Is Rotex for fine sanding?

[VesaS]

Hi all,
I'm new to FOG and I like to shortly introduce myself. I'm hobbyist for woodwork, have done some furniture and renovation in my home. I try to make top quality and often my wife's friends have admired the results. Still I'm a novice in woodworking, I think. There are times I don't touch my tools in few months, but when I have time I like to do something with wood.

I have separated shop with planer, table saw, router table, lathe and portable tools. I also have a bigger dust extractor for stationary machines and CTL 26 for portables. Quality of CTL is very good and now it is most used tool in my shop. I like it so much that I converted my portable machines to accept Plug-it hose.

Now it is time to move on and give Festools a try. I decided to buy DTS 400 and replace Bosch 125 sander with ETS 150/3. BUT.
I found Rotex and read reviews of it. And now I need some information about quality of Rotex sanders on fine sanding. I have doubts that same machine could not do coarse sanding and quality fine sanding.

Those who have both, Rotex and ETS/DTS/RTS, would you do these job with only Rotex?
fine sanding for furnitures (mostly varnished or painted finish. grits up to 320)
interior work (drywall sanding, sanding doors and windows for painting)
other woodworking (outdoor furniture, miscellanous items at home)

And if you have both machines why you have bought both?

Thanks in advance

Vesa

 

[Kev]

[welcome] Vesa

To make it simple, the ROTEX is capable of fine sanding from a technical perspective - but from a user perspective it is potentially awkward and cumbersome. That is when compared to the fine sanding specific machines which are lighter and better balanced for the job (quieter too).

The ETS150/x's are gems and I also have the DTS400 for corners ... haven't bothered with the RTS400.

I have the RO90 and RO150 and use them for aggressive sanding (and may use them for polishing in the future). I recent'y grabbed a RAS115 for rapid removal.

Of the tasks you've listed, I'd only use the ROTEX sanders on outdoor furniture if I was stripping them back ... ETS and DTS for the rest.

To give a perspective on the ROTEX sanders, some people call them "rotary belt sanders" ...

 

[Timtool]

Welcome Vesa,

I have a Rotex 150 and only use it either for polishing or rough sanding with P50-P80
Then i continue with a ETS150/5 which has the same course, but is much more easy to use, in 95% of the cases i don't need the rotex.
My ETS125 and DTS400 only come out to sand between finish coats, the rotex and ETS 150/5 are too agressive for that and will too easily get through the finish.

As a hobby user you could possible get by only with a rotex, many do. A RO90 could also give you the delta capacity, but personally they are not the most fun to use for general to finish sanding even though they perfectly can.

 

[peter halle]

Welcome to the Fog Vesa!

I started out with the Rotex and added the ETS after spending two days sanding walls and ceilings with the Rotex.  The added weight of the Rotex in those situations is not fun, but can serve as exercise.

The ETS is also much easier to handle with one hand.

In my case I consider the ETS to be a supplemental sander to the capabilities of the Rotex.

Peter

 

[VesaS]

Thank you for quick responses!

I got the confirmation I needed and I'll stick on my previous thoughts and buy DTS/ETS machines. They meet my needs best.

Reason why I joined FOG is you share your experience and knowledge. Thanks again.
Hopefully I continue the tradition.

Vesa

BTW, just calculating and I have to add ~50% more to buy the abrasives..
Granat is my choice.

 

[Kev]

Thank you for quick responses!

I got the confirmation I needed and I'll stick on my previous thoughts and buy DTS/ETS machines. They meet my needs best.

Reason why I joined FOG is you share your experience and knowledge. Thanks again.
Hopefully I continue the tradition.

Vesa

BTW, just calculating and I have to add ~50% more to buy the abrasives..
Granat is my choice.

I got to spend about 6 hours with a trainer over from Germany today. He spent a lot of time describing the technology in the various abrasives and their resulting properties. I never realised how technically advanced Granat is compared to other papers - it really is a "do it all" abrasive. In all reality if you use Granat the way it is intended you should save money.

 

[RC]

Hi Vesa, you might want to have a look at abrasive & tool prices at http://www.gerschwitz.net.

I have found that getting my abrasives and other Festool accessories from there is well worth my while vs. Finnish retail prices.

++ Reiska

 

[VesaS]

Hi Vesa, you might want to have a look at abrasive & tool prices at http://www.gerschwitz.net.

I have found that getting my abrasives and other Festool accessories from there is well worth my while vs. Finnish retail prices.

++ Reiska

Reiska, thanks. This has better prices than my normal supplier Kisling-gmbh.
I have bought systainers etc. from here. How about delivery times and overall reliability?

For others than Finns: we do have quite high prices here in Finland.

 

[RC]

Normal delivery with DHL usually takes about 10-14 days from order at a flatrate 15€ delivery charge.

I've ordered half a dozen times from then and done some related emailing in English without problems.

My last order of some Bessey clamps and Sipo-dominoes seems to be a bit slower in delivery but since I did send it in half way thru July they might be on holiday as well. (I did get acknowlegement of order,  but haven't gotten a tracking number yet)

Update: My package arrived yesterday - must have been a summer worker sending it since they only sent the receipt of transaction and not the tracking number as usual.

 

[MrToolJunkie]

The Rotex is capable of fine sanding and it is a good all around sander.  The ETS 150/3 or 150/5 can be more comfortable for this type of sanding, but the Rotex is more than capable.  I often use it from rough to fine sanding and never switch to the ETS 150.  I think it is a critical sander to have for making furniture and is extremely versatile.  As long as you move up through the grits it will do a great job.  It does take some time to get used to using it, though.

Scot

 

[hhh]

FT makes sanders in 5mm, 3mm and 2.5mm stroke for a reason (why else would they have over a dozen sanders on the market).  Stroke size and orbital pattern are a balance between efficient stock removal and resulting swirl pattern.  The 5mm stroke of the rotex leaves a swirl pattern that is not consistent with finish sanding full stop.  Finish sanders are all 2.5 – 3mm stroke for a reason – the swirl pattern is much less noticeable than a 5mm sander.  FT also makes a line of dedicated finish sanders in the 2.5mm stroke range, but they require a bit more technique….

FT’s sales/marketing literature/videos aside, you can get a decent surface with the rotex, but not a ‘fine’ surface consistent with the finishing stage of a given workflow – it’s just the nature of the thing and not a slag at the sanders themselves – they are very good products.

If you wish the see the difference in swirl patterns yourself, take a 5mm and 2.5mm to a lacquer table top and look at the scratch pattern...  Now go over the same surface with an R2E and notice the difference...  If you work with fine finishes, these differences are very noticeable to the customer...  Things change when you move from wood to production/automotive/solid surface/etc  - this is the realm of the DO, but that's a different animal...

 

[Kev]

FT makes sanders in 5mm, 3mm and 2.5mm stroke for a reason (why else would they have over a dozen sanders on the market).  Stroke size and orbital pattern are a balance between efficient stock removal and resulting swirl pattern.  The 5mm stroke of the rotex leaves a swirl pattern that is not consistent with finish sanding – full stop.  Finish sanders are all 2.5 – 3mm stroke for a reason – the swirl pattern is much less noticeable than a 5mm sander.  FT also makes a line of dedicated finish sanders in the 2.5mm stroke range, but they require a bit more technique….

FT’s sales/marketing literature/videos aside, you can get a decent surface with the rotex, but not a ‘fine’ surface consistent with the finishing stage of a given workflow – it’s just the nature of the thing and not a slag at the sanders themselves – they are very good products.

If you wish the see the difference in swirl patterns yourself, take a 5mm and 2.5mm to a lacquer table top and look at the scratch pattern...  Now go over the same surface with an R2E and notice the difference...   If you work with fine finishes, these differences are very noticeable to the customer...  Things change when you move from wood to production/automotive/solid surface/etc  - this is the realm of the DO, but that's a different animal...

I'm still at a loss as to why you are misleading everyone regarding "fine" v's "very fine"and above sanding ... even Wikipedia understands the distinction ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandpaper

The ROTEX RO 150 CAN sand to a fine finish. Not "very fine", not "extra fine", not "super fine" and not "ultra fine" ... but just plain old "fine" it can do quite well.

 

[hhh]

==> I'm still at a loss as to why you are misleading everyone regarding "fine" v's "very fine"and above sanding

most texts on finishing don't differentiate.  In a more formal finishing world, sanding is either construction/intermediate/fine.  Terms like 'super fine' are more recent marketing affectations.  Fine finish sanding indicates  ready for clear coat.  A 5mm stroke will not get you there.

BTW, why take my word for it...  Just take a course on finishing and/or try it yourself...

Most of the "Rotex-can-do-it-all" folks are doing a disservice to the user looking for advice... Read the OP.  The question is clearly about quality fine sanding...It's wrong to encourage spending $500US+ on a sander when someone specifically asks about fine sanding and telling them the the rotex will somehow meet their finishing needs.  Look, I've got every sander FT makes and multiples of several.  The rotex is a good product, but it has no place in the final stages of surface prep for clear coating.

 

[Brice Burrell]

FT makes sanders in 5mm, 3mm and 2.5mm stroke for a reason (why else would they have over a dozen sanders on the market).  Stroke size and orbital pattern are a balance between efficient stock removal and resulting swirl pattern.  The 5mm stroke of the rotex leaves a swirl pattern that is not consistent with finish sanding – full stop.  Finish sanders are all 2.5 – 3mm stroke for a reason – the swirl pattern is much less noticeable than a 5mm sander.  FT also makes a line of dedicated finish sanders in the 2.5mm stroke range, but they require a bit more technique….

FT’s sales/marketing literature/videos aside, you can get a decent surface with the rotex, but not a ‘fine’ surface consistent with the finishing stage of a given workflow – it’s just the nature of the thing and not a slag at the sanders themselves – they are very good products.

If you wish the see the difference in swirl patterns yourself, take a 5mm and 2.5mm to a lacquer table top and look at the scratch pattern...  Now go over the same surface with an R2E and notice the difference...   If you work with fine finishes, these differences are very noticeable to the customer...  Things change when you move from wood to production/automotive/solid surface/etc  - this is the realm of the DO, but that's a different animal...

I'm still at a loss as to why you are misleading everyone regarding "fine" v's "very fine"and above sanding ... even Wikipedia understands the distinction ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandpaper

The ROTEX RO 150 CAN sand to a fine finish. Not "very fine", not "extra fine", not "super fine" and not "ultra fine" ... but just plain old "fine" it can do quite well.

I'm with you on this one Kev.  People are assuming the smaller stroke is somehow going to produce a "better" finish.  That really isn't the case in almost any common woodworking scenario.  I think a lot of people would have egg on their faces when they couldn't tell which finished work piece was sanded with the /5 verses the /3 if they were put on the spot.

I believe some of the confusion comes from the fact that Festool is almost exclusively used in woodworking here in the N. America.  We tend to forget that isn't the case in the rest of the world were Festool sanders are intended for a wide rage of applications.  Thus, the need for a wide rage of "specialty" sanders with specific a sanding stroke.  

I'm quite sure many of us in N. America could live happily if Festool only ever sold 5mm stroke sanders here.  That my opinion and I don't mean to be argumentative about it but I really do think potential buyers should try it out for themselves.        

 

[Kev]

==> I'm still at a loss as to why you are misleading everyone regarding "fine" v's "very fine"and above sanding

most texts on finishing don't differentiate.  In a more formal finishing world, sanding is either construction/intermediate/fine.  Terms like 'super fine' are more recent marketing affectations.  Fine indicates  ready for clear coat.

Well we're talking Festool products, so it can't hurt to use their classification - that way the relative capabilities within their range make perfect sense to anyone buying them and reading the Festool literature.

I do have a real problem with "fine" being referred to as anything above "intermediate" - these are way to broad. I also wouldn't know where to stop with "fine" if it was where the spectrum ended.

Regardless of what you may be familiar with, to me the more detailed classifications that align with abrasive ratings make a lot more sense and that seems to be how Festool work too.

 

[hhh]

I'll buy into that...

So to clarify my terminology: a 5mm stroke RoS sander will leave a visible swirl pattern in many surfaces and may be aparent through a clear coat finish, e.x lacquer.  A 2.5mm sander will leave a scratch pattern at the limit of visibility and will be far less visible through a clear coat finish..

BTW, it's not that surface prep workflow doesn't distinguish above 'fine'... but typically doesn't involve the type of RoS we are discussing here.  Take a look at long-board sanders for an example...

 

[MrToolJunkie]

Most of the "Rotex-can-do-it-all" folks are doing a disservice to the user looking for advice... Read the OP.  The question is clearly about quality fine sanding...It's wrong to encourage spending $500US+ on a sander when someone specifically asks about fine sanding and telling them the the rotex will somehow meet their finishing needs.  Look, I've got every sander FT makes and multiples of several.  The rotex is a good product, but it has no place in the final stages of surface prep for clear coating.

I disagree with this statement.  I own several different Festool sanders and I honestly cannot tell the difference in overall finish quality when sanding to the same grit - in fact, I sometimes will sand some parts with one sander and different parts with a different sander and there is no difference in the quality of the finish that my eye can detect.  A Rotex can finish extremely well as does the RS2E or one of the ETS style sanders.  If a user is looking for one sander that is versatile and can cover the needs of rough sanding through finish sanding, then the Rotex is a great choice and what it was made for. 

Scot 

 

[nickao]

Well I agree and disagree. I have the RO 150 and love it, but I purchased the 150/3 for a reason. And its because the 150/3 can take the sanding to another level for certain projects, certain woods and certain grits.

I can see where some people would not notice a difference simply because of the work they do. If I am making an inlay I can get the sanding finish the same with the RO 150 or ETS 150. But if I have to seal and finish the piece there is no way I could use that RO150 in between coats, I have to pull out the 150/3. I also truly believe that the people that can't get the projects looking great with the RO150 are just not great at using the rotary type sander or simply don't want to take the time required to get the RO to produce the finish they want, which is fine. To get a great finish with the RO takes a knack and I have had some employees never get the hang of it. Even an apprentice can hog off wood and flatten a piece with the RO150 and then jump to the 150/3 and get a great finish though. It's just a simpler path.

Fine sanding means different things to different people. For a person that never goes above 220, from my point of view, the RO is fine. I hate over sanding and think wood looks like plastic when one gets to the higher grits. But if the higher grits are called for by the project, yes, I  jump to the 150/3. Usually anything above 220 and the ETS comes out.

I maintain the RO150 and ETS 150/3 is a great combination and a must for me. Of course I see a Ceros in my future too.

 

[Kev]

Well I agree and disagree. I have the RO 150 and love it, but I purchased the 150/3 for a reason. And its because the 150/3 can take the sanding to another level for certain projects, certain woods and certain grits.

I can see where some people would not notice a difference simply because of the work they do. If I am making an inlay I can get the sanding finish the same with the RO 150 or ETS 150. But if I have to seal and finish the piece there is no way I could use that RO150 in between coats, I have to pull out the 150/3. I also truly believe that the people that can't get the projects looking great with the RO150 are just not great at using the rotary type sander or simply don't want to take the time required to get the RO to produce the finish they want, which is fine. To get a great finish with the RO takes a knack and I have had some employees never get the hang of it. Even an apprentice can hog off wood and flatten a piece with the RO150 and then jump to the 150/3 and get a great finish though. It's just a simpler path.

Fine sanding means different things to different people. For a person that never goes above 220, from my point of view, the RO is fine. I hate over sanding and think wood looks like plastic when one gets to the higher grits. But if the higher grits are called for by the project, yes, I  jump to the 150/3. Usually anything above 220 and the ETS comes out.

I maintain the RO150 and ETS 150/3 is a great combination and a must for me. Of course I see a Ceros in my future too.

Fine sanding is Fine sanding. Fine sanding is what you do before Very Fine sanding ... which is what you do before Extra Fine sanding (which is approaching polishing).

I really don't understand why everyone want to just call it "Fine" and nothing else ... it's like asking someone the time and getting the response "day time" ... when it could be mid morning or late afternoon.

 

[wresh]

Hi,

I'm new here and have some thoughts about the Rotex sanders that I would like to share.

I own the RO150 and the RO90 and find that they cover all my sanding needs.
I previously owned the RS2E , ETS150/3 but sold them once I bought the RO150 and
when I got the RO90 I sold the RTS400 that I had.

I actually prefer the ergonomics of the the RO150 to that of the ETS150/3 and I definitely
prefer the speed of the RO150. The noise of the Rotex - not so much.

I keep reading that the RO150 is for rough grits but I would invite RO150 users to try P120 in rotary mode
followed up by P120 or P150 in ROS mode.  Much faster than using the ETS150.

As for swirl marks, Festool makes some very nice sanding blocks that use 6" sanding discs. A few passes
with the sandpaper that you last used on the Rotex or the next higher grit and you won't see any swirl
marks. As tempting as it might be to use a power sander between coats of finish, you may find that a
sanding block does the job quickly and removes less of the finish. YMMV.

Best regards from Montreal.
Walter