Kapex discussion with Festool USA

[Joe Jensen]

I called Festool on another matter and also discussed Kapex.  (other matter was warrantee registration)

I chatted with a really nice guy at Festool USA about Kapex.  He Really likes the Kapex. Said they wanted it in the US before the end of the year but sales overseas are so high they may not get it in the US until late Q1 08.  He said the most amazing thing is the dual lasers and how they are adjustable.  He said that on every other CMS, the lasers can only be adjusted for when the saw is up, or the saw is down.  Apparently with the Kapex, the lasers can be adjusted to they are spot on no matter when the saw is in it's travel up and down, and back and forth.  Also, each laser is independently adjustable.  He said every possible aspect of the saw is adjustable.

 

[Tinker]

I called Festool on another matter and also discussed Kapex.  (other matter was warrantee registration)

I chatted with a really nice guy at Festool USA about Kapex.  He Really likes the Kapex. Said they wanted it in the US before the end of the year but sales overseas are so high they may not get it in the US until late Q1 08.  He said the most amazing thing is the dual lasers and how they are adjustable.  He said that on every other CMS, the lasers can only be adjusted for when the saw is up, or the saw is down.  Apparently with the Kapex, the lasers can be adjusted to they are spot on no matter when the saw is in it's travel up and down, and back and forth.  Also, each laser is independently adjustable.  He said every possible aspect of the saw is adjustable.

How 'bout when saw is tilted?
Tinker

 

[Joe Jensen]

I called Festool on another matter and also discussed Kapex.  (other matter was warrantee registration)

I chatted with a really nice guy at Festool USA about Kapex.  He Really likes the Kapex. Said they wanted it in the US before the end of the year but sales overseas are so high they may not get it in the US until late Q1 08.  He said the most amazing thing is the dual lasers and how they are adjustable.  He said that on every other CMS, the lasers can only be adjusted for when the saw is up, or the saw is down.  Apparently with the Kapex, the lasers can be adjusted to they are spot on no matter when the saw is in it's travel up and down, and back and forth.  Also, each laser is independently adjustable.  He said every possible aspect of the saw is adjustable.

How 'bout when saw is tilted?
Tinker

The claim was yes...joe

 

[brandon.nickel]

I'm going to let my evening grumpiness regarding the Domino show through with my follow-up question:

So, will the various adjustments be factory adjusted to be accurate out of the box or is this going to be another opportunity to become intimately familiar with your tool prior to doing any actual work with it?

 

[Brice Burrell]

I'm going to let my evening grumpiness regarding the Domino show through with my follow-up question:

So, will the various adjustments be factory adjusted to be accurate out of the box or is this going to be another opportunity to become intimately familiar with your tool prior to doing any actual work with it?

Brandon, Festool will be mass producing the Kapex (just like they did with the Domino) for the next year or two. So what do you think?

 

[brandon.nickel]

That's what I'm afraid of.  That's the same reason that I won't purchase anymore Jet tools.  I had to go through 3 tablesaws in order to get one that could be made to cut straight and square with much effort.  My next TS will be a SawStop which I've played with at several locations.  It's within a couple of thousands out of the box.  I wish all of the Festools were the same way.

 

[woodshopdemos]

Do you guys remember the poster of WWII "Loose Lips Sink Ships" Well we are not sinking ships, but I suggest there are some loose lips. Here is my problem(s):  Starting with Joe "I chatted with a really nice guy at Festool USA about Kapex." But we  don't know who this really nice guy is and is the Kapex response of his the real dope or hearsay at that level?  Then Tinker asks a great question about tilt and the dual lasers. And Brice adds "... Festool will be mass producing the Kapex (just like they did with the Domino) for the next year or two. So what do you think? To which Brandon.nickel answers "That's what I'm afraid of."
  So now, in putting this thread together, I can't get much enthusiasm about the new Festool product...out of the box, another Festool lemon. I know, I am adding my negativism to the "conversation." In fact, it has been my experience with all Festool products, that they are more ready to go out of the box than any other product in my shop. And, no I am not saying that just because I like Festool. The other way around, I like Festool because of the quality starting right out of the box.
  By this posting, I am not suggesting that any comment should be "censored"...on the contrary. The Forum is an open environment. But, I do suggest that when you are quoting a Festool person that the weight of the comment  appears to be greater than any other comment...and carries a greater degree of responsibility. Now, maybe Festool will chime in here or not. I don't know but I do know that I will wait for a more official answer before I get turned off on Kapex. End of my rant.

 

[Brice Burrell]

  John, you bring up two good points. I will comment on one of them, the quality of Festool products "out of the box." I agree with you completely, most of my Festool tools have been perfect out of the box. The stops for the rail brackets on my MFT and the TS55 riving knife, perfect, just to name a few. However, I do think the Domino, in a rush to get them out, is a tool that very few were/are set right at the factory. Sadly, I think the Kapex will be the same. Don't get me wrong, I will likely buy a Kapex. I'll just be ready to fine tune it myself if need be. I not really sure how I feel about this, I can see both sides. Festool needs to get the product out when it's a hot seller. But, we are paying a premium for these tools, so we have a right to hold Festool to high standard. My 2 cents.

 

[woodshopdemos]

Brice, I respect your comments. I have two Dominos and I guess I am lucky that they both are right on. I was taking a greater exception to the way the thread was threading. My one euro.

 

[Llap Goch]

Brice

I could not agree more. A premium product at a premium price should not require tinkering with. Touch wood I have not had to adjust anything on any of my Festools. I was one of the first to get a Domino here in the UK and was involved in some very interesting posts with my friend Riri on the UBeaut site as we compared my Domino in Wales with his in Belgium through a Festool Forum in Australia! Unfortunately he had to have his Domino replaced and it became apparent that as Domino production cranked up so did the number of forum posts on maladjusted or faulty tools. We are told that each Domino is tested at the factory and a record kept against the serial number so if I were one of those who had received a faulty one I would expect someone at Festool to explain how it got through the QC process and close the loop. Otherwise what is the purpose of the test. Plus it gives ammunition to that bunch of saddo's who think that Festool is Hebrew for overpriced.

The Kapex is easy to fine tune and the scales are adjustable but again you shouldn't have to out of the box. Luckily mine was perfect but again, as production is increased to meet demand, it may be that QC suffers. It will be interesting to see the posts of future owners as it arrives in CONUS and that place Down Under. I suppose my point is that having paid out $1600 I expect a level of perfection that meets my expectation of quality and precision engineering. That is why I purchase Festools and not the yellow perils and pay top dollar (or pounds) for the privilege. The Kapex is an expensive tool but there are a fair few SCMS competitors biting at its heels which, if I am honest, cut wood in two almost as well and for a lot less money. It would be a great shame if forum posts in the future are populated by dissatisfied and rightly annoyed owners who, like me, do not understand why an expensive precision tool is ...er... not as precision as it should be. ;D

As for laser adjustment. The twin lasers on the Kapex can be individually adjusted to the blade kerf should they go out of alignment. But to do so you have to pierce the plastic decal that is stuck over the adjusting screws. Now call me old fashioned but having shelled out a fair few pounds on a tool the last thing I want is a scruffy looking side decal with torn holes. I hope I never have to adjust them but if I do I will be on the phone sharpish to Herr Festool asking for a new decal.

I hope that this doesn't come over as negative but Festool should always be held to account and in fairness they are remarkably good at sorting problems and accepting responsibility. They have an incredibly loyal band of customers who enjoy their tools, who conveniently forget the price they paid for them but who read forums like this with the conviction of a converted smoker. They will go elsewhere if a plethora of posts point out that adjustment is needed before their new tool performs as advertised or to specification.

Just going to put on my steel helmet and flak jacket to await incoming.

Kapex  We're luvin it.

 

[Per Swenson]

Shorter John Lucas.

Speculation, unfounded rumors, innuendo and projection,

Do not amount to a hill of beans.

My take,  (or smallest fraction of euro)

For what I do.....I would be stoopid not to have the first one off the

Container ship....so I will let you know.

Per

 

[Joe Jensen]

Do you guys remember the poster of WWII "Loose Lips Sink Ships" Well we are not sinking ships, but I suggest there are some loose lips. Here is my problem(s):  Starting with Joe "I chatted with a really nice guy at Festool USA about Kapex." But we  don't know who this really nice guy is and is the Kapex response of his the real dope or hearsay at that level?  Then Tinker asks a great question about tilt and the dual lasers. And Brice adds "... Festool will be mass producing the Kapex (just like they did with the Domino) for the next year or two. So what do you think? To which Brandon.nickel answers "That's what I'm afraid of."
   So now, in putting this thread together, I can't get much enthusiasm about the new Festool product...out of the box, another Festool lemon. I know, I am adding my negativism to the "conversation." In fact, it has been my experience with all Festool products, that they are more ready to go out of the box than any other product in my shop. And, no I am not saying that just because I like Festool. The other way around, I like Festool because of the quality starting right out of the box.
   By this posting, I am not suggesting that any comment should be "censored"...on the contrary. The Forum is an open environment. But, I do suggest that when you are quoting a Festool person that the weight of the comment  appears to be greater than any other comment...and carries a greater degree of responsibility. Now, maybe Festool will chime in here or not. I don't know but I do know that I will wait for a more official answer before I get turned off on Kapex. End of my rant.

Sorry for sharing, won't happen again...joe

 

[Dan Clark]

...
For what I do.....I would be stoopid not to have the first one off the

Container ship....so I will let you know.

Per

Per,

You buy from Bob, right?  If so, you won't have the first one.  :-*

Dan.

 

[Brice Burrell]

  Joe, this forum is all about sharing, so please don't get turned off by one post.

I started a new thread "Speculation, rants and forum etiquette" so we don't hijack this thread any farther with speculation.

 

[Brent b]

'Bout the only leaks worth paying attention too are those from plumbing.  Not that it isn't fun to bat around ideas and such but I think it does tend to raise ones expectations. In my opinion what we have here is thwarted expectations.  I personally do a little jig when I use my domino but some consider me eccentric...
Oh yeah, and I only feel like I actually 'own' the tool until I've taken it apart a few times.  This is just part of the territory.
Brent

 

[LaserGecko]

According to the rep two whom I spoke, they're not sure if it will arrive in the US this year, they're all anxious to use one because they have all sorts of documents about it, and there is one in the USA right now...in the hands of someone involved with a manual.

Hmmmmmm. We'll have to see if there are any surprise at the big show in Vegas.

 

[Tinker]

John,
I was not trying to be smart a--, or spreading rumor, or any other type of inuendo when i asked if the lasers worked with the saw tilted.  Almost any type of measuring aparatus has some sort of deflection when changing the angle, whether it is a visual deflexion as directed from the eye of the viewer, or a deflexion from the tool registration itself.  I have never used a laser guided tool in my life, but have used all sorts of mechanical and visual measuring tools from childhood on.  (When i first started my own masonry construction business, I used a water hose for a transit level until i could afford better equipment) I have always had the question of accuracy with a laser when the tool is tilted, but have not had ocasion to ask the question of a forum made up of a group of  people who i had felt i would get an accurate, or well explained reply concerning a tool i really wanted to invest in.  When Festool came out with the Kapex with its double laser, my apprehension became twofold.  Is the result of a beam of light angled towards a workpiece spread out, or deflected in any way when that (or in the case of Kapex= those) line of light spread out to give any less accuracy than when they strike the measured object at a 90? angle?  I am already rearranging my shop with expectations to grab a Kapex as soon as they become available.  i do not think the reply i have been looking for will have any bearing on whether or not i change my mind.  Having never used a laser, i feel i can live without if it is not perfect.  Some others might be somewhat disappointed if the lasers do not meet with perfection.  i think it was a reasonable question.

item #2  I am anxiously awaiting your DVD on the Festool Shop.  I hope it will be MAC compatible.  :
Tinker

 

[Per Swenson]

Tinker,

How ya doing?

My coupla euro's again, that was a valid question and a informative follow up.

Only thing is, no one can answer it who has a saw specific for the USofA.

My opinion of lazers on chop saws however, is that they are all garbage.

Nothing more then flashing lights for the bright and shiny set.

Of course my opinion would change if one actually worked uber precise.

Also I would have to grow accustomed to its use.

That will happen someday, with this saw who is to say?

No one really, because with chop saw work, its all operator.

Darn line could be perfect and the wood could be in the wrong spot.

Blame it on the red line.

Seeing as I still mark my stock with either a knife or a #2 ticondaroga, anyway

a while back I purchased the highest rated aftermarket laser system in the US

(sawkerf)  Sure it worked as advertised,,,but methods and persnickety habits

put this in the sole role of wowing the customers. Like a paint job on a race car.

Actually used it once.

Me? I am a outside tooth perfection man.

Per

 

[Llap Goch]

"Only thing is, no one can answer it who has a saw specific for the USofA."

Per
I do not think that the lasers will be different from the Euro ones so here is my two penny worth until you get yours.

When the blade is at 90 degrees to the workpiece the laser lines are constant in width and their inner edges are exact to both outside tooth edges. The blade follows the lines (as long as the blade is true and the saw is properly set up or adjusted). Like you I always mark wood with a marking knife but the lasers accuracy has, up to now, been spot on.

Of course it could change, they could go out of alignment or be difficult to see in bright sunshine (not much of a problem with that here in Wales). But I use the lines to remind me of where I am going to cut and always drop the blade to the marked cut line to check the tooth edge before cutting. The lasers are a nice feature but not something I rely on. They are an aid, are very useful when trenching to remind me of the 'other side' and work very well in lining up the angle guide to cut mitres.

Tinker is absolutely right when the saw is tilted. The lines do spread slightly with one line wider at the dropped side of the saw head but the outer tooth edge line remains true to the marked cut line. The distance between the two laser lines is more than the blade kerf when at the most extreme angle. You can adjust the lasers should you wish but unless you were on a production run I wouldn't bother.

This does not detract from the saw at all. It is a fabulous piece of kit which allows me to cut with an accuracy that is only bettered by the Symetric and its wonderful adjustable fence.

 

[Tinker]

Thanks Per & Liap,
I would probably do just as Per suggests.  When setting up saws, etc, that have a ruler tape set exact to the saw blade, i still measure and then make some sort of test cut to be sure.  I guess that is the pessimist in me.  :
Tinker