Kapex KS 120 vs KSC 60

[COBill]

Of note is that Festool actually sell a power module to add an extra auto-start power socket for the CT26/36/48's, and explicitly describe it as giving you the ability to run two tools off the CT simultaneously!

Festool Electrical outlet module Modul-SD E/A CT 26/36/48 online

www.festool.com

This alone infers to me that within reason, the specified socket rating isn't as critical as thought.

Those outlets were EU-only and had a specified power limit of 1800W.

EU Secondary Power Outlet Installation

 

[luvmytoolz]

Those outlets were EU-only and had a specified power limit of 1800W.

EU Secondary Power Outlet Installation

I noted that, but also that they did had the UK version, but not for the US which was suspected because of UL/Legislation issues.

But if a socket was overloaded, the MOV in the control circuitry should kick in and cut power, but as you say earlier, depending on how the load was drawn, you could still end up with some burnt cabling.

 

[woodferret]

Of note is that Festool actually sell a power module to add an extra auto-start power socket for the CT26/36/48's, and explicitly describe it as giving you the ability to run two tools off the CT simultaneously!

Festool Electrical outlet module Modul-SD E/A CT 26/36/48 online

www.festool.com

This alone infers to me that within reason, the specified socket rating isn't as critical as thought.

The tools they list are sander and jigsaw though. (edit: at least the NA ones I was looking at before you even posted it). From the Modul-SD E/A version (the one with automatic switching). The Modul-SD (manual switching) has a more generic 'tool'. Clue?

 

[tjbnwi]

The weakest part of the CT’s auto tool system are the wipes in the receptacle itself. There was a time when the U.S. CT’s had single wipes in the receptacle.

I own 11 CT’s of various sizes, I have changed the receptacle at least once on each one, most more than once. I keep spare receptacles on the shelf. Have yet to find a wire issue witrh any of them going all the way back to my original CT 22.

Again, the receptacles amperage limit is a simple math function based on the NEC.

Tom

 

[COBill]

I noted that, but also that they did had the UK version, but not for the US which was suspected because of UL/Legislation issues.

But if a socket was overloaded, the MOV in the control circuitry should kick in and cut power, but as you say earlier, depending on how the load was drawn, you could still end up with some burnt cabling.

If you look at what those sockets were, they were to add a second power outlet to a CT, and were available in two forms, one that was a straight power pass through, and one that was switched with the vac power.

They did not offer them in a form that would turn the vac off and on when it detected a power draw like the current outlets do, so that strongly hints the current limitation is in the smart circuitry, but it may also be in the wiring of the "primary" power socket.

 

[ChuckS]

I didn't check if it's still the case, but during the time I bought my Kapex 120 EB, Festool vendors offered package deals, such as "Festool Kapex KS 120 EB Sliding Compound Miter Saw & CT Dust Extractor Packages." I bought the CT26 before I landed on the Kapex and used them together subsequently.

It bordered either negligence or technical incompetence on the German manufacturer if Festool allowed such package sales while knowing its CTs wouldn't support the Kapex or ran the risk of CT malfunctioning. But that's a very very big if.

 

[COBill]

I didn't check if it's still the case, but during the time I bought my Kapex 120 EB, Festool vendors offered package deals, such as "Festool Kapex KS 120 EB Sliding Compound Miter Saw & CT Dust Extractor Packages." I bought the CT26 before I landed on the Kapex and used them together subsequently.

It bordered either negligence or technical incompetence on the German manufacturer if Festool allowed such package sales while knowing its CTs wouldn't support the Kapex or ran the risk of CT malfunctioning. But that's a very very big if.

Why? The fact that they’re sold together in no way endorses plugging the KAPEX into the CT.

You can buy them together and plug them both into the same outlet, though really they should be plugged into different circuits.

 

[Cheese]

There was a time when I was gainfully employed as a design engineer and this type of discussion would surface periodically in design reviews because it was always pertinent to everything that was currently under a new design/discussion. It usually devolved into a discussion of what's theoretical vs what's reality. These long-winded discussions were usually boring as hell because it was easier to just go into the lab and prove that the theoretical aspect was a bit off.

So let's start with reality:
From the owners manual of the CT 15 E & CT 25 E...the max is 240watts.
From the owners manual of the CT 26 E & CT 36 E...the max is 1440 watts.
From the owners manual of the CT 36 E AC...the max is 1440 watts.
From the owners manual of the CT MINI & CT MIDI...,the max is 1200 watts.
From the owners manual of the CT 22 & CT 33...the max is 1200 watts.
From the supplemental issue of the owners manual for the current CT dust collectors...the max is 1200 watts.
From the owners manual of the CT 36 E AC HEPA...the max is 444 wats.

From this...folks are free to come to their own conclusions and after running a Kapex plugged into MIDI for the last 5 years, I have no issues with the Festool vac and consider the low amperage ratings as BS.

From a common sense standpoint does it make sense that the most inexpensive vacuums and also the most expensive vacuums would have the lowest amperage ratings while the bunch in the middle would be perfect for the job?

 

[ChuckS]

Why? The fact that they’re sold together in no way endorses plugging the KAPEX into the CT.

You can buy them together and plug them both into the same outlet, though really they should be plugged into different circuits.

Your statement is tantamount to saying it was fine for a car dealership to sell a new car with a new set of winter tires as a package deal that the winter tires were meant for a different model.

 

[COBill]

Your statement is tantamount to saying it was fine for a car dealership to sell a new car with a new set of winter tires as a package deal that the winter tires were meant for a different model.

It's more like you bought a new electric stove and a power strip at Best Buy and expect to be able to plug the stove into the power strip.

 

[COBill]

There was a time when I was gainfully employed as a design engineer and this type of discussion would surface periodically in design reviews because it was always pertinent to everything that was currently under a new design/discussion. It usually devolved into a discussion of what's theoretical vs what's reality. These long-winded discussions were usually boring as hell because it was easier to just go into the lab and prove that the theoretical aspect was a bit off.

So let's start with reality:
From the owners manual of the CT 15 E & CT 25 E...the max is 240watts.
From the owners manual of the CT 26 E & CT 36 E...the max is 1440 watts.
From the owners manual of the CT 36 E AC...the max is 1440 watts.
From the owners manual of the CT MINI & CT MIDI...,the max is 1200 watts.
From the owners manual of the CT 22 & CT 33...the max is 1200 watts.
From the supplemental issue of the owners manual for the current CT dust collectors...the max is 1200 watts.
From the owners manual of the CT 36 E AC HEPA...the max is 444 wats.

From this...folks are free to come to their own conclusions and after running a Kapex plugged into MIDI for the last 5 years, I have no issues with the Festool vac and consider the low amperage ratings as BS.

From a common sense standpoint does it make sense that the most inexpensive vacuums and also the most expensive vacuums would have the lowest amperage ratings while the bunch in the middle would be perfect for the job?

The US manual for the CT 36 E AC states:

Connecting electric power tools

Observe the maximum connected loads for the appliance socket (see chapter "Technical data").
Make sure that the power tool is switched off before connecting or disconnecting.

Then under "Technical data," it states (emboldening mine):

Power consumption (dust extractor only) 2.9 - 8.3 A (350 - 1000 W) 1.)
Total connected load max. 12A (1440W)
Max. rating of connected Power Tool 3.7 A 2.)

Footnotes:

1. ) 8.3 A (1000 W) is the medium value for different operation conditions, a maximum power consumption of 10 A (1200 W) is possible.
2. ) When the suction power adjuster [1-7] is adjusted to the lowest suction power (see page 10, chapter Settings - Adjusting the suction power) the maximal rating of a connected power tool can be 9.1 Amps.

However, once again, from the US manual for the KAPEX KS120 REB, under Specifications:

Performance 13 A

So even with the suction power at the lowest setting, it's still too much draw for the appliance outlet on the older models.

The US manual for the newer EI AC HEPA models instead states the following under "Technical data" (emboldening again mine):

Power consumption 2.9 - 8.3 A (350 –1000 W)
Max. rating of connected Power Tool 3.7 A

What's really interesting is if you look up the European manual for the CTs, you see:

Max. electrical outlet module connected load
EU 2400W
CH, DK 1100W
GB 230 V/110 V 1800W/230W

 

[woodferret]

This all reminds me of IEC C14 connectors that we see everywhere in electronics. They're all rated 10A. Although I've definitely seen them used on 1500W+ devices. They are built like tanks though and practical limit is higher than 15A. Legally though, it's 10A. This feels like the same situation - although I do suspect people have managed to fry the circuit in the past and chalk it up to 'Festool sux'. Those that can surprisingly run a high continuous tool load beyond 2 hrs straight aren't necessarily electrical engineers.

* Corollary - don't buy CTs from drywallers

 

[luvmytoolz]

This all reminds me of IEC C14 connectors that we see everywhere in electronics. They're all rated 10A. Although I've definitely seen them used on 1500W+ devices. They are built like tanks though and practical limit is higher than 15A. Legally though, it's 10A. This feels like the same situation - although I do suspect people have managed to fry the circuit in the past and chalk it up to 'Festool sux'. Those that can surprisingly run a high continuous tool load beyond 2 hrs straight aren't necessarily electrical engineers.

* Corollary - don't buy CTs from drywallers

Among my many hobbies I dabble in foundry work and smelting, so over the years I've stripped many, many, hundreds of 10A IEC cables from datacentre pullouts for the copper and brass, and although they're all stamped with a 10A (2400W) rating, some of them the copper strands were so thin they couldn't have been more than 5A-7.5A at the most, which for most gear is still fine, but I definitely wouldn't want to put a large load on them. Numerous suppliers here also sell the 10A IEC male to 16A IEC female cables for the larger draw hardware, which is illegal, but....!

A lot of the cheaper import cables the strands practically fall out of the brass terminal pins when I strip them, pretty scary stuff really.

 

[ChuckS]

It's more like you bought a new electric stove and a power strip at Best Buy and expect to be able to plug the stove into the power strip.

No, your analogy (which is not the same as my car dealership example) is wrong.

If I picked up the stove and power strip myself, I couldn't blame Best Buy if the pair didn't work out. But if I bought the stove and power bar offered as a set by Best Buy, then I had every reason to complain or return them if the power bar and stove didn't fit for each other.

Festool would have been leading a sales based on deception if it had pushed for the package deals or allowed it to happen and if it was aware that the Kapex and the CT of choice wouldn't work together.

The sales or consumer world as we know it would be upside down if we bought your kind of reasoning and salesmen could rely on deception practices like that.

So at the end of the day, it's a trust issue. Do we trust Festool that it's safe to use its tools with its dust extractors? We see them used together in their official videos and we see them sold together in the stores. I do.

 

[Cheese]

Here's an example of what Chuck was referring to in his earlier post. These are 2 pages from a Festool catalog touting their Package Deals. "Package deals are the best way to get the most value. Since Festool tools work as a system, the best deals can be found when they are bought together."

What struck me with these catalog pages, is that instead of telling you to purchase vacuum part number X and tool part number Y, they give you a single part number that bundles the vacuum & the tool together. That's a pretty strong indication of compatibility.

 

[ChuckS]

Good observation.

 

[Dr. P. Venkman]

What struck me with these catalog pages, is that instead of telling you to purchase vacuum part number X and tool part number Y, they give you a single part number that bundles the vacuum & the tool together. That's a pretty strong indication of compatibility.

Their marketing photos for the Kapex also show it plugged into a CT.

Festool’s position is quite obviously that the Kapex and other tools are intended to be plugged into the dust extractor.

I understand COBill’s math (and his hesitancy, given the label on the outlet), but they’re not going to come back and say that you shouldn’t have done that.

Anyone who is uncomfortable running the power for a given tool through the vac shouldn’t do it, but Festool’s position on the matter is clear.

 

[ReneS]

Is the email from Festool that semenza posted no longer applicable? I am surprised it wasn't mentioned yet.

Here it is:

Thank you for contacting Festool. All of the Dust Collectors will work with all Festool tools when used under normal conditions.

It is important to know that all Festool tools have variable speed and will have different amounts of amperage draw depending on how they are used. Most Festool tools will not use maximum amperage draw including the CT Dust Extractors, therefore the tools will work just fine with a wall receptacle that provides 15A or 20A.

The only time you might want to separate a tool will be when using a large amperage draw tool when using it at maximum capacity. All Festool tools when used under normal circumstances will use an amperage amount that can be shared and will be just fine.

When using a non Festool tools, please make sure your tool and CT Dust Collector combination does not exceed the amperage that is available from the wall receptacle.

Edit. Hmmmm, maybe it doesn't say what I thought it says.

 

[COBill]

Here's an example of what Chuck was referring to in his earlier post. These are 2 pages from a Festool catalog touting their Package Deals. "Package deals are the best way to get the most value. Since Festool tools work as a system, the best deals can be found when they are bought together."

What struck me with these catalog pages, is that instead of telling you to purchase vacuum part number X and tool part number Y, they give you a single part number that bundles the vacuum & the tool together. That's a pretty strong indication of compatibility.

I disagree; the tools being usable together doesn't mean you can plug one into the other.

In the end, it really doesn't matter; I wouldn't risk it myself.

 

[COBill]

Is the email from Festool that semenza posted no longer applicable? I am surprised it wasn't mentioned yet.

When using a non Festool tools, please make sure your tool and CT Dust Collector combination does not exceed the amperage that is available from the wall receptacle.

Edit. Hmmmm, maybe it doesn't say what I thought it says.

I think a big key is 120V vs 240V, looking again at what the Euro manual stated, emboldening mine:

Max. electrical outlet module connected load
EU 2400W
CH, DK 1100W
GB 230 V/110 V 1800W/230W