Kapex tear out issues... Frustrated and disapppointed with Festool

[mark60]

I'm still pretty new here but I can tell you that without a doubt the folks here will get you squared away. Shane and the group on this forum make a habit of going out of their way to educate and problem solve.
I'm also hoping you'll be around a while, share some projects, and maybe delve into your username a little in the future.

 

[Audiophile20]

The photo---Was the piece slide cut or chop cut?

I have some hard maple here and a "stock" Kapex, I don't remember ever having tear out like that. I'll cut a piece the way you did and post a picture of the cut.

Tom

Tom, Good question.  This is a slide cut.  I have tried on pieces wider and still the same effect.  Could this be operator error (I will happily accept that if I can only fix it!).

The saw speed is set to 6 (max.) at least that is what I do with all my other saws and no issues.  Again I can do something different?

 

[Audiophile20]

I'm going to lean the other way and say the blade needs to be broken in a little before it will make satisfactory cuts.

However, there are far too many variables, like - how hard you're pushing, the speed of the blade, grain direction and density of the wood, how firmly the piece is being held down, the alignment of the moon to Saturn's......... you get my point.

I think you need to practice a little more with that saw. Most every time I've seen an issue like this, the solution is based around  changing the input variables, i.e. your technique, add a backer, clean up the cut with a second pass, etc etc.

But having said all that, I think in the photo what you see there is not that big a deal - I mean you will sand the piece later, right? Those planer/jointer marks are a bigger deal than that little bit of fuzz you have there.

I'm a professional working on multi-million $$ homes and have had a Kapex for 5 years. Also owned Makita's and DeWalts, and it for sure kicks the Dewalt's butt all day long

All the best,

Agreed on all points.  I will check my feed rate.  Always open to suggestions.  This is a finished cut on a picture frame, with this much tare out could be a problem for me.  I am hoping that I do not have to do a rough cut and them move to another tool for a finished cut.  With all due respect sanding is not the way I want to go on the edges.

 

[MGB]

I cannot imagine that tear out having anything to do with the saw.

While your blade is not dull, it likely has lost a bit of its edge. Which doesn't help the fact that the kapex comes with a -5* rake 60 tooth. Which surely is a great blade, but for your specific problem it's likely the difference between your kapex and dewalt.

For furniture quality cuts you use a zero-clearance backer. The only saw I know of that has provisions for this is the hitachi c10fsh. But it's quickly ruined as soon as the blade catches a peice of scrap.

Find a Hi-Atb blade with a 10* rake like the tenryu if you want your best chance of avoiding tearout without a zero clearance backer.

I really think you'd see a notable difference in cut quality.

Just for the heck of it what type of blade does your dewalt have? Can you post the model # or spec's on it?

 

[Woodchippie]

i haven't got a Kapex, I have a couple of Bosch Saws. But the amount of break out your picture shows, it's like the blade is the wrong way round?

 

[nerfball]

I'm going to lean the other way and say the blade needs to be broken in a little before it will make satisfactory cuts.

However, there are far too many variables, like - how hard you're pushing, the speed of the blade, grain direction and density of the wood, how firmly the piece is being held down, the alignment of the moon to Saturn's......... you get my point.

I think you need to practice a little more with that saw. Most every time I've seen an issue like this, the solution is based around  changing the input variables, i.e. your technique, add a backer, clean up the cut with a second pass, etc etc.

But having said all that, I think in the photo what you see there is not that big a deal - I mean you will sand the piece later, right? Those planer/jointer marks are a bigger deal than that little bit of fuzz you have there.

I'm a professional working on multi-million $$ homes and have had a Kapex for 5 years. Also owned Makita's and DeWalts, and it for sure kicks the Dewalt's butt all day long

All the best,

Agreed on all points.  I will check my feed rate.  Always open to suggestions.  This is a finished cut on a picture frame, with this much tare out could be a problem for me.  I am hoping that I do not have to do a rough cut and them move to another tool for a finished cut.  With all due respect sanding is not the way I want to go on the edges.

If you do a rough cut/finish cut you don't need to move to another tool - just move your piece in to the bad ¼ of a mm and make the cut. This sometimes works for troublesome wood like maple.

Again, if you sand out the chatter from the planer there you will sand off the fuzz and all appearance of tearout will go away.

Like most folks here I think if you put a backer there your problem will be solved.

 

[Peter Durand]

All- My apologies, I still have the saw. While I very much appreciate the offer from the dealer to take the saw back, I rather like the dust collection.  So I am holing on to it.  Sorry for the confusion.  Updated my post now - hopefully this is clear.

Shane- Thanks for the post.  Will ring you tomorrow.

As to calling Germany from NA, no worries. I can do that and have done that.  Just to add I have done business around the world.  So I can work globally thanks  [smile]  Agreed I did open the door for the sarcasm.

As to the blade quality - let me please clarify,  this is a new blade.  I have cut about 30mins worth, so hopefully I don't have to sharpen the blade already.

To clarify, I have only experience with the Kapex I purchased and I have.  All meant to say was the Dewalt does not have tear out issues.

Thanks to you all for the suggestions about the backing board or zero clearance option.  I have one on my table saw and will explore getting one for the Kapex.  What is interesting is this is not listed anywhere on the website or the marketing material as something one should think about.  Please note I am spoiled using Festool, as the tools do exactly what they are advertised to do.  This happening with any other brand, I would not complain this much.  My expectation level would be very different.

As to the price, I agree it is expensive.  I have now accepted the fact while Festool is expensive, dust collection/accuracy/German quality - demands a premium.  I am good with that; I just wish my experience with Kapex would continued that trend.  I am just disappointed.

Given this is an issue, can't Festool just make the right accessory to get this fixed?  The fact I have to make pieces to fix this is what is bugging me.

I will build backing fence, and report back.

For what its worth, here is my aux fence. And I can still use the hold down clamps

 

[waho6o9]

[attachimg=1]

Maybe make something like this?

Peter Durands' solution is a cleaner method IMHO.

 

[andy5405]

I'd echo what everyone else has said. It highly unlikely be the fault of the saw and is probably the blade and a bit of technique. One blade can't be expected to work well with all timber, it just won't happen. I don't own a Kapex but with my TS I wouldn't expect one blade to work well with all materials, which is why I have several. Also it's unusual to hear anyone complaining about Festool USA customer service.

 

[jamanjeval]

...
Things to consider:
1. I did not want to post in public and make a big deal about this and was hoping to get this resolved offline.  But sadly all I am being told is deal with it.  I see no alternative to posting and making this public.  Contrary to all the good customer service posts here, I want to make the case that Festool is now a big company in the US now and their customer service is suffering but their MARKETING is thriving.  Maybe there are some people at Festool who still care about customers ... but I am yet to meet them.
...
After the purchase:  Significant tear out on cuts and frustration as Festool is unable to do anything and has suggested maybe the wood I am using is the problem!  maybe the wood is too dry!!!  Seriously?  When the same piece of wood cut with my Dewalt has no tear outs.
...

Or, maybe a defect in the wood? There is no way to make the exact same cut on another saw after you have already cut it.

Sometimes we become spoiled by consistencies in modern life. Real materials are not so consistant. To minimize your chance of problems, it is always a good idea to try test cuts. Also, be mindful of situations where you can make the cut in such a way as to hide the tear out if it does happen.

I've cut quarter round without tear out on a 12", $120 harbor freight compound miter saw that still has the blade it came with. And, the same blade has been used to cut aluminum. I wouldn't be so quick to blame the tool.

In my experience many problems, including the ones I make, come down to operator error. Some assumption was made that doesn't hold (like a backing board isn't necessary) It is easy to get mad at the tool, but that doesn't solve anything even if it is not your fault. First step, is to calm down and don't get so emotional. I'm not scolding you, but you seem to have gotten a bit worked up about this when you start saying that Festool is somehow against you can't find someone that cares. You take an increased risk of self injury or hurting others when working around power tools angry.

 

[WoodWhisperer]

I experienced some tear out too. I replaced the blade with an 80T Tenryu miter pro.  It's worth it's weight in gold!  I haven't tried the festool 80T but I'm sure it's a better cut than the 60T.

Good luck!

 

[Grasshopper]

I cut maple all night on my kapex. Probably 25% off he cuts produced some tearout on the back. I just wipe off the fuzz with my hands and move on.

If I really slow down the cut it nearly goes away. I'm certain that a zero clearance sacrificial fence would take it away.

I'm pleased every time I see the dust collection as I make cuts in a spare bedroom.

 

[Scorpion]

Tear out happens when the pressure of the blade/teeth pushes the material away instead of the teeth cutting it.  Slowing the speed or increasing the tooth count with the same speed effectively decreases the pressure which will reduce blow out.  Backing the material to support the cut (as noted by others) works well but one can also accomplish the same thing by changing the process.  I do not yet have a Kepex (I am an abomination) but when I cut trim pieces on my MFT3 I plunge/nick the back side of the material and then cut the other 90% normally from the front. Tear out is near completely eliminated because the blade pressure direction is now down into the work piece which is supported by the sacrificial work surface of the MFT.  Similarly the old radial arm saws worked well because the pressure direction was supported by the sacrificial table. 

Considering the above information, and depending on blade orientation of the Kapex in relationship to the fence/work piece, I'd bet tear out would be greatly reduced by simply plunge cutting without using the telescoping feature of the Kapex.

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Just an update from my end...

I did not hear from the OP yesterday.

Shane

 

[deepcreek]

I use the 60 tooth blade and get a little tear out from time to time depending on what I'm cutting and how long since the blade has been sharpened.  Nothing like the OP has shown.  I keep a sanding sponge next to the saw and with one swipe, the tear out is gone.

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Just a quick follow up...

I just received a call from the OP. We will get the saw into the service center to have a look at it. He will be including some samples of his material so we can observe what's going on and diagnose any potential issues.

Shane

 

[DanielOB]

Put a piece of wood under the working one. This will act as a splinter guard on jig-saw. This is a standard.

 

[Dan Clark]

I experienced some tear out too. I replaced the blade with an 80T Tenryu miter pro.  It's worth it's weight in gold!  I haven't tried the festool 80T but I'm sure it's a better cut than the 60T.

Good luck!

+1 on the Tenryu Miter Pro.  I ran a structured test using the four blades that I had for my Kapex: http://www.talkfestool.com/vb/festool-reviews/2836-kapex-saw-blade-review.html .  The Tenryu was the best blade by a decent margin.  Next was the Forrest ChopMaster 80T and then the Festool 60T.  The Festool 80T was dead last.

Currently my general purpose blade is the Festool 60T.  It's got minimal tearout and a great all-around blade.  For fine work, my go-to blade is the Tenryu Miter Pro.  I still have them but I haven't used the other blades in years.

For the best cut, I use a ZC plate and a backing board.  Rather than all of this discussion, simply clamp a thin backing board to the fence and clamp a temporary board on the top of the Kapex as a ZC.  Adjust blade height to cut through the temporary boards and then cut your maple.  That should take about 10 minutes and will quickly show if the issue is resolved or it's some other Kapex problem. 

If that doesn't solve the problem, Festool service is excellent.  They WILL take care of you.

Dan.

 

[Joe Jensen]

I don't own a Kapex or even a chop saw. I do have a 14" dewalt radial arm saw and the tooth marks in your pic suggest a heel adjustment problem.  The teeth of the blade hit the wood when the blade exits at a slightly different position than when the blade entered.  Does the Kapex have adjustment for heel?  The blade must be in exactly the same plane as the rails.  Heel adjustment allows you to correct that alignment. 

If the saw does not have that adjustment then it's machined wrong and needs to be replaced

Here is a link to a radial arm saw example
http://www.instructables.com/id/Setting-Up-a-Radial-Arm-Saw/step13/Check-for-heel/

 

[fshanno]

The OP and I are worlds apart when it comes to expectations.  I got my Kapex because it makes squarer cuts than any other SCMS in the world.  And by that I mean square and straight across the whole length of it's cut.  Also important to me was it's light weight and easy luggability (is that a word?).  And because it has decent dust collection and you can set it up close to the wall.  When I took it out of the box it got about the same tear out I was experiencing with a Freud 60T in my Rigid miter saw.  For me that was fine.