Kapex miter table hard to turn or Scraping?

[ccmviking]

Guys,

      Just wanted to start a new thread as the discussion on this started on another topic (sort of).  I'm a little surprised to see no response from Festool on this  issue as it is a known problem and people seem to be out there floundering around trying to get their new $1,300 purchase to work as intended. 

      There are two ways that the miter gauge can scrape and be a problem. 

1)  The Miter lock does not completely release and drags on the BOTTOM of the miter gauge.  Festool's fix is to send out the bottom cam plate with different thickness (depth) of detents.  This appears to open up the clearance on the bottom if this is your issue. 

2) The tab that hangs down from the moving miter table rubs on the top outside edge of the Miter Gauge.  Festools answer for this is the remove the Cam Plate, Miter Handle, and scrape the paint off the tab so that it allows a little more clearance between that tab and the miter gauge.  This fix may have worked in a few cases.

  Either one of these problems can cause some scrape marks and burring on the miter gauge that can just keep causing a user problems.  You will need to sand and smooth out the Miter gauge.

  My saw has now suffered from both of these issues and scraping the paint and several layers of metal off the tab have not solved the rubbing issue.  It still scrapes pretty hard.  I will get my Replacement Kapex tomorrow but don't have my hope that it's going to be ok either.  I thought I just had a bad one but after seeing the other messages I know that's not the case now.

It's time to stop thinking this is just because of the tight tolerances and that taking off some paint will fix it.  I like others didn't have a problem with any contact at first.  Things were working well on the first day until about 11AM and then I couldn't hardly turn the table.  All contact at this point was on the bottom of the Miter Gauge.  I got the replacement plate the next day (Thanks Festool) and it Worked!  That is until about 11AM that day and then the Miter table started locking up again.  I thought it was the same thing but after taking off the miter handle and plate noticed that I now had severe contact at the top of the plate.  I took it all apart and scraped off Paint and metal about 4 times and couldn't get it to stop!  I'm now awaiting a replacement saw.  Something on the Miter Table is moving.  Unless this design is allowing temperature to really change these tolerances something else is amiss.  I don't believe it has anything to do with paint on a tab.  Why does it not rub and then after use start GRINDING and BINDING? 

    Christian?  Shane?  Can either of you give us users/customers a little information on this issue?  I am concerned and have invested a lot of time, money, emotion on this. 

Thanks,

Chris...

 

[Brice Burrell]

Chris, thanks for taking the time to start this thread. I too hope to hear from the Festool staff on this issue. Please report back when you get the new saw and keep us posted on how it works days after initial use. Good luck.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Anyone know the link to the parts diagram for this saw?
I'd like to see what keeps the miter table level.
The problem could be something on the opposite side from the miter scale.

Hygroscopic nylatron? 

 

[monte]

Anyone know the link to the parts diagram for this saw?
I'd like to see what keeps the miter table level.
The problem could be something on the opposite side from the miter scale.

Hygroscopic nylatron? 

I guess that would almost be an inside joke, very funny.

 

[Per Swenson]

No, No joke.

nylatron

Ever wonder what the plastic in all the Festool line is?

per

 

[monte]

No, No joke.
nylatron
Ever wonder what the plastic in all the Festool line is?
per

Good point, but.........

Actually, I was referring more to the hygroscopic part.

and the "joke" reference was in fact the truth,

to an earlier discussion - as to why the table slides on the "Joinmaker Pro",

could be a bit sticky in the first morning's use on a very humid or wet day.

[attachimg=#]

Roger

 

[Per Swenson]

Sorry, I'am an ass.

P.

 

[monte]

Thank you Rick,

I don't own a Kapex yet.

But your above memo is going into my "Kapex coming folder".

Roger

 

[Forrest Anderson]

Anyone know the link to the parts diagram for this saw?
I'd like to see what keeps the miter table level.

Michael

The Parts Diagram is on the Festool USA website, but isn't obvious!

Go to the Festool USA Parts Catalogue

Note that the Kapex isn't listed under Sawing! Instead, go towards the top of the page, where it says "You can browse our online parts catalog with diagrams" and click the link. This takes you to the US version of the Festool EKAT (Ersatzteilkatalog - Spare Parts Catalog).

On the left-hand side, click the + symbol next to "Sawing" to expand that category, and this will reveal an entry for "Sliding compound mitre saw". Click on the + symbol next to that entry in order to expand it, and you'll get an entry for "495649 - KS 120 EB 120V USA".

Click on that entry, and a parts diagram for the Kapex will appear on the right-hand side, complete with prices of individual parts.

Note that the diagram is spread over two pages - click the orange arrows at the top to navigate between the pages.

Forrest

 

[monte]

Anyone know the link to the parts diagram for this saw?
I'd like to see what keeps the miter table level.

Michael

The Parts Diagram is on the Festool USA website, but isn't obvious!

Go to the Festool USA Parts Catalogue

Note that the Kapex isn't listed under Sawing! Instead, go towards the top of the page, where it says "You can browse our online parts catalog with diagrams" and click the link. This takes you to the US version of the Festool EKAT (Ersatzteilkatalog - Spare Parts Catalog).

On the left-hand side, click the + symbol next to "Sawing" to expand that category, and this will reveal an entry for "Sliding compound mitre saw". Click on the + symbol next to that entry in order to expand it, and you'll get an entry for "495649 - KS 120 EB 120V USA".
Click on that entry, and a parts diagram for the Kapex will appear on the right-hand side, complete with prices of individual parts.
Note that the diagram is spread over two pages - click the orange arrows at the top to navigate between the pages.
Forrest

So that's where the parts diagram is for the MFT/3!
You're 100% right.
It isn't obvious.

Especially when you look at the page below,
where the MFT 1080 and 800 links are living.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Oh, By the way. If you need to make an emergency repair and do not have time to wait for a plate, you can remove the two mounting screws and add 1-2 pieces of paper under the plate as a shim. On the same note, if your miter lock is too loose, then add a shim under the near end (closest to the operator's position when using the saw).

Thanks Rick, this little bit of advice adds a lot to helping me understand the problem.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Anyone know the link to the parts diagram for this saw?
I'd like to see what keeps the miter table level.
The problem could be something on the opposite side from the miter scale.

Hygroscopic nylatron? 

I guess that would almost be an inside joke, very funny.

Yep, just for you Roger 

 

[Michael Kellough]

Anyone know the link to the parts diagram for this saw?
I'd like to see what keeps the miter table level.

Michael

The Parts Diagram is on the Festool USA website, but isn't obvious!

Go to the Festool USA Parts Catalogue

Note that the Kapex isn't listed under Sawing! Instead, go towards the top of the page, where it says "You can browse our online parts catalog with diagrams" and click the link. This takes you to the US version of the Festool EKAT (Ersatzteilkatalog - Spare Parts Catalog).

On the left-hand side, click the + symbol next to "Sawing" to expand that category, and this will reveal an entry for "Sliding compound mitre saw". Click on the + symbol next to that entry in order to expand it, and you'll get an entry for "495649 - KS 120 EB 120V USA".

Click on that entry, and a parts diagram for the Kapex will appear on the right-hand side, complete with prices of individual parts.

Note that the diagram is spread over two pages - click the orange arrows at the top to navigate between the pages.

Forrest

Forrest you're a hell of a internet sleuth!

 

[monte]

Anyone know the link to the parts diagram for this saw?
I'd like to see what keeps the miter table level.
The problem could be something on the opposite side from the miter scale.

Hygroscopic nylatron? 

I guess that would almost be an inside joke, very funny.

Yep, just for you Roger 

thanks Michael, now could you pass the beer down the bar? 
You know, ..............the Belgium Bud.

 

[ccmviking]

Oh, By the way. If you need to make an emergency repair and do not have time to wait for a plate, you can remove the two mounting screws and add 1-2 pieces of paper under the plate as a shim. On the same note, if your miter lock is too loose, then add a shim under the near end (closest to the operator's position when using the saw).

Rick's explanation may be Festool official stance on what is causing the scraping it's not what I experienced and it doesn't explain the many people that have NO issue with their saw and then DO have an issue.  Something changed drastically as mine went from not dragging top or bottom to almost stuck on bottom.  It became very hard to turn.  Then after changing the plate It had a lot of clearance on bottom and then started grinding at the top  and became very hard to rotate the table again.  It's not a slight oh it's designed to touch slightly kinda rub.  It had a lot of friction to a point of sticking and scraping the top of the miter gauge.  So it galled and rubbed on bottom after working fine, then after fixing that problem it went from working fine to sticking and grinding at the top.  I tried the removing the paint fix as suggested by Festool and it didn't work. 

So Rick although I really appreciate your response, your making light of the situation when you haven't heard what people have stated isn't helpful.  My saw did not exhibit normal behaviors as you might like everyone to believe and changing out the plate did not fix my saw.  What is the reason the miter gauge goes from NO contact top or bottom (I guess this is when it's abnormal, huh?) to rubbing either top/bottom or both?

So does everyone out there have rubbing at the top of their Miter Guage?  Is it a slight rub or something more?  Do you notice if it is worse sometimes than other times?  Is the noise a slight rub or more of a grinding sound?

Chris...     

 

[Michael Kellough]

I was mostly kidding about the nylatron but if the guide plate (part #130) is nylatron
(and there is a good chance it is MDS filled nylatron but the parts diagram doesn't identify materials)

then high humidity could raise the whole miter table causing the spring plate (#115)
to rub on the bottom of the bottom of the miter scale.

Conversely, low humidity could cause the miter table to sit lower and the clamp tab
would scrape the top of the miter scale.

 

[Brice Burrell]

I believe Chris and Michael are on to something. My saw's miter movement was stiff out of the box, I wouldn't say if grinding, after some use in move more freely. I didn't give it another thought until late last week when using the saw outside in the heat some of the stiffness came back.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

(Rick, no problem with your using the picture.)

 

[mantonuc]

Brice,

  When I first got mine, I took it out of the perfectly undamaged box and it looked great.  Since I had a lot of company in for the 4th, I decided not to spend too much time with the saw.  Every now and then, I would sneak into the shop (2-car garage) and play with it a bit.  I made several cuts and the miter worked great...  I live in Atlanta where during the day time, the sun can get extremely hot...  On Saturday, I pulled the saw out of the shop for the first time and used it sitting directly on my Deck.  It worked great for a while, but as the day wore on, it got very stiff to adjust the miter position (physically grinding)...  At the end of the day, I put it back in the garage.  Yesterday, the miter could be adjusted freely while sitting in the garage...

  With the first saw that I tried at Woodcraft, the miter was easy to adjust initially...  While playing with it, we tilted the saw up to look at how the base was machined...  Immediately after that, the saw would scrape when adjusting the miter.  I am not suggesting anything specific, but it seems that there might be a correlation to how one handles it or what conditions it is used in...

Matt

 

[Michael Kellough]

Miter saws have been around for more than 30 years now. There have been a lot of means devised to lock the miter. While most of the other features of miter saws have been improved or exceeded in the Kapex the miter lock isn't one of them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most other miter saws lock onto something other than the miter scale?
And the miter scale is an independently attached reference?

On the Kapex, miter locking depends on three screws fitted though large holes. If those screws loosen you've got a lot of trial and error adjustment to do. (TIP, make a couple of reference miters while it is dead own to aid in recovering the saw setting so you can derive the miter scale setting from that)

Making the miter scale do double duty (critical duty) isn't an improvement IMO.

 

[monte]

I believe Chris and Michael are on to something. My saw's miter movement was stiff out of the box, I wouldn't say if grinding, after some use in move more freely. I didn't give it another thought until late last week when using the saw outside in the heat some of the stiffness came back.
Anyone else have thoughts on this?
(Rick, no problem with your using the picture.)

I made a kidding, but real reference earlier about hygroscopic issues when Michael brought it up.

Here's what John Economaki, from Bridge City Tools said about a similar issue (about the rubbing) on a different piece of equipment, the "Jointmaker Pro".
True, we are talking about two completely different designs, what we should/could be focusing on is the hygroscopic issues with Nylatron......

(If in fact it is a Nylatron made part on the Kapex.)

"The Nylatron ways need to be adjusted over time--it's easy. In addition, this material appears to be slightly hygroscopic--I had a lengthy session on a Saturday, came in Sunday (it was raining) and my tables were snug--it took a couple of minutes to get them working like the puck on an air hockey table. We lube them with Teflon. They are designed to "give way" if somebody tries to do something outside of the scope of the tool--like try to crosscut a 16' plank of hardrock maple after losing a match on American Gladiators... "

Roger