Kapex just died
- Thread starter JCLP
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JCLP said:
Yes. I ran two additional 15A outlets into my shop and so the shop outlets are on three separate 15A circuits.
I also have a 20amp outlet I recently wired to my shop from the panel, and I use it for the same kind of auto switch for my tablesaw and dust collector. The 20 amp outlet is added as I just bought a welder.
Since the 20amp outlet is used with another 15amp outlet for the saw, there have been no more tripping.
I spent close to $400 for an electrician to install a 220V circuit for my shop (garage heater) and, after watching him, I have learned how to run my own circuits afterwards.
kevinculle
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There are two issues here...can the CT vac supply the draw demanded by a tool and does the outlet the CT vac is plugged into have adequate supply for both the vac and the tool. I will only run my Kapex directly off a 20A circuit, I would never supply my Kapex from my CT-26, and I only use the CT-26 with tools rated comfortably under its maximum supply from the tool outlet and with the vac plugged into a 20A circuit.
kevinculle said:
But don't they sell CT26 and Kapex in a package deal?
Before I sold my CT26, I ran the Kapex (and every other Festool machine) with the CT. I was not aware that you were not supposed to use the CT autostart and the Kapex as one unit.
JCLP
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If you look at Festool USA tv on YouTube, you can see instances of the Kapex plugged into the dust extractor. Their road shows, training classes etc have this setup. As you said Chuck, they do sell it as a package. The TS75 track saw and the 2200 router should not be plugged in according to the manuals.
Cheers. JC
Cheers. JC
I checked this TS 75 manual, but did not find anything about the dust extraction warning you mentioned:
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=...ts75_usa.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2BRZyoHS3J0Pqb0LPcYY5-
You have the page no.?
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=...ts75_usa.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2BRZyoHS3J0Pqb0LPcYY5-
You have the page no.?
Sorry about your Kapex.
I would like to hear officially from Festool that it is safe to use any of their power tools including the Kapex, TS75, OF2200, and HL850 with their Mini, Midi, CT26, CT36, and CT48.
I have 3 separate 20A circuits in my basement shop just for my Festool’s, so I could run a CT off one and the tool off another if I needed to. How many people have that luxury, especially people working on a job sight? I will run at least 3 more 20A circuits in my garage when I’m running the wire for the other circuits for my machinery.
I would assume that there may be a lot of people running their tools off a 15A circuit. I wonder how many of the Kapex failers happend on a 15A circuit when the Kapex was plugged into a CT? I would also like to know the failure rate on a 20A circuit and those that failed when the Kapex and CT were on different circuits. I highly doubt that any information will ever be provided to us.
I would like to hear officially from Festool that it is safe to use any of their power tools including the Kapex, TS75, OF2200, and HL850 with their Mini, Midi, CT26, CT36, and CT48.
I have 3 separate 20A circuits in my basement shop just for my Festool’s, so I could run a CT off one and the tool off another if I needed to. How many people have that luxury, especially people working on a job sight? I will run at least 3 more 20A circuits in my garage when I’m running the wire for the other circuits for my machinery.
I would assume that there may be a lot of people running their tools off a 15A circuit. I wonder how many of the Kapex failers happend on a 15A circuit when the Kapex was plugged into a CT? I would also like to know the failure rate on a 20A circuit and those that failed when the Kapex and CT were on different circuits. I highly doubt that any information will ever be provided to us.
JCLP
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The Kapex needs 13A to start up and will use less power if the load on the blade is not that much. I believe the Ct26 requires 8-9 A. 13 plus 8 is 21. Therefore 1 15 A circuit will not be suffice power. It will work, but over time it will cause problems as we our seeing burned out motors. I don't think we will see anything soon as Fedtool has been promoting this system. If you look at the Fein dust extractors they only provide 9 A in their plug.
Cheers.
Cheers.
The current that you get from any electrical outlet is not limited to or reduced by the rating of the circuit. The limiting factor is the CB which will trip and remove the power if the demand is greater than it is designed to deliver. The limit on the CT is not the max that they can supply but the max that they should supply. The limit is for the safety of the CT not the device that is plugged into it, it is there to protect the CT's wiring.
Drawing max power from an underrated circuit may result in a slight drop in the voltage due to the thinner wire but this would be less than the normal variation in the supply. One the other hand running off a long undersized extension cord (or wiring) may drop the voltage enough that the motor current increases enough to overheat the motor even though it is not exceeding the CB's rating.
The only way to check that everything is fine is to measure the voltage at the motor when it is under full load and if that is correct and the CB doesn't trip then your power is fine.
If the motor still burns out then it is not suitable for the work that you are doing and unfortunately I feel that this is where the Kapex lands.
Drawing max power from an underrated circuit may result in a slight drop in the voltage due to the thinner wire but this would be less than the normal variation in the supply. One the other hand running off a long undersized extension cord (or wiring) may drop the voltage enough that the motor current increases enough to overheat the motor even though it is not exceeding the CB's rating.
The only way to check that everything is fine is to measure the voltage at the motor when it is under full load and if that is correct and the CB doesn't trip then your power is fine.
If the motor still burns out then it is not suitable for the work that you are doing and unfortunately I feel that this is where the Kapex lands.
JCLP
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My CT26 is plugged into a dedicated 15A circuit with no extension. The Kapex plugged directly into the 26. The work I do is cabinet making and do about 2 kitchens a year. I have never cut any 2x4's with this saw. 95% of my work is cutting shelves to length and cutting profile trim for cabinets, rails and stiles.
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I would like to refer everyone to this statement from Festool. Perhaps [member=57769]TylerC[/member] can confirm if this is still the case.
http://festoolownersgroup.com/ask-f...ol-dust-extractor-outlet/msg416034/#msg416034
Seth
http://festoolownersgroup.com/ask-f...ol-dust-extractor-outlet/msg416034/#msg416034
Seth
From that statement: “To reduce the risk of fire, only connect a tool rated 3.1 amp. maximum to this receptacle”.SRSemenza said:
Is that a typo or something? 3.1A is what my beardtrimmer draws (well not really, i'm being hyperbolic). It's certainly not the 13A that the Kapex requires.
kevinculle
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The reality here is that the Kapex, or at least the 120V spec Kapex has shown itself to be susceptible to motor failure. Lacking any specific info from Festool and only having the anecdotal stories that appear here, we have no idea what the frequency of the problem is nor what the root cause is. In the face of this situation prudent owners of this $1500 piece of equipment are wise to avoid stressing the weakness of this tool and overloading the supply circuit is certainly one way to stress it. Fetsools own specs on the CT vacs seem to suggest only the foolhardy would connect a Kapex to the switched outlet. If an extension cord is needed the modest investment required for a quality 12ga cord is very cheap insurance. If you have a dedicated 20A outlet you'd be wise to plug your Kapex there, if not you'd be wise to install one.
Michael Kellough
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My previous comment about buying and returning a stop-gap saw was equal parts sarcasm and advise.
A properly designed and manufactured motor should last decades. The only repairs required should be brushes and bearings.
Festool should have a rapid replacement program to cover motor issues. And an extended warranty program for same. Until they do I think it’s appropriate for owners of defective saws to avail themselves of the only effective way to get back to work quickly and pressure Festool to take responsibility for this product.
A properly designed and manufactured motor should last decades. The only repairs required should be brushes and bearings.
Festool should have a rapid replacement program to cover motor issues. And an extended warranty program for same. Until they do I think it’s appropriate for owners of defective saws to avail themselves of the only effective way to get back to work quickly and pressure Festool to take responsibility for this product.
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Jimdude said:
Yes, but it goes on to say the following-----------------
Festool CT Dust Extractors are designed to be used with every Festool product in normal working environments. In short, you will be fine to use any of our tools with the CT. We do it all the time without issue. Remember that although it is capable of pulling 10 amps of current, it won't approach that level of draw in most applications.
An update or clarification would be good.
As far as anecdotal is concerned it is very hard to know the cause and probably makes sense to ere on the safe side. However the anecdotes related to running it off the CT are most likely a huge number on the non-failure side. I have to believe that there are umpteen (a big relative number that is not scientific or exact [smile] ) users running Kapex, TS75 etc off the CT without issue, me included.
Seth
Michael Kellough
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I don’t think the problem with the Kapex motor is a power supply issue. If it is then Festool is going the opposite way if they want to avoid future burn-outs.
Recent CTs have received a reduced capacity power cord, now 14 gauge down from 12. My old CT Mini came with a 12 gauge cord with a 20 amp plug and a 20 to 15 amp adapter.
The tool activated recepticle on that Mini says (paraphrased) “to reduce risk of fire, when connected to a 20 amp circuit limit tool to 6 amps. When connected to a 15 amp circuit limit tool to 2 amps”.
I’m not an electrician but it’s my understanding that the above warning and practically all warnings about the limits of electrical supplies refers to continuous use. Think of the duty cycle rating of a welder for example. Even when I’m ripping a stack of boards with the TS 75 (with a DD equipped Mini) the duty cycle is only around 50%. In use the bottom line is to check the temperature of the plug at the main. If it’s very warm give it a rest.
I’ve been using power tools for over 40 years and only one motor has failed. An orange colored B&D drill used for mixing drywall mud, probably designed for a 10% duty cycle. There is almost no way to exceed the duty cycle of a properly designed miter saw.
Recent CTs have received a reduced capacity power cord, now 14 gauge down from 12. My old CT Mini came with a 12 gauge cord with a 20 amp plug and a 20 to 15 amp adapter.
The tool activated recepticle on that Mini says (paraphrased) “to reduce risk of fire, when connected to a 20 amp circuit limit tool to 6 amps. When connected to a 15 amp circuit limit tool to 2 amps”.
I’m not an electrician but it’s my understanding that the above warning and practically all warnings about the limits of electrical supplies refers to continuous use. Think of the duty cycle rating of a welder for example. Even when I’m ripping a stack of boards with the TS 75 (with a DD equipped Mini) the duty cycle is only around 50%. In use the bottom line is to check the temperature of the plug at the main. If it’s very warm give it a rest.
I’ve been using power tools for over 40 years and only one motor has failed. An orange colored B&D drill used for mixing drywall mud, probably designed for a 10% duty cycle. There is almost no way to exceed the duty cycle of a properly designed miter saw.
JCLP
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I agree, that many of us, if not all, do use our Festool power tools with our CT's. It's the best dust free solution on the market and I have enjoyed it and benefited from it over the last 4 years. Clients all always impressed with how clean the work area is.
Now, I'm no electrician, but as a layman when it comes to power supply, my only source of information is the operating intsructions that comes with every tool purchased. If you at the Technical Data section on the CT26/36 manual you will see that the Total connected Load is not to exceed 12A and when the CT is at it's lowest level of suction, the maximal rating of a connected power tool can be 9.1A. This right from the manual.
So now I take out the manual for the Kapex and read the Technical Specification section and see that it requires 13A. So I conclude that the Kapex should not be plugged into the CT and should be on a non-loaded 15A circuit. If you plug in the CT into a 15 A circuit, it will draw a medium value of 8.3A, but a maximum power consumption of 10 A is possible.
So using simple math, I have a 15 A circuit, CT26/36 will use an average of 8.3 A and the Kapex needs 13 A. 8.3 plus 13 equals 21.3 A. So according to the math, a 20 A circuit will not be suffice.
Now, I have been told that over current (Amps ) and to low of current will cause over heating in the motor, thus deteriorating
the insulation in the windings, and over time will cause motor failure.
Please keep in mind that I'm by no means an electrical expert of pretend to be one, so the only info I can rely on are the operating instructions from manuals.
The other concern I have is Warranty. If you read the Warranty page you will see the following statement.
" This warranty is valid on the pre-condition that the tool is used and operated in compliance with the Festool operating instructions"
So based on the operating instructions of both the CT26/36 and Kapex KS 120 manual, plugging the Kapex into the dust extractor is not in compliance with the Festool operating instructions. This is based solely on the technical specs for both machines.
Thought I would share my findings for the morning.
Cheers,
JC
Now, I'm no electrician, but as a layman when it comes to power supply, my only source of information is the operating intsructions that comes with every tool purchased. If you at the Technical Data section on the CT26/36 manual you will see that the Total connected Load is not to exceed 12A and when the CT is at it's lowest level of suction, the maximal rating of a connected power tool can be 9.1A. This right from the manual.
So now I take out the manual for the Kapex and read the Technical Specification section and see that it requires 13A. So I conclude that the Kapex should not be plugged into the CT and should be on a non-loaded 15A circuit. If you plug in the CT into a 15 A circuit, it will draw a medium value of 8.3A, but a maximum power consumption of 10 A is possible.
So using simple math, I have a 15 A circuit, CT26/36 will use an average of 8.3 A and the Kapex needs 13 A. 8.3 plus 13 equals 21.3 A. So according to the math, a 20 A circuit will not be suffice.
Now, I have been told that over current (Amps ) and to low of current will cause over heating in the motor, thus deteriorating
the insulation in the windings, and over time will cause motor failure.
Please keep in mind that I'm by no means an electrical expert of pretend to be one, so the only info I can rely on are the operating instructions from manuals.
The other concern I have is Warranty. If you read the Warranty page you will see the following statement.
" This warranty is valid on the pre-condition that the tool is used and operated in compliance with the Festool operating instructions"
So based on the operating instructions of both the CT26/36 and Kapex KS 120 manual, plugging the Kapex into the dust extractor is not in compliance with the Festool operating instructions. This is based solely on the technical specs for both machines.
Thought I would share my findings for the morning.
Cheers,
JC
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