KAPEX PRECISION OF CUT AND ACCURACY VS???
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Birdhunter
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With all due respect, I think the basic question is somewhat meaningless.
To get a scientifically meaningful answer, one would have to conduct countless comparison tests of cross samples of different manufacturers' saws cutting cross sections of wood types and thicknesses, with cross samples of saw blades, and cross samples of types of cuts. And, you would want to test a number of saws within a category to be sure you had representative samples of each saw.
Asking members of this forum the question gets you honest but largely anecdotal responses with sample sizes too small to have any scientific meaning.
My "opinion" is that once a saw achieves a minimal level of accuracy, it doesn't matter anymore. We are cutting a dynamic medium ... wood. We are not cutting metal to aerospace tolerances.
To get a scientifically meaningful answer, one would have to conduct countless comparison tests of cross samples of different manufacturers' saws cutting cross sections of wood types and thicknesses, with cross samples of saw blades, and cross samples of types of cuts. And, you would want to test a number of saws within a category to be sure you had representative samples of each saw.
Asking members of this forum the question gets you honest but largely anecdotal responses with sample sizes too small to have any scientific meaning.
My "opinion" is that once a saw achieves a minimal level of accuracy, it doesn't matter anymore. We are cutting a dynamic medium ... wood. We are not cutting metal to aerospace tolerances.
campbellcraft
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- Jun 4, 2007
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More accurate? I don't think so. Easier to be accurate, yes. Easier for me means more likely to be accurate. Combined with the hold down, dust collection, light weight, and other small details, the kapex was a good investment for me.
you can get virtually any saw on the market to be as 'accurate' as the Kapex. The difference is in the repeatability and ease repeatability and the ease to which you can 'reset' the Kapex to 'zero' should it happen to fall out of adjustment. Accuracy is not a stand-alone function.
I currently own a Bosch (but have used a Kapex numerous times), and it takes me about 2 hours to re-zero. Not that I have to do it often, but I have had to do it several times and it is a rather convoluted process and for me it requires the manual in hand to do so.
I currently own a Bosch (but have used a Kapex numerous times), and it takes me about 2 hours to re-zero. Not that I have to do it often, but I have had to do it several times and it is a rather convoluted process and for me it requires the manual in hand to do so.
Is the question worthless?? Maybe but what it does prove is all the accuracy claims are also kind of jaded and not true?
To the guy with the pic of the moulding you are telling me that the Rigid saw is properly adjusted as it does not appear so in the pic at all. What happened to the edge on the rigid cut? Why is one side shorter then the other? These are the kind of pics that look sensational on a forum but I am a bit lost with how that saw is properly set up. If you said that happened after 5 cuts or you couldn't adjust the Rigid I can somewhat understand. Also what kind of new blade? Although not sure how that effects the mitre?
In my conclusion the Kapex is not any more accurate then a comparable x or y brand. What makes the Kapex a better saw is it's ability to be adjusted and keep its accuracy. So all the throw you saw away untill you need rough cuts is not trully fair. Is it a better built saw, yes probably it is.
If used in a hobby shop where it is pulled out once every couple of months the adjustment issue is a non issue. I do understand how this is not desirable for a daily use contractor. Then again bouncing around to the site would require checking again.
I think the people who are posting these exaggerated claims look silly plain and simple. If someone said it is no more accurate then a properly set up Makita but the other attributes make it worth the extra $700 it is more credible. I know I limited discussion to accuracy and did so on purpose as I do not think there is anyway to prove it is more accurate because set up saw to set up saw there would be no difference especially not as drastic as illustrated above. That is for forum cheering.
I appreciate the help and yes will still consider the Kapex as I am well aware of it's other selling points. Some might be worth the difference. I wish it had more cutting capacity as there is never enough. Let's keep the discussions reasonable and not overdue how great a product is and exaggerate claims. Facts are what sell for me.
Now lets have the Festool faithful pick apart my post.
To the guy with the pic of the moulding you are telling me that the Rigid saw is properly adjusted as it does not appear so in the pic at all. What happened to the edge on the rigid cut? Why is one side shorter then the other? These are the kind of pics that look sensational on a forum but I am a bit lost with how that saw is properly set up. If you said that happened after 5 cuts or you couldn't adjust the Rigid I can somewhat understand. Also what kind of new blade? Although not sure how that effects the mitre?
In my conclusion the Kapex is not any more accurate then a comparable x or y brand. What makes the Kapex a better saw is it's ability to be adjusted and keep its accuracy. So all the throw you saw away untill you need rough cuts is not trully fair. Is it a better built saw, yes probably it is.
If used in a hobby shop where it is pulled out once every couple of months the adjustment issue is a non issue. I do understand how this is not desirable for a daily use contractor. Then again bouncing around to the site would require checking again.
I think the people who are posting these exaggerated claims look silly plain and simple. If someone said it is no more accurate then a properly set up Makita but the other attributes make it worth the extra $700 it is more credible. I know I limited discussion to accuracy and did so on purpose as I do not think there is anyway to prove it is more accurate because set up saw to set up saw there would be no difference especially not as drastic as illustrated above. That is for forum cheering.
I appreciate the help and yes will still consider the Kapex as I am well aware of it's other selling points. Some might be worth the difference. I wish it had more cutting capacity as there is never enough. Let's keep the discussions reasonable and not overdue how great a product is and exaggerate claims. Facts are what sell for me.
Now lets have the Festool faithful pick apart my post.
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campbellcraft said:
Easier to be accurate. The saws features and design promote accurate use.
Twin adjustable lasers that are spot on and reliable. Material clamp - fast, easy, and works great!. Center mount handle vertical handle. All contribute to a clean accurate cut.
Anecdotal to be sure but, from my own usage I have better fitting joints when using the Kapex.
Seth
I would love to say that accuracy is what sold me on the Kapex but it is not. Any tool that can make me money is worth the cost. Right now I am installing crown moulding in a second floor bedroom of a home that is lived in. I am set up in the bedroom, I would not dream of doing it with any other saw. Just the time it saves me running back to the saw the kapex has paid for itself. Oh and it is pouring outside with no place to work under cover not to mention what I would drag back in to the home on my feet!
While the Kapex is accurate what really sold me is the dust collection and the improved work flow by being able to set it up in a home.
While the Kapex is accurate what really sold me is the dust collection and the improved work flow by being able to set it up in a home.
ShawnRussell
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I have found this thread to be be personally very enlightening.
I dislike buying and returning an item. It is a very personal decision for me alone. I know there are costs and expectations involved when a sale is made. I hate having to return something unless it is a production defect. I have never used the Festool 30 day return policy and really do not intend to.
I have read a lot of user's justification for owning/keeping their Kapex that has really pushed me towards wanting one now(there is no need, but very few of Festool purchases are based on need). I am really looking forward to the Festool class so I can have a few hours of hands on experience with the Kapex.
I also see this thread has answered the basic question; is the Kapex more accurate? I surmise that given a skilled and diligent operator who has setup any saw the accuracy is the same. If anything the blade may offer more variance than the saw. I see the following as the secondary data that supports the Kapex:
Weight, if you are moving the saw
Ergonomics in carrying the saw from location to location
Footprint, if you are leaving the saw stationary
Dust collection
Time to setup to your personal level of accuracy
Interval between needing to be resetup
Hold down ability
Blade change speed
Ergonomics and comfort of repeated cuts
Speed of repeated cut based on stops and using the laser for quick sighting
Speed and accuracy of dialing in angle and micro adjustments
Aftermarket accessories
Most of the secondary data is available online in either print format or video evidence. I am not saying the secondary data supports buying a Kapex, but reviewing the data available should give you an indication of a positive or negative. Weight and setup time can be evaluated in store.
Not my thread but thanks to everyone for posting, this has given me a lot of insight.
I dislike buying and returning an item. It is a very personal decision for me alone. I know there are costs and expectations involved when a sale is made. I hate having to return something unless it is a production defect. I have never used the Festool 30 day return policy and really do not intend to.
I have read a lot of user's justification for owning/keeping their Kapex that has really pushed me towards wanting one now(there is no need, but very few of Festool purchases are based on need). I am really looking forward to the Festool class so I can have a few hours of hands on experience with the Kapex.
I also see this thread has answered the basic question; is the Kapex more accurate? I surmise that given a skilled and diligent operator who has setup any saw the accuracy is the same. If anything the blade may offer more variance than the saw. I see the following as the secondary data that supports the Kapex:
Weight, if you are moving the saw
Ergonomics in carrying the saw from location to location
Footprint, if you are leaving the saw stationary
Dust collection
Time to setup to your personal level of accuracy
Interval between needing to be resetup
Hold down ability
Blade change speed
Ergonomics and comfort of repeated cuts
Speed of repeated cut based on stops and using the laser for quick sighting
Speed and accuracy of dialing in angle and micro adjustments
Aftermarket accessories
Most of the secondary data is available online in either print format or video evidence. I am not saying the secondary data supports buying a Kapex, but reviewing the data available should give you an indication of a positive or negative. Weight and setup time can be evaluated in store.
Not my thread but thanks to everyone for posting, this has given me a lot of insight.
ldmillar1981
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- Jul 30, 2012
- Messages
- 157
I have just brought the kapex had it about a week.
It was a long decision for me, about a year, I had a dewalt dw712 and was happy with it, it wasn't the perfect saw but neither is the kapex. The usual bug bares which I knew about are annoying but what the saw does makes up for them.
The only annoyance I have is that the lasers were not accurate out of the box, and I have to send the saw in to fix this, this is free but will still leave me without a saw. I wish the festool rep would be able to do this on a site visit, I know I can do it but i feel this is festools responsibility to correct. I am in the UK i know festool USA have a different set up with thier reps.
The dust extraction with my 27mm hose and ct26 is a world apart from my dewalt, only large chips remain on my drop cloth.
The fine adjustment on the bevel is amazing, having the saw head self supporting makes it so much easier to get my angles spot on, the head on my dewalt was weighty and setting a bevel was annoying, and inaccurate.
The trenching lock on my dewalt use to vibrate loose, I have much more confidence with the kapex staying where I set it.
Regards
Leigh
It was a long decision for me, about a year, I had a dewalt dw712 and was happy with it, it wasn't the perfect saw but neither is the kapex. The usual bug bares which I knew about are annoying but what the saw does makes up for them.
The only annoyance I have is that the lasers were not accurate out of the box, and I have to send the saw in to fix this, this is free but will still leave me without a saw. I wish the festool rep would be able to do this on a site visit, I know I can do it but i feel this is festools responsibility to correct. I am in the UK i know festool USA have a different set up with thier reps.
The dust extraction with my 27mm hose and ct26 is a world apart from my dewalt, only large chips remain on my drop cloth.
The fine adjustment on the bevel is amazing, having the saw head self supporting makes it so much easier to get my angles spot on, the head on my dewalt was weighty and setting a bevel was annoying, and inaccurate.
The trenching lock on my dewalt use to vibrate loose, I have much more confidence with the kapex staying where I set it.
Regards
Leigh
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2007
- Messages
- 8,426
Leigh,
The lasers are user adjustable. Some guys like the laser to bisect the line, others on the inside or outside of the line. Personal preference really.
I have read other posts there customers have needed or wanted to adjust their lasers. You can peel back the label on the side (or poke holes through it) to make the adjustments quite easily.
As for it not being to your liking or accurate out of the box, things get tossed around in shipping and that may have knocked the lasers out of alignment. Not meant as an excuse, but a possible explanation.
I've not heard of any of our guys on the ground dialing in lasers for customers and it's not something that's a standard service as far as I know here in the US/Canada.
Shane
The lasers are user adjustable. Some guys like the laser to bisect the line, others on the inside or outside of the line. Personal preference really.
I have read other posts there customers have needed or wanted to adjust their lasers. You can peel back the label on the side (or poke holes through it) to make the adjustments quite easily.
As for it not being to your liking or accurate out of the box, things get tossed around in shipping and that may have knocked the lasers out of alignment. Not meant as an excuse, but a possible explanation.
I've not heard of any of our guys on the ground dialing in lasers for customers and it's not something that's a standard service as far as I know here in the US/Canada.
Shane
I bought my kapex in a quest for the smoothest (vibration free) cut I could get on a portable saw. I have used many miter saws through the years and some run smoother than others and all made accurate cuts if accurately adjusted. After all, 90.0 degrees is 90.0 degrees whether a kapex or a b&d firestorm. If its 90.0 it doesn't get "more 90.0er" just because the price of the saw goes up.
My specific use of the kapex is cutting wilsonart permaedge (or kuehn bevel) and real accuracy comes down to .oo1" or less and any vibration or other inaccuracies will be readily visible on the finished product. I've found that I can adjust the speed dial on the kapex while its free spinning and get it almost totally vibration free and this translates to really good accurate cuts.
Any saw that you trigger and feel vibration in the handle will not cut to this level of accuracy even if it cuts a perfect 90.0 degrees.
My specific use of the kapex is cutting wilsonart permaedge (or kuehn bevel) and real accuracy comes down to .oo1" or less and any vibration or other inaccuracies will be readily visible on the finished product. I've found that I can adjust the speed dial on the kapex while its free spinning and get it almost totally vibration free and this translates to really good accurate cuts.
Any saw that you trigger and feel vibration in the handle will not cut to this level of accuracy even if it cuts a perfect 90.0 degrees.
Holzhacker
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I'm going to rant here a bit because I get annoyed by the whole accuracy debate. I hear some guy whining about a tool not being accurate enough and its time for him to learn how to use his tools or find another jobsite. For those of you who are furniture makers I apologize since I realize extreme accuracy is vital. For carpenters, grow up. For DIY'ers LEARN HOW TO USE YOUR TOOLS. Jobsites don't actually work like those pretty boys on TV shows who can supposedly rehab anything in half an hour.
I grew up using total crap tools until I started spending my own money on tools. You want to learn accuracy? Try cutting trim with a wormdrive. After that the rest is easy.
Is the Kapex more accurate than a cheapo big box store saw? Yes.
Can you make cuts just as good with a cheapo saw as you can a Kapex? Almost. The diffierence being blade wobble, deflection or poor rotation. Beyond that its all up to the user.
The real issue here isn't tool accuracy. The issue is user accuracy. Who cares where the stupid laser is if you don't know where that laser is in relation to your pencil mark or stop setting. Practice with your tool, whatever the tool is. When you set that blade down you should know exactly where it is going to cut based on knowing your saw; not because you bought some super fancy, expensive tool.
Anybody want accuracy without knowing how to use a tool buy a computerized CNC machine.
Buy a Kapex because its light, versatile, good DC, convenient and makes work easier.
There ... now lets see how long it takes the big shots to flag this post.
Oh by the way, my dealer Woodworld in Chicago, unpacked and checked my new Kapex for square and laser alignment for me. Granted I asked because I was short on time, behind on a job and needed to be sure the tool hadn't gotten knocked around during shipping.
Gotta love a great dealer, Thanks Bodie.
I grew up using total crap tools until I started spending my own money on tools. You want to learn accuracy? Try cutting trim with a wormdrive. After that the rest is easy.
Is the Kapex more accurate than a cheapo big box store saw? Yes.
Can you make cuts just as good with a cheapo saw as you can a Kapex? Almost. The diffierence being blade wobble, deflection or poor rotation. Beyond that its all up to the user.
The real issue here isn't tool accuracy. The issue is user accuracy. Who cares where the stupid laser is if you don't know where that laser is in relation to your pencil mark or stop setting. Practice with your tool, whatever the tool is. When you set that blade down you should know exactly where it is going to cut based on knowing your saw; not because you bought some super fancy, expensive tool.
Anybody want accuracy without knowing how to use a tool buy a computerized CNC machine.
Buy a Kapex because its light, versatile, good DC, convenient and makes work easier.
There ... now lets see how long it takes the big shots to flag this post.
Oh by the way, my dealer Woodworld in Chicago, unpacked and checked my new Kapex for square and laser alignment for me. Granted I asked because I was short on time, behind on a job and needed to be sure the tool hadn't gotten knocked around during shipping.
Gotta love a great dealer, Thanks Bodie.
ldmillar1981
Member
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- Jul 30, 2012
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- 157
Shane Holland said:
Thanks Shane,
They are some 3mm from the blade, on both sides, I know festool will fix this, my rep is very good, and he has been very helpful, just annoying for me. After a major purchase to send it back. I will download a copy of ricks supplemental manual and see whats involved.
Regards
Leigh
Holzhacker said:
Agree with everything here except, perhaps, the CNC comment. Even here, I get the point. Some years ago we had a certain CNC brand machine and a competitor bought the same machine to run the same parts we were making. He was not happy because the cycle time was too long. The machine salesman asked me about our cycle time and we were running twice as many parts in half of the same cycle he was complaining about, with no quality issues to boot. How? Gotta know your tools no matter what kind they are.
Kev
Member
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- Nov 7, 2011
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- 7,698
I don't normally comment on a thread skewing off track as I'm often guilty of causing it ... but this thread has gone from a discussion about KAPEX precision of cut to skills bashing - bad form [mad]
Not everyone that derives pleasure or income from working with wood needs to grow up on the rough side of town, learning to make dovetails with an axe!
The precision of a tool can have a dramatic impact on results ... time, material costs, etc, etc. Yes, a skilled craftsman will probably get a better result with a poor quality tool than a novice and a season professional will know when tolerances are critical and when there's room for play ...
I know with my combination of KAPEX + UG car and extensions I can wheel the kit out of the garage, deploy, set stops and angles and get a dimensionally identical result every time. I couldn't do that with my Hitachi as I'd need to check calibration and perform test cuts.
To me, this equates to confidence in the precision of the tool.
A watch is a brilliant example of precision along with many other potential attributes. The wealthy guy sitting on his launch probably doesn't need the precision of a ROLEX to figure out it's time for cocktails ... a plastic Casio will do the job. Let's not forget the pleasure people can get from having and using nice things - regardless of their skill level.
Not everyone that derives pleasure or income from working with wood needs to grow up on the rough side of town, learning to make dovetails with an axe!
The precision of a tool can have a dramatic impact on results ... time, material costs, etc, etc. Yes, a skilled craftsman will probably get a better result with a poor quality tool than a novice and a season professional will know when tolerances are critical and when there's room for play ...
I know with my combination of KAPEX + UG car and extensions I can wheel the kit out of the garage, deploy, set stops and angles and get a dimensionally identical result every time. I couldn't do that with my Hitachi as I'd need to check calibration and perform test cuts.
To me, this equates to confidence in the precision of the tool.
A watch is a brilliant example of precision along with many other potential attributes. The wealthy guy sitting on his launch probably doesn't need the precision of a ROLEX to figure out it's time for cocktails ... a plastic Casio will do the job. Let's not forget the pleasure people can get from having and using nice things - regardless of their skill level.
Stephen B
Member
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- May 6, 2013
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- 2,749
The more recent comments by members such as Kev, Holzhacker and Laminater have provided some personal reflection of my experiences and as to why do I enjoy using Festool tools.
Most members if they knew me would describe me as a DIY enthusiast, [after all I spent over thirty years in education], although I am working towards the completion of a large owner build house and renovation of another.
I find the use of a relatively precision built tool [and not always Festool] does allow me to lift my bar in skills and results. Am I being fooled by the 'brand name' and its reputation? Or is my growing experience really enriched by the pleasure in using a tool which in most cases is of excellent design and construction?
When I was around ten my grandfather a boat builder, and father a carpenter, enlisted my help in hand sanding one of three Japanese Oak kitchen table tops. After a long day and down to grade 00, my grandfather rubbed his hands across my work and quietly but directly said " keep going laddy". [probably why I followed my mother's career path!.]
Every time I use one of my Festool sanders I remember that experience. So I stop frequently to feel the surface with my finger tips and look with my eyes. And I still have some hand sanding blocks.
My point to all this, experience makes us better and learning from others either at work, at a friend's workshop, or reading resources such as FOG enriches our knowledge. However, having great tools makes for a less frustrating and consequently more enjoyable time and experience [however despite all this, 'stuff' can still happen!].
So will a Kapex by itself make you a better and accurate crafts person ? Probably not.
But you might just enjoy using it and therefore be more productive. It's up to you.
Disclaimer: I dot not yet have a Kapex. Funds and trusty Makita will not die.
Most members if they knew me would describe me as a DIY enthusiast, [after all I spent over thirty years in education], although I am working towards the completion of a large owner build house and renovation of another.
I find the use of a relatively precision built tool [and not always Festool] does allow me to lift my bar in skills and results. Am I being fooled by the 'brand name' and its reputation? Or is my growing experience really enriched by the pleasure in using a tool which in most cases is of excellent design and construction?
When I was around ten my grandfather a boat builder, and father a carpenter, enlisted my help in hand sanding one of three Japanese Oak kitchen table tops. After a long day and down to grade 00, my grandfather rubbed his hands across my work and quietly but directly said " keep going laddy". [probably why I followed my mother's career path!.]
Every time I use one of my Festool sanders I remember that experience. So I stop frequently to feel the surface with my finger tips and look with my eyes. And I still have some hand sanding blocks.
My point to all this, experience makes us better and learning from others either at work, at a friend's workshop, or reading resources such as FOG enriches our knowledge. However, having great tools makes for a less frustrating and consequently more enjoyable time and experience [however despite all this, 'stuff' can still happen!].
So will a Kapex by itself make you a better and accurate crafts person ? Probably not.
But you might just enjoy using it and therefore be more productive. It's up to you.
Disclaimer: I dot not yet have a Kapex. Funds and trusty Makita will not die.
