

 

[dashboardpws]

yeah - i've watched all those vids multiple times... the funny thing is they don't get too deep into troubleshooting if their process doesn't work right out of the box.

i think i'm closer... resetting the whole mft top - i think was the right move.  making some test cuts and will report back.

I am coveting the dashboard hinge kit.. and the benchdog fence.

I dont really need that giant protractor the mft comes with...and a dead nuts reliable fence that i can drop in / take out - seems tempting.

seems like the stock kit has too many different places where things can get off just a little bit...and i've simply been going in circles (not square)

Dashboard makes good gear, super pleased with the entire PWS system.

Thank you. We were born out of the characteristic frustration with this problem.

 

[sancho57]

little late to the party. I learned this from Allan Kensley. Once yuo square your MFT and move the rail up or down, the hinges the rail sets on will move. You need to push the hinges against the stops everytime you raise of lower the guide rail. You wont find that bit of info in any of the FT videos on you tube. TSO makes a hinge plate mod thats easy to install that solves that issue.

Note: The dog holes are not necessarily set at 90 degrees to the rail. They are CNC mahines to be 90 degrees from each other. If you want to make the dog holes 90 degrees to to rail then youll need to get some dogs, a precision square use the dogs to align the rail at 90 degrees to the rail by loosening the factory stops and adjust the hinges.

The Woodgraft on his You Tube site shows his method of doing it. Hes the only one Im aware of that has a how to video on doing that. I also suggest getting a saw slop. It fits in the groove of rail where the hinge plate sets and stops the movement there .
A metal one comes with the TSO hinge mod kit. Which I suggest you getting one.

hope this helps. BTW you might want to invest in a precision square. TSO and Woodpeckers both make great ones that will make your life easier.

Oh never mind looks like you figured it out.

 

[mino]

thanks all for good suggestions.  i guess I just needed to pay my dues and run this gauntlet. 

I followed the sedge, the bents, the stanton, etc...
...

Not want to restart anything, but I would not trust my yesterday beer to that digital "angle square" you shown.

As some mentioned, get some proper square that is actually, well, square. Not just pretending to be.
The problem with these cheap "digital" squares is that that MAY be right once in a while, creating a wrong imnpression. But be off 0.01˚ the next time, causing all kinds of random issues from reporting suare cut as non-square (more likely) to reporting a crooked one as square (still possible). You want at least one known-good square that you can rely on in the shop. That digital one is not it.

Some good US options were mentioned from the TSO or Woodpeckers already. If you were in Europe, then a simple DIN class 1 engineer´s square will be cheaper and even more precise.

By cheap, I am talking "under $500 cheap". Precise digital adjustable squares are very difficult to make and so most precision makers either do nor make them OR sell for a LOT of money. Hell, I have not seen a precise one in my life. The economy just does not make sense for a normal shop compared to a DIN class 1 fixed square for $50 over here. In US some MTR-X fancy one is not so bad either compared what a comprable accuracy adjustable one would fetch.

 

[PaulMarcel]

Like [member=61254]mino[/member] said, digital squares aren't the best. I bought one when I got started. "Excellent! It shows down to the hundredth of a degree!! woo!" flipped it over... ±0.2º so what's the hundredth digit there for? Oh, marketing, and I fell for it. I donated it to a friend starting out after explaining the reason.

The dog holes are effectively square to each other. At least I have yet to see a discrepancy and I've tested them repeatedly (as in any time someone says they aren't cuz CNCs have a wobble mode apparently).

Get your fence parallel to the last row of dogs and set your fence to the dogs and it is super easy and fast to recalibrate. I have 2 MDF sticks under my table for that function.

As for slop in the guide rail bracket: I know there is slop so I've set my fence square while pushing the guiderail toward the off-cut side so it registers on the pin the same way I'll push with a saw. Whenever I have a big chunk of scrap I can crosscut, I'll do so on the MFT and verify it is square. Have yet to be disappointed.

 

[Birdhunter]

My protractor has never been used. My fence hangs on the wall next to the protractor. Both are dusty. That stuff is a source for error at best.

I put 2 dogs in holes parallel to the back side of the MFT.  I butt my Woodpeckers framing square against the 2 back side dogs and align the saw track to the square. I have installed a SlopStop that eliminates any side to side track movement.

I butt the wood against the 2 back side dogs, drop the track, and cut. I get perfect 90 degree or 45 degree cuts every time.

I have several brands of dogs and they all fit very snugly.

 

[Birdhunter]

I forgot to mention that Dash-Board makes an awesome track system to replace the stock fence/hinge. It is heavy duty stuff!

It won’t help loose dog holes, but it is a rock steady track system.

 

[darita]

I feel your pain, but don't give up on the table.  I ditched my Festool hinge, etc. a while ago due to inaccuracy issues and dove into after market parts like the DashBoard Hinge and other parts.  The loose dogs drove me nuts, so I got some UJK Expanding Dogs which are fantastic and solved that issue.  All these parts aren't cheap, but they really made using my MFT more accurate and consistent.  A good tip I picked up from DashBoard was to pull the table top hard against the closest rail to you so that anything attached to that rail will be as parallel and square to the dog holes as possible.  Welcome to the rabbit hole and be sure to enjoy the journey.

 

[ScotF]

I think the biggest thing for me in squaring is to not overnighten the two allen screws on the underside of the top rail bracket...it is very easy to skew the rail overtightening them. When done correctly, the rail will on the front rail and the tab hits right in the center of the rail.

Second, the end stop should not be tightened to the MFT rail until after you square the protracter to the guide rail. I attach it to fence, but do not tighten the lever until after I have squared the protracter - which you can loosen the Allen bolts on the top of the head to swing the fence either direction to be 90 degrees to the rail. Tighten and then tighten the end stop.

Hope this helps. FWIW...I can get perfect 90 degrees with a 5-cut method on my MFT and it has been repeatable over several set-ups and breakdowns for storage for me.

 

[mkasdin]

Woodpecker makes a phenolic tri-square that makes squaring up the cut very easy. Also TSO makes something similar, it makes squaring easy.  You could also make something yourself out of MDF or a large scrape by cutting a square corner, then slicing off the far corner end. You just need a clean 90 degree on one corner. It’s not that hard to calibrate it?

bought a new to me MFT/3 table(previous owner used for 1 project - sat unused so I bought from craigslist)

Just bought my first Festool tracksaw - TS60 - which is amazing and I'm loving that.

But - the MFT/3 squaring process is simply defeating me.  i'm chasing out of square cuts around the corners - turning lumber into sawdust and getting progressively more deflated and feeling like this was a mistake purchase.

I can set the back fence square to the dogs....lock everything down - then square the rail up to that.  all good.

life the guide rail - make a single test cut in some scrap material - drop the guide rail back down into place and re-check...i'm out a degree or more...

I've literally loosened everything - started over and gone through the squaring process 5 or 6 times now... i'm sorta running out of confidence that this was a good purchase.

The TS60 is amazing...but the MFT hardware seems to be kinda janky for the price.  could very well be me and my process / learning curve...but for the love of god it shouldnt be this challenging to get it all squared up.  clearly I'm doing something wrong...or this equipment is not really all it's cracked up to be?

I have a super fancy / expensive woodpeckers MFT setup kit on the way - i'm really hoping that helps get me to the finish line...but it doesn't arrive until next week.

2 photos attached - before test cut / after test cut.