kapex & ts55 up in smoke

[TylerC]

It looks like it might be an issue with the power source, but I'm discussing all of this with our service department to see if they have any insight.

 

[GarryMartin]

I really don't want to cast doubt on the person suffering issues ... but ... it seems to be a common pattern of late for a person to come onto the FOG and tell us about multiple Festool failures.

Whilst I agree 100% with the statement, there are some very long term, well respected members that have had Kapex 110V issues. I assume at least some of these must be making their way back to Festool, and there must be some sort of root cause analysis undertaken if they are not an insignificant percentage of units shipped, so I'd like to see some sort of statement.

But for people who genuinely come here to look for advice and guidance after suffering issues, or even just to vent, I suggest all they need to do to ensure we can trust that they are legitimate users is to take a photo of the tool in question with something green next to it in the photo.

That way we can put all the distrust and uneasiness to one side and do what we do best; help people.

What do you think? Standard operating procedure in future?

[attachimg=1]

 

[Bohdan]

Halfing the volts does not double the heat rise.

The heating power is calculated as Current X Current X Resistance of the wire. When you halve the voltage you double the current for the same motor power.

You then double the wire cross section to handle the heavier current which halves the resistance. This gives you 2x Current X 2x Current X 1/2x Resistance which equals 2. Exactly doubling the heating effect. This would only be significant if the tool is used at max power consistently.

When you design a 110v motor from scratch you would want to increase the wire cross section even more to limit this effect but the max size of the wire is already fixed by the 230v design and there is generally no extra room in the armature.

By the way this is assuming that the Festool designers didn't allow for NA voltage peculiarity when they initially designed the tools but it appears that only the 110v ones blow up.

 

[Grasshopper]

Garry,

I'd be concerned about requiring a photo upload out the gate as it would eliminate good users too.

Many forums I've been apart of take a different approach: 

New users (with say less than 10 or 20 posts) simply couldn't begin a new thread. They were limited to reply to threads. I also assume their first 10-20 posts had to be approved by a moderator to ensure they weren't spammy, etc.

I'm actually surprised at how "open" the FOG is. (I'm also very pleased/surprised) at how little folks seem to abuse this forum or post irrelevant/spammy/inappropriate stuff.

Overall the FOG is an amazing place!

I could see restricting the first 10-20 posts limited to moderated replies, I'd bet a lot of this would be cut down.

I sincerely feel for those having tool issues, but I think they'd be better served calling festool first, and then coming here if their issue isn't resolved.

My two cents.

I really don't want to cast doubt on the person suffering issues ... but ... it seems to be a common pattern of late for a person to come onto the FOG and tell us about multiple Festool failures.

Whilst I agree 100% with the statement, there are some very long term, well respected members that have had Kapex 110V issues. I assume at least some of these must be making their way back to Festool, and there must be some sort of root cause analysis undertaken if they are not an insignificant percentage of units shipped, so I'd like to see some sort of statement.

But for people who genuinely come here to look for advice and guidance after suffering issues, or even just to vent, I suggest all they need to do to ensure we can trust that they are legitimate users is to take a photo of the tool in question with something green next to it in the photo.

That way we can put all the distrust and uneasiness to one side and do what we do best; help people.

What do you think? Standard operating procedure in future?

[attachimg=1]

 

[GarryMartin]

I'd be concerned about requiring a photo upload out the gate as it would eliminate good users too.

Good point. Come to think of it, I don't think new users or users with low numbers of posts can post photos anyway. Back to the drawing board...

 

[TylerC]

Back to the topic at hand, here are two things that you'll want to look at:

1.    The issue with the routers.
They both have multiple material control that controls the RPM of the router depending on the bit size, material and feed rate.  The adjustment of the rpm’s is not noticeable until the router engages the material. You will not notice a change of the RPM’s until the router is under load.

2.    The RO 90
This could be from the brushes sticking.  You can check them yourself or contact the service department for assistance.

Also, you'll want to send in the TS 55 and Kapex to our service department for further inspection.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Halfing the volts does not double the heat rise.

The heating power is calculated as Current X Current X Resistance of the wire. When you halve the voltage you double the current for the same motor power.

You then double the wire cross section to handle the heavier current which halves the resistance. This gives you 2x Current X 2x Current X 1/2x Resistance which equals 2. Exactly doubling the heating effect. This would only be significant if the tool is used at max power consistently.

When you design a 110v motor from scratch you would want to increase the wire cross section even more to limit this effect but the max size of the wire is already fixed by the 230v design and there is generally no extra room in the armature.

By the way this is assuming that the Festool designers didn't allow for NA voltage peculiarity when they initially designed the tools but it appears that only the 110v ones blow up.

It's not a dual voltage motor.

It's also not 110V. 

 

[Doug S]

My 240v UK model Kapex burnt out after 18 months, only used by me mainly in workshop.

Its now nearly 4 years old and I cross my fingers every time I make a cut.

Doug

 

[KolinP]

(....) I suggest all they need to do to ensure we can trust that they are legitimate users is to take a photo of the tool in question with something green next to it in the photo.

Hello Garry,
I see that you'd have second thoughts about asking for accompanying photos on 'early posters' ... but why would you have asked for something green to be included in the photo besides the Festool item itself?
Ta.
Colin P.

 

[GarryMartin]

... but why would you have asked for something green to be included in the photo besides the Festool item itself?

So that someone didn't just pull a photo off the Internet from somewhere and claim it to be their own. I suppose a piece of paper with their username written on it or similar would have served the same purpose. That sort of thing.

 

[Holmz]

Garry,

I'd be concerned about requiring a photo upload out the gate as it would eliminate good users too.

Many forums I've been apart of take a different approach: 

New users (with say less than 10 or 20 posts) simply couldn't begin a new thread. They were limited to reply to threads. I also assume their first 10-20 posts had to be approved by a moderator to ensure they weren't spammy, etc.

I'm actually surprised at how "open" the FOG is. (I'm also very pleased/surprised) at how little folks seem to abuse this forum or post irrelevant/spammy/inappropriate stuff.

Overall the FOG is an amazing place!

I could see restricting the first 10-20 posts limited to moderated replies, I'd bet a lot of this would be cut down.

I sincerely feel for those having tool issues, but I think they'd be better served calling festool first, and then coming here if their issue isn't resolved.

My two cents.

I really don't want to cast doubt on the person suffering issues ... but ... it seems to be a common pattern of late for a person to come onto the FOG and tell us about multiple Festool failures.

Whilst I agree 100% with the statement, there are some very long term, well respected members that have had Kapex 110V issues. I assume at least some of these must be making their way back to Festool, and there must be some sort of root cause analysis undertaken if they are not an insignificant percentage of units shipped, so I'd like to see some sort of statement.

But for people who genuinely come here to look for advice and guidance after suffering issues, or even just to vent, I suggest all they need to do to ensure we can trust that they are legitimate users is to take a photo of the tool in question with something green next to it in the photo.

That way we can put all the distrust and uneasiness to one side and do what we do best; help people.

What do you think? Standard operating procedure in future?

[attachimg=1]

Claiming that these posts are fictitious and from illegitimate people seems tending towards denial.

Halfing the volts does not double the heat rise.

The heating power is calculated as Current X Current X Resistance of the wire. When you halve the voltage you double the current for the same motor power.

You then double the wire cross section to handle the heavier current which halves the resistance. This gives you 2x Current X 2x Current X 1/2x Resistance which equals 2. Exactly doubling the heating effect. This would only be significant if the tool is used at max power consistently.

When you design a 110v motor from scratch you would want to increase the wire cross section even more to limit this effect but the max size of the wire is already fixed by the 230v design and there is generally no extra room in the armature.

By the way this is assuming that the Festool designers didn't allow for NA voltage peculiarity when they initially designed the tools but it appears that only the 110v ones blow up.

It's not a dual voltage motor.

It's also not 110V.

^Well I know it is not DC.^ So [member=36526]Bohdan[/member] clearly is closer with his estimate of 110v.
Universal motors are not as much dual voltage as they are dual frequency, and it is the frequency that is harder to deal with than the voltage.
 http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/ac_world_volt_freq_list.htm#.VnmujGTRJBc

Why do people refer to 220v (or 221v what ever it takes), instead of 240v?
Almost no one says 115v or 117v. It is 120v or less common is 110v.
Japan is 100v.
Pretty much the rest of the world is on 220 or 240, which collapsed into a de-facto standard os 230v.

Any way I look at whether it is 240v/120v or 230v/117v or 220v/110v I get that the current need to pretty much double.

I do not know if that is the problem if the equipment, nor do I know how many units fail or the percentage of failure. Maybe we only hear of 110v units because the French, Spanish, Germany, and Polish speakers are on Eu forums ??

 

[KolinP]

... but why would you have asked for something green to be included in the photo besides the Festool item itself?

So that someone didn't just pull a photo off the Internet from somewhere and claim it to be their own. I suppose a piece of paper with their username written on it or similar would have served the same purpose. That sort of thing.

Ah! A very good point!
Gottit, thanks.

 

[GarryMartin]

Claiming that these posts are fictitious and from illegitimate people seems tending towards denial.

[member=40772]Holmz[/member] not my intention at all. I'm merely trying to find a way to give new forum members that are legitimately coming here for advice or in an attempt to understand what is happening a way to cut through the suspicion that sometimes accompanies these sort of posts.

In my own words, so that we can get back to "what we do best; help people".

 

[Wuffles]

... but why would you have asked for something green to be included in the photo besides the Festool item itself?

So that someone didn't just pull a photo off the Internet from somewhere and claim it to be their own. I suppose a piece of paper with their username written on it or similar would have served the same purpose. That sort of thing.

Ah! A very good point!
Gottit, thanks.

A bit like they do for the Nigerian 419 scammers over onhttp://forum.419eater.com/forum/album.php

"How do I know you are the Prince of , please send me a photo of you dressed in or holding a to prove I am dealing with a real Prince".

 

[Holmz]

[member=11629]GarryMartin[/member] - yep (apologies) I probably reacted as I seem to see it a lot.
And my helping is not always as helpful as it could be.

The electric nuance is a bit of a complex situation which gets more complicated as the tools get more complicated.

 

[peter halle]

It is sad that we (and I include myself in the group) do indeed have suspicions at times based on what is posted.  Posters in this section actually have a blue box pop up asking that they contact Festool directly first about their concerns.  That is usually the most efficient way to handle issues and could make a perceived tool problem that turned out to be a misunderstanding a private matter rather than to have it spread out all over the Internet and then possibly turn out to be an embarrassment.

Let's take for example the router issues mentioned.  There have been posts in the past about routers not adjusting speeds based on the sounds but they turned out to be ok and just as has been explained; but when I read this thread I sure as heck didn't remember those.  But the guys who service the tools did.  Of course we don't know that is indeed what the issue really is at this point in time, but the response was reasonable and was consistent with previous postings.

Smoke coming out of tools usually means it needs to go back to service and there is nothing we 4as readers here can offer as to the repair.  Everything beyond that is pure rhetoric and conversation and with that comes the suspicions and the rest of the stuff that makes us all cringe or get excited depending on each one's personality.

I hope that the OP gets it all sorted out.

Happy Holidays.

Peter

 

[Bohdan]

In my previous posts I explained how rewinding a 230v motor to 110v might cause more heat but having slept on it now I realize that I was incorrect.

When you double the motor current you also need to halve the number of turns of wire. This would reduce the resistance by half again and the resultant heating would be unchanged.

So my theory as to why 110v motors might fail is invalid.

Sorry for the misdirect.

 

[ghostofhoward]

Well, I'm not a new poster although I seldom visit here. Guess what? I just came in from my shop where I was trying to finish up a pre-christmas order. Except now I cant finish since my Kapex has burned up FOR THE 3RD TIME. I bought it in winter of 2012 and it burned up twice the first year. I've been babying it and waiting for it to happen again. Despite always running it and my CT22 on separate 20 amp circuits it still smoked. Wasn't hot, just started smelling and then ground to a halt.

 

[Holmz]

[member=36526]Bohdan[/member] is the heat caused by the resistance or by magnetic hysteresis or other nuance?
There is 2x the amps if the watts are a product of volts and amps.

Depends whether it is brushes or what exactly lost its smoke.

If it was just magnetic flux then the current would the same 110v or 230v unless the # turns changed.
There is more we do not know that is needed by someone to turn theories into causal mechanisms.

 

[Bohdan]

[member=36526]Bohdan[/member] is the heat caused by the resistance or by magnetic hysteresis or other nuance?
There is 2x the amps if the watts are a product of volts and amps.

Depends whether it is brushes or what exactly lost its smoke.

If it was just magnetic flux then the current would the same 110v or 230v unless the # turns changed.
There is more we do not know that is needed by someone to turn theories into causal mechanisms.

I was referring to the heat caused by the winding resistance. With a 110v motor the current is double but the number of turns is halved to keep the magnetic flux the same. The heat from the magnetic flux in both cases is the same.

There is however another effect, which I can't remember the mathematics of, which relates to the frequency. For a given size motor the higher the frequency, the higher the speed, the more output power can be achieved so therefor more input power is required resulting in more current. This may be the root cause of 60Hz rather than 50Hz motor going up in smoke.

Whatever the cause it appears that the Kapex is not robust enough to always survive in the normal woodworking environment so it begs the question as to whether it should be used for anything other than trim work. It appears to be a brilliant design let down by an under performing motor.