Is there such a thing as too smooth in regards to sanding

Thompmd

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I’ve always wondered about sanding something too smooth and if it effected the piece being able to take a finish(oil, stain, etc)??

Example: I work mostly w/kiln dried Walnut and I’ve been finishing my projects(all interior until we trimmed our mailboxes with some so it’s exposed to the elements) to 1200 grit.

I’ve also wondered if at a certain grit if the grain pores(not sure of terminology ) start to close up ?

I was also told once that once you got your projects finish sanded not to wait too long or the grain may open up?

May be overkill but I wonder what thoughts were?
 
I do think that it can be counter productive to sand to such a fine grit.  Finish needs something to grab onto.  Plus there is the time and consumable equation to throw into the mix.

Peter
 
Some say yes but my experience dictates otherwise. I routinely finish to 2000P and finish with Rubio Monocoat on coffee tables and other low traffic furniture. No ill effects and the extra sanding brings outstanding detail to figured woods. Non penetrating finishes that dry quickly might have issues and the max I go is 500P - 600P. There's to much parroted BS out there.
 
kcufstoidi said:
Some say yes but my experience dictates otherwise. I routinely finish to 2000P and finish with Rubio Monocoat on coffee tables and other low traffic furniture. No ill effects and the extra sanding brings outstanding detail to figured woods. Non penetrating finishes that dry quickly might have issues and the max I go is 500P - 600P. There's to much parroted BS out there.

There are a ton of different finishes out there and the manufacturers will generally offer guidelines on their products as a guide.  I just gave a general opinion.  If working to a high grit works for you - GREAT!

Peter
 
I installed some finished stairs in my house once going to the basement.  This was the first house I ever owned. I built the stairs out of oak and wanted the stairs to be perfect.  (my father-in-law was an excellent finish carpenter and I probably was trying to impress both him and my wife).  I sanded that wood so smooth that if you walked down the stairs in your socks you would probably slip on the smoothness of the stair treads.  My wife and I both landed on our butts on those stairs more than once.  So  I guess it depends what you are making.  I always felt the heat from sanding could also harden the wood, but do not know if that is accurate.     
 
I’m making a variety of things as I learn from shelves benches dining room table/benches etc. I’m currently using Odies Super Penetrating Oil.

I love the feel and I’m guessing the look is fairly similar from somewhat lower finishing grits? It almost feels polished. It’s all hobby and for me the feel makes it time well spent
 
Ron B said:
I installed some finished stairs in my house once going to the basement.  This was the first house I ever owned. I built the stairs out of oak and wanted the stairs to be perfect.  (my father-in-law was an excellent finish carpenter and I probably was trying to impress both him and my wife).  I sanded that wood so smooth that if you walked down the stairs in your socks you would probably slip on the smoothness of the stair treads.  My wife and I both landed on our butts on those stairs more than once.  So  I guess it depends what you are making.  I always felt the heat from sanding could also harden the wood, but do not know if that is accurate.   
for that reason on a oil based finish applied to a wood floor like an exterior deck I won’t go over a 120 grit. I think that clear floor finishes have some chemical to resist slipping. When john adams at GF gave a talk a few years back he was adamant to not use the line of poly urethanes on the floor. I think GF makes a separate line of sealers for hardwood floors.
 
I've had issues with sanding walnut too smooth.

I brought this long walnut slab up to 2000 or 4000 grit...It was beautiful and the hand feel was sensational but the grain and wood color were never really present. So I decided to give it a coat of Surfix. The Surfix did absolutely nothing, it never really penetrated the surface and it was splotchy. Here's a photo of the sanded surface.

[attachimg=1]

I then resanded the walnut to 400 grit, applied the Surfix and this is the result. You can tell it's the same piece of wood by comparing the grain details in the 2 boxes.

[attachimg=2]

 

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Cheese said:
I've had issues with sanding walnut too smooth.

I brought this long walnut slab up to 2000 or 4000 grit...It was beautiful and the hand feel was sensational but the grain and wood color were never really present. So I decided to give it a coat of Surfix. The Surfix did absolutely nothing, it never really penetrated the surface and it was splotchy. Here's a photo of the sanded surface.

[attachimg=1]

I then resanded the walnut to 400 grit, applied the Surfix and this is the result. You can tell it's the same piece of wood by comparing the grain details in the 2 boxes.

[attachimg=2]

I’ve had similar experience with hardwood and teak, with even coarser grit than 400.
It seems like with wood containing a lot of natural fat one is actually polishing and closing pores with sawdust, presumably also because of heat from sanding. Once sanded with coarser grit (180) and then thoroughly vacuumed and de-greased the surface I applied oil in several layers wet-in-wet and the depth became incredible. Manual sanding, and/or keeping speed low on your sander moving it in long strokes to aid cooling helps also.
Last time was on an indoor table, this has kept its depth despite many years of use.
 
Here's a few shot of stuff sanded to a minimum of 2000P and Rubio Monocoat Pure applied. You can decide if sanding and oil brought out the grain and colour. I've never had an issue bringing out the beauty of hardwood in furniture pieces with sanding to high grits and using oil. Would I do this on a high wear surface like a floor, NO, I'd follow the manufactures recommendation of 120P. Take the info for what it cost you.

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I normally only sand to 220 grit.  I sand only to the point I cannot see scratches in the finished piece.  I don't see the point in sanding further.  I believe floors are not sanded that fine is because we do not get down on our hands and knees and look at them as closely as we do furniture.  At least where I live (the U. S.) we also use drum sanders which are like oversized belt sanders.  So they sand with the grain.  That helps to make scratches less visible.  My floors are white oak, it doesn't show scratches much. 

If you can see scratches from 220 grit then I would sand further.  It may affect the absorption of the finish, I think it will affect many stains.  If you like the results on the finish then I don't think it hurts anything.  But I only sand as much as I have to.  It is not at all my favorite activity. 
 
Absolutely too high of grit. For high-end furniture P320 is often plenty high enough. Actually, OSMO finishes suggest not going over 220 otherwise oils won't penetrate.

It's also important to understand the difference between, say, 600 grit and P600.
 
JonathanJung said:
Absolutely too high of grit. For high-end furniture P320 is often plenty high enough. Actually, OSMO finishes suggest not going over 220 otherwise oils won't penetrate.

They say that because its typically a floor oil just like Rubio. They need the deeper scratch pattern left to by those grits. I call BS as I've shown in the pics and the hundreds of pieces I've done for customers over the last 10 years. The Bubinga table has had everyday use for at least 5 years with no issues. People are typically sheep and don't understand the properties of wood, hate sanding and finishing. Tell them something is easy and they don't believe and are to scared to try. Be innovative and break some traditions or be sheep.
 
I think we should remember members Come here and ask a question as to how other members do things or for advice... not to get beaten up for, not listening to “ the only way to do it”  or “blindly following“ a differing way Or...what a manufacture prints on their product
 
When you sand to high grits you are essentially pollishing the wood. No need to sand past 220 for any finish.
 
In my work there is no one right answer.  It all depends on what you are making and what look you are trying to achieve.

That said, for pieces where I want to highlight the wood, I will sand to 600 grit or higher, and I have sanded to 2000 grit on occasion.  The reason is that wood grain can be incredibly detailed, and sanding to higher grits brings out that detail.  Consider fine fleck in quarter sawn cherry.  At every grit above 220, a little more of that fine detail comes out.  On a floor, sanding above 220 may not be noticed, or even if it is, it may not be admired as the larger pattern of the floor overwhelms the fine detail.  On a small to medium piece of furniture, it will be noticed.  The ribbon grain in the[member=4907]kcufstoidi[/member] doors are a good example, and I bet they look even better when you look at them in person.

The Pollock Analogy

Fine differences in detail will be noticed and appreciated even if the the viewer does not identify the detail consciously.  A while back a couple of researchers had non-artists pick between Jackson Pollock paintings and paint-splash paintings by copy-cat artists.  They used a variety of paintings from Pollock and different artists, but always had the non-artist pick between one Pollock painting and one copy-cat painting.  The non-artists didn't know which was Pollock's.  Nearly always (in the 80-90% range), the non-artist subject preferred the Pollock painting.  Even if they didn't like paint splash art, they would pick Pollock as the lesser of evils.

In trying to determine why this might be, the researchers started looking at the paintings in more detail.  The only difference that they could find was that Pollock's paintings had an order of magnitude more fractal detail that the copy-cat paintings.  That is, the detail was finer, and it was organized into semi-random patterns - patterns that were not perfectly geometric.  The non-artists could not articulate this difference - no one even imagined that it existed until the researchers took a closer look - but viewers could tell that there was a difference, and clearly preferred the more detailed renderings of Pollock.

The grain of the most interesting woods is like that.  Think of patterned detail in the flecks of quarter-sawn sycamore.  Think of what the curl does to curly maple - it superimposes a curl pattern on top of the normal grain, and makes both more interesting.  Think of the change of grain direction in ribbon grained woods.  The detail of burls, of crotches, color that doesn't follow grain in woods like ziricote or rosewood.  Wood grain is not perfectly geometrical, it is a combination of the randomness of a natural material combined with patterns that organize that randomness.  The more patterns are superimposed on other patterns, the more detail.  And for some reason, the human mind sees beauty in that, even when it doesn't know why.

Finishing techniques can either enhance or detract from the beauty of the grain.  For example, if I want to bring out the grain by sanding to 600 grit or higher, I'm not going to use stain, which in my opinion just obscures detail.  (I did used a transparent stain/oil on my deck though - looks great!)  Likewise, I think oil finishes bring you as close to the wood as it is possible to get, so I tend to use oil a lot.  I haven't tried any of the catalyzed oil finishes like Rubio (& Osmo?) yet, but the more I learn, the more I want to.

While that may be a justification for sanding to higher grits, it's one that only works in certain circumstances.  In other circumstances, I sand differently.  For my deck, 120 is plenty.  For shop fixtures, 220-320 is enough.  For architectural woodwork, 220-320 is enough.  Bottom line - think about what you are trying to accomplish, and sand enough to accomplish it.  Of course, you can always do more sanding if you truly enjoy the process, but I'd rather use my time other ways.

As an aside, I don't think that sanding to high grits affects overall absorption of oils.  I've seen cherry (and other non-oily open woods - sycamore, oak, walnut) sanded to 600 grit just suck the first coat of oil into the wood, once to the point that it started coming out pores (not cracks or knots) in the other side of a 1/2" thick board.  That said, a rough surface is going to accumulate oil on the surface in the wood fibers that are still sticking up.  I imagine it holds surface (film) finishes better as well.
 
I go to 180-220 grit. It’s not worth the time to go further? If it was a table that was getting oiled maybe 320-400. Polyurethanes I’ll sand the second to last coat with 400 grit, just so I don’t strip away the second layer. It’s a case by case measure. Rules do get broken. If I’m easing and edge 320 is good, but so is a scotch pad at times.
 
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