Input on a potential purchase of a Dust Extractor (Processors) Questions?

[Mini Me]

It is a harsh thing to say but apart from a select few and this video is not one of those all the DE information on YT should be ignored. This example is full of don't do's and should not be used a good example of DE. I dislike criticising stuff on forums because inevitably those who give bad advice shout loudest. My response is to point out their health outcomes are their decision and I don't debate at all.

The recipe for a home workshop is simple, 150mm duct,  150 ports on the machine and a 15" impeller on a long cone cyclone and that Oneida is not long cone. Never select a DE on quoted power figures or quoted flow figures and use minimum flex because that kills air flow quicker than anything else. Also as I mentioned above I would buy a single phase DE because three phase removes a host of problems single phase units have. I used to sell Clearvue Cyclones but stopped doing that many years ago due to retirement but we have recently developed a very simple automatic blast gate with sales confined to Australia and NZ for the foreseeable future  and I am now involved in a large dust extraction education program because no one else has taken the time and effort to do it. 

 

[JonnyBBravo]

So at the current moment I’m looking at just purchasing a Oneida V3000. Seems to be the best bang for the buck regards to CFM, quietness and versatility of future tool upgrades or possibilities.

The only cooperative differences between the Oneida models are as follows.

Gorilla Pro: Baldor VFD motor, 300 more cfm, slightly louder. Metal cyclone more noise.
V3000: Leeson Motor, quieter mainly due to the resin molded cyclone.

Some key things that have been brought to my attention by independent sources and fellow wood workers are that flappers will wear and tear the materials of the filter pleeting. The Supercell seems like a great tool but only a 468 CFM would not be good for flexibility of any upgrades or overall dust collection given the specs. An also pointed out by many is sound reason of current cost of the machine. That no matter what it’s going to cost but In the long run choosing Oneida was said by many to be a sound decision as it’s what they do and are well known for. No different than buying a laguna bandsaw because they are known for being one of the better options to purchase. 

There’s just one thing I’m awaiting a response on from someone who’s bought a V3000 that if they wished they went to the gorilla pro instead. That’s really the only thing I’m waiting on or possibly waiting for pricing to flatten out given the raised costs etc. but seems like it’s gonna be around for the long haul.

 

[Peter_C]

One other difference between them is the HEPA filter. 95sf for the V3000, and 110sf for the Gorilla both the 3 and 5hp. The filter I bought from Oneida was the Gorilla 110sf which is $419 currently. The V3000 is designed for and runs on the smaller filter, but...does the air flow decrease faster from plugging?

With a thousand dollar difference between them, it is more of a question of what your future needs will be vs cost. Looking at the specs I would get the Gorilla. Stammering at the cost, I would go to Harbor Freight and buy the $200 dust bag collector errr...dust spreader (I bought a Jet due to cost  [tongue] )

The cyclone on my Jet is steel, and in the future I may consider putting some sound dampening material like Dynamat to make it quieter. I did buy the Oneida sound damper that slips in the filter, and will ad carpet to the plenum. The ones you are looking at already come with sound dampening installed inside the filter area.

Oneida doesn't use flappers, instead they recommend blowing out the filter with compressed air regulated down, while filter is installed to knock the dust out. I am good with using air myself.

 

[JonnyBBravo]

[member=62526]Peter C[/member] thanks for the response. I agree with the air. Using something to rub against a filter over the long run will generate friction and eventually over the course of time create damage to the filter material. I am not interested in a harbor freight. If you listen to the guys video (Blake Pizzey YouTube V3000 video install)above of him using a V3000 in his sound proof shop you’ll see it’s not that bad for overall hearing and what not. My only question I’m awaiting a answer on by him or someone else would be is if they wished they had Opted for the gorilla pro? From the looks of it as he says in his video he states he’s getting 1000 CFM at the TS. An the noise is relatively quiet. I’m still kicking the can a little but although I’m excited to make a decision. I’m just overly analytical on what I decide to do.

A few things that were stated by Oneida was the gorilla pro is more about 80-82 DB when running and slightly louder due to the steel cyclone. An a baldor motor vs a Leeson on the V3000. It still using a resin casted impeller housing. An only getting 1649 cfm vs 1300 on the V3000. There will always be something that will be newer when it comes out and although that is great. I’m just trying to make a sound choice. Now if I was selling pieces for $3000 every few weeks or months I would clearly go that direction in my decision making. But as with many not that I’m tied to a budget it’s a matter of finding a DC that meets my needs and overall safety. Why I’m leaning with Oneida as it’s what they are known for doing. Slow is fast in this decision making. But I’m just trying to share as much information here to help others in the possible same situation. All input is appreciated.

Don’t get me wrong I would love to drive a Lamborghini to get a cup of coffee at 7-11 .

 

[tsmi243]

long cone cyclone

^^^ This right here may be the best rule of thumb to follow, for those of us who aren't fully up on the engineering behind these systems.  It's been a year or three since I did my best to follow Bill Pentz's research, but the few things that stand out in my memory are pretty much exactly what MiniMe has posted.  6" minimum, 5hp preferred (I believe he thought 3hp would be barely acceptable), and a LONG cone with a downward slope on the inlet pipe. 

So unless you're going to do the research for them, stick to mfg's that have long cone designs.  Or more correctly, eliminate the ones with short cones, and go from there.  OR, as Pentz has also said, lower your budget AND your expectations simultaneously.  If you have the option to vent outside, then the bar is quite a bit lower.

 

[Lbob131]

I rate the overall value as poor.  It's a clever package , being able to fit under some benches, but it ends there.

For 300 bucks less, you can buy a Felder RL140 that has twice the suction and 60% more waste capacity.

That  is  from  another  thread and  poster regarding  the  chinese  built  G700.

 

[Mini Me]

[member=62526]Peter C[/member] thanks for the response. I agree with the air. Using something to rub against a filter over the long run will generate friction and eventually over the course of time create damage to the filter material. I am not interested in a harbor freight. If you listen to the guys video (Blake Pizzey YouTube V3000 video install)above of him using a V3000 in his sound proof shop you’ll see it’s not that bad for overall hearing and what not. My only question I’m awaiting a answer on by him or someone else would be is if they wished they had Opted for the gorilla pro? From the looks of it as he says in his video he states he’s getting 1000 CFM at the TS. An the noise is relatively quiet. I’m still kicking the can a little but although I’m excited to make a decision. I’m just overly analytical on what I decide to do.

As I pointed out before the video installation is an excellent example of how not to install a dust extractor. If you want to control noise levels buy a three phase unit and the noise can be dialled into what you want by using VFD to control motor speed. The less motor speed you want to use the bigger the impeller needs to be to compensate. The difference between 50hz and 60hz is about 30% loss of air flow. The claim in the video of 1000CFM is just plain wrong and can't be done using the equipment shown and he has no basis on which to make that claim. He has no way of measuring it at all and to measure it requires complex instrumentation and a large understanding of air behaviour in a duct. I get really annoyed when I see guys in a video rant on about stuff like this and it is all bad information that others through no fault of their own take as good advice. As I said before I do this stuff for a living and in general you get out of it what you put in.

Here is a link to the best dust information on the planet for hobby woodworkers. it is mainly chaired by a gut who was a world leader on building clean rooms and he has done a lot of basic research for others to read.
https://www.woodworkforums.com/f200

Here is a link to my company website but we do not export and I only put it up to show that even now advances are being made into new methods of improving dust collection at a hobby level which is affordable. Mods, please remove this link if it contravenes forum policy. What we have done is simplify the management of dust collection in a plug and play installation at a hugely reduced price.
https://autoblastgates.com.au/

 

[JonnyBBravo]

[member=58818]Mini Me[/member] if you watched the video the in full he says he plans to do testing and such. If you watch his other videos he also borrows tools from his job. As he is an engineer.
So I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that he either will buy the tool to do such measurements or borrow them to do the said testing.

What I’m looking for here is people who’ve bought these pieces of equipment and provide feedback. Not people whom were given these tools through sponsorships. Just woodworkers experiences with these pieces of equipment. This way the information they share is based on there personal experiences and helps people buy a piece of equipment. I do appreciate the information you have shared. But the main thing I’m asking which has been answered by Blake (YouTuber). Is that if he had the cash to buy a 5 HP he would of. But he also said he wouldn’t go lower than a 3HP given his personal experiences of equipment he’s personally used.

 

[Mini Me]

My point is that HP means nothing, the impeller size is the primary factor in buying any dust extractor. The same size impeller driven by either a 3hp or 5hp will not pump any more air as long as both motors will drive the impeller equally. As I said I don't debate this stuff so your decision is your own based on the knowledge you have.

 

[JonnyBBravo]

[member=58818]Mini Me[/member] Understood. Given that statement what impeller size should someone be looking for? An what size motor should they look for to move said impeller size. I understand the size of the impeller is the driving force of the separation of the dust being drawn from the tool to collector.
I am appreciative of your shared information. Thank you.

 

[Mini Me]

I agree with Bill Pentz, 15" is the minimum, but if it was a 3 phase motor perhaps a 14"  driven at 70hz but there is a noise penalty the faster the motor spins. I was at a dust seminar the other day and someone commented on the air noise passing through the ducting and unfortunately that is something that happens when a lot of air is moving through the duct and is always a surprise to people who have used low capacity dust extractors. I think if it is noisy it is doing the job but that is just my view. The Australian dust forum is full of this sort of stuff and well worth a visit. It has been proven with facts and figures what works and what does not and I don't know of anywhere else where true R&D has been done on hobby workshop dust extraction. There you will read about the difficulties of measuring air flow in a duct as the airflow varies across the duct, slow outside and faster in the middle and that is what makes it so difficult to measure. The person doing this stuff is a physics professor and he does know what he is talking about. 

 

[JonnyBBravo]

Yes both models from Oneida have 15” impeller on the V3000 and also the gorilla pro.

 

[cubevandude]

I am just reaching out to inquire on thoughts and opinions with dust extractors. I understand everyone has there bias towards a brand such as onieda, powermatic, felder. I’m personally looking at the Harvey G700 and for a few reasons:
   

If money restraints are an issue and you are not recirculating the are back into the shop for heating purposes, I would consider blowing the dust outside into a bin.  This solves a lot of problems inside the shop concerning dust.

 

[JonnyBBravo]

[member=60014]cubevandude[/member] thank you for your feedback. It’s not that money is a restraint. The issue is in my personal life my spouses father recently told us he has to undergo emergency surgery . So given the very recent news I’m just taking the time to do more thinking of which model or product etc. venting outside isn’t an option. My main things are just wanting feedback from other woodworkers that have whatever type of dust collector model. So that’s what is presently on my plate with the purchasing decisions. But please share what your using and what you like or dislike or what you wish or want to purchase in the future. There’s no one size fits all approach it’s just sharing information that helps a fellow woodworker.

 

[Mini Me]

Just to add to my remarks above, the idea of the Clearvue design is that a long cone cyclone minimises the dust that the filters have to capture. A small detail maybe but an important one if recirculating through filters. CV reckon on a separation figure of at least 99% which a short cone cannot match.

 

[JonnyBBravo]

Just to add to my remarks above, the idea of the Clearvue design is that a long cone cyclone minimises the dust that the filters have to capture. A small detail maybe but an important one if recirculating through filters. CV reckon on a separation figure of at least 99% which a short cone cannot match.

[member=58818]Mini Me[/member] Thanks for your comments. Yes the models I’m looking at are long come styles not short cones like a Jet JDC model.

 

[etds4u]

[member=76421]JonnyBBravo[/member] you are definitely heading down the right path based on my experience with different dust collectors. I originally had a single-stage Jet 'dust spreader', which I replaced with an earlier version of the Oneida V3000, which performed exceptionally but was very loud in my basement shop. I replaced the Oneida with a Laguna Pflux 3Hp which was a huge disappointment; just as loud as the Oneida but terrible performance. The filter clogged constantly on the Laguna, even with the Laguna 'design improvement' of adding a restriction plate to the bottom of the cyclone. Sold the Laguna and replaced it with my current hybrid configuration that meets all my needs: Harvey G700 with a 30 gallon Oneida dust deputy separator installed ahead of the G700 inlet. Oneida engineers definitely know how to design an efficient cyclone, so almost nothing makes it to my G700, which also addresses the fear of debris hitting the impeller. As others have stated, don't believe the manufactures quoted numbers, avoid any of the 'short cyclone' designs, and Laguna should stick to making bandsaws (I love mine), and leave dust collector design to companies dedicated to dust collection.

 

[JonnyBBravo]

[member=13403]etds4u[/member] Thank you for your response. Yes the Harvey G700 is a sleek looking machine. My only concern would be how the CFM is affected by the dust deputy at the tool. I know that cyclones create disturbance in the path of the flow and though it adds great separation it just bogs the cfm down a little. Not sure if you did any anemometer testing. But if you would like to share a picture it would be much obliged .

I’m not bias to a specific brand but just wanting to avoid what you’ve personally experienced. 

 

[Mini Me]

A cyclone works by being inefficient and slowing down the airflow which then requires extra capacity in the motor and impeller design. It basically has to move more air than would be required if the cyclone was not in the system because it slows the air going through the cyclone. Unfortunately capturing visible debris does not guarantee the invisible dust has been removed which is the aim of DUST EXTRACTION and if after spending a lot of money installing a system it would be a poor investment. This goes without saying but it happens.

I was talking to my Oncologist during my yearly check up and telling him about the dust education program we have begun and he congratulated me because he is seeing too many cases of cancer caused by dusty work environments. Unless a monitoring system is in place the result of an installation is difficult to assess but the cleanliness is obvious of course and tools don't get lost in the mess! 

 

[JonnyBBravo]

So Jason Bents or Bents woodworking just posted a video about filter changes on the G700. It’s a rather complicated process given the video not undoable just time consuming and requires new silicone seals to be made. But the real kicker per the comments by a viewer was how often the filters have to be replaced per the manual according to Bents it’s every 6 months.Harvey G700 Filter Change - Bents Woodworking

I am just sharing information I’ve found or watched. If you own a G700 feel free to share your thoughts or experiences with regards to your machine etc. Bents Woodworking also plans to share a video next week Thursday per comments on the video to make a single filter collection point for the self cleaning feature as I assume next level carpentry has done.