Keeping Festool Prices Stable

Peterm · Apr 5, 2008

dirtydeeds said:
irony peterm....................

i dont even know you

;D

Sorry, I forgot I'm a Gemini; Peterm = 'handymanforhire' on Screwfix.

And Nikao, I'm not bitter about Festool prices - they're pretty much the same, Pound for Euro, as they are in Germany and the rest of mainland Europe - it's just that they are so much cheaper in the US that I can't believe there's so much whining about the 'high' cost of Festools there.

And please folks, don't tar all 'handymen' with the same brush. I served my time as a bench joiner, got sidetracked by another business entirely for 20-odd years, and only came back on the tools in the last 10 years; I wouldn't presume to call myself a joiner after that length of absence, and I enjoy doing a bit of everything to a high standard; good tools make it easier, and help me provide a better service to my clients - I'm currently taking bookings for September, so I guess they agree.

As the old joke goes, a bad workman may blame his tools, but good workmen always have decent kit...

Cheers, Pete

Forrest Anderson · Apr 5, 2008

I personally get very fed up with the constant comparison of UK and USA prices, and all the associated whining. The currency exchange rate is just one factor to consider - the economies of the two countries are different, and there are many other things to take into account. Perhaps the most obvious is that if the average woodworker in the UK slices his hand open, the National Health Service will effectively fix it for free* (no health insurance required), whereas the average woodworker in the USA will end up with a large bill in one way or another.

However, to add some facts to the discussion, here is a table showing the prices of a random collection of power tools in the US and the UK.

Some notes about the table:
1. Prices were taken fromhttp://www.lawson-his.co.uk andhttp://www.toolbarn.com for non-Festool items, and www.festool.co.uk and www.festoolusa.com for Festool items.
2. UK prices include VAT at 17.5%. This can later be reclaimed by tradesmen and companies who are registered for VAT. US prices are as shown on the Toolbarn and Festool USA websites and do not take into account any additional state taxes. Postage/shipping prices are not taken into account in either country.
3. I have tried to compare like-for-like, but it is possible that some packages include a slightly different selection of accessories
4. The exchange rate used is 1.977 USD = 1 GBP.

USA Designation	USA Price in USD	UK Designation	UK Price in GBP	UK price in $	UK price is % more expensive than US
DW718 SCMS	679.00	DW718 SCMS

The table shows that the prices of (selected) Festool kit is 35-66% more expensive in the UK than in the USA, if a straight currency exchange rate is used.

However it also shows that the prices of (selected) DeWalt, Makita, Bosch kit is 47% to 92% more expensive in the UK!

If complaints are being made about the high power tool prices in the UK compared to those in the USA, it seems that Bosch, DeWalt, Hitachi etc should be blamed before Festool!

Forrest

* Of course, UK NHS healthcare isn't totally free, since it is paid for by the taxpayer, but there is no individual bill, except for prescriptions

nickao · Apr 5, 2008

Peterm said:
dirtydeeds said:

irony peterm....................

i dont even know you

;D

Click to expand...

Sorry, I forgot I'm a Gemini; Peterm = 'handymanforhire' on Screwfix.

And Nikao, I'm not bitter about Festool prices - they're pretty much the same, Pound for Euro, as they are in Germany and the rest of mainland Europe - it's just that they are so much cheaper in the US that I can't believe there's so much whining about the 'high' cost of Festools there.

And please folks, don't tar all 'handymen' with the same brush. I served my time as a bench joiner, got sidetracked by another business entirely for 20-odd years, and only came back on the tools in the last 10 years; I wouldn't presume to call myself a joiner after that length of absence, and I enjoy doing a bit of everything to a high standard; good tools make it easier, and help me provide a better service to my clients - I'm currently taking bookings for September, so I guess they agree.

As the old joke goes, a bad workman may blame his tools, but good workmen always have decent kit...

Cheers, Pete

Any handyman for 10.00 an hour is not good(in my experience) Well maybe in 1988. If they were good they would charge at least 25.00 to 35.00. I do not want to demean you at all. But in my experience you get what you pay for. I guy only wanting 10.00 is only going to give you 10.00 an hours worth of work. And that is what he thinks in his own mind is 10.00 worth of work. I got so tired of hearing well I only get 10.00 an hour. I must be an idiot because if I quote some one a job I do my best work even if i lose my a**. I can not hold back depending on what I get paid. I have worked with plenty and that is another reason I got out of working in the field.

I am not talking about bidding the job cheap with the client knowing certain things will not be done for that amount.

I am sure you take pride in your work, you more than likely would not invest in Festools if you didn't. I also think you probably charge more than 10.00 an hour, probably close to 30.00 American. Am I close?

Nickao

Per Swenson · Apr 5, 2008

I forget how regional we are around here.

Like I have said before, I may sell a Bar or two for a 1/4 million.

But I am also not so proud I won't paint your house or rake your lawn.

And no "Handyman" is not a slur by itself. But when used as in any Tom, Dick, or Harry.

So please consider context.

Round here, all you need to be in business is a pick up truck and a ladder.

Per

nickao · Apr 5, 2008

Forrest Anderson said:
I personally get very fed up with the constant comparison of UK and USA prices, and all the associated whining. The currency exchange rate is just one factor to consider - the economies of the two countries are different, and there are many other things to take into account. Perhaps the most obvious is that if the average woodworker in the UK slices his hand open, the National Health Service will effectively fix it for free* (no health insurance required), whereas the average woodworker in the USA will end up with a large bill in one way or another.

However, to add some facts to the discussion, here is a table showing the prices of a random collection of power tools in the US and the UK.

Some notes about the table:
1. Prices were taken fromhttp://www.lawson-his.co.uk andhttp://www.toolbarn.com for non-Festool items, and www.festool.co.uk and www.festoolusa.com for Festool items.
2. UK prices include VAT at 17.5%. This can later be reclaimed by tradesmen and companies who are registered for VAT. US prices are as shown on the Toolbarn and Festool USA websites and do not take into account any additional state taxes. Postage/shipping prices are not taken into account in either country.
3. I have tried to compare like-for-like, but it is possible that some packages include a slightly different selection of accessories
4. The exchange rate used is 1.977 USD = 1 GBP.

USA Designation USA Price in USD UK Designation UK Price in GBP UK price in $ UK price is % more expensive than US
DW718 SCMS 679.00 DW718 SCMS
[td]581.63[/td][td]1149.88[/td][td]69.3[/td]
[tr][td][url=http://www.toolbarn.com/product/dewalt/DW331K/]DW331K Jigsaw [/td][td]169.00[/td][td] DW331K Jigsaw[/td][td]135.07[/td][td]267.03[/td][td]58[/td][/tr]
[tr][td][url=http://www.toolbarn.com/product/bosch/1590EVSK/]Bosch 1590EVSK Jigsaw [/td][td]146.99[/td][td] Bosch GST135BCE Jigsaw[/td][td]134.77[/td][td]266.44[/td][td]81.3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td][url=http://www.toolbarn.com/product/makita/2012NB/]Makita 2012NB Planer [/td][td]445.00[/td][td] Makita 2012NB Thicknesser[/td][td]330.94[/td][td]654.27[/td][td]47[/td][/tr]
[tr][td][url=http://www.toolbarn.com/product/hitachi/M12V2/]Hitachi M12V2 Router [/td][td]199.00[/td][td] Hitachi M12V2 Router[/td][td]193.82[/td][td]383.18[/td][td]92.6[/td][/tr]
[tr][td][url=http://www.toolbarn.com/product/dewalt/DW682K/]DeWalt DW682K Biscuit Joiner [/td][td]189.00[/td][td] DeWalt DW682K Biscuit Joiner[/td][td]164.03[/td][td]324.29[/td][td]71.6[/td][/tr]
[tr][td][url=http://www.toolbarn.com/product/makita/9403/]Makita 9403 belt sander [/td][td]219.00[/td][td] Makita 9403 belt sander[/td][td]187.41[/td][td]370.51[/td][td]69.2[/td][/tr]
[tr][td][url=http://www.festoolusa.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=3&prodid=561097]Festool PS300 Jiigsaw [/td][td]295.00[/td][td] Festool PS300 Jiigsaw[/td][td]217.38[/td][td]429.76[/td][td]45.7[/td][/tr]
[tr][td][url=http://www.festoolusa.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=15&prodid=574258]Festool DF500 Domino [/td][td]750.00[/td][td] Festool DF500 Domino[/td][td]512.30[/td][td]1012.82[/td][td]35[/td][/tr]
[tr][td][url=http://www.festoolusa.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=3&prodid=561174]Festool TS55 and guiderail [/td][td]475.00[/td][td] Festool TS55 and guiderail[/td][td]325.00[/td][td]642.53[/td][td]35.3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td][url=http://www.festoolusa.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=7&prodid=571594]Festool Rotex RO150 Sander [/td][td]475.00[/td][td] Festool Rotex RO150 Sander[/td][td]368.95[/td][td]729.41[/td][td]53.6[/td][/tr]
[tr][td][url=http://www.festoolusa.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=9&prodid=492652]Festool MFT1080 [/td][td]460.00[/td][td] Festool MFT1080[/td][td]386.58[/td][td]764.27[/td][td]66.1[/td][/tr]

The table shows that the prices of (selected) Festool kit is 35-66% more expensive in the UK than in the USA, if a straight currency exchange rate is used.

However it also shows that the prices of (selected) DeWalt, Makita, Bosch kit is 47% to 92% more expensive in the UK!

If complaints are being made about the high power tool prices in the UK compared to those in the USA, it seems that Bosch, DeWalt, Hitachi etc should be blamed before Festool!

Forrest

* Of course, UK NHS healthcare isn't totally free, since it is paid for by the taxpayer, but there is no individual bill, except for prescriptions

Good points Forrest.

It does not change the fact that 460.00 for a sander is still a lot of money here. It's like when I heard my neighbors son had heart damage and needed a transplant. I then said to the mother, "well now I don't feel so bad because Dominick my son had kidney damage and was going to pull through".

Then the mother blew me away with what she said. She said "Nick, just because people have it worse than you doesn't change the fact that you are hurting just as much as them". What a great woman. They are still on a list for a transplant.

So no matter how much cheaper the tools are here, it does not change the fact that the tools are expensive for the people living in the US.

I am am kind of tired of hearing it too. It's Festools fault, not ours. The tools are some of the most expensive tools you can buy here and what they charge somewhere else does not change that fact.

Are you(not you personally, but in the UK in general) making only 400.00 per week American there? I know two guys laid off and that is all they are making right now, rather than sitting at home. They are the only two guys I know that actually pull their Festools to a job site. After taxes, they are starving. So where are the figures that show the relative wages.

If UK workers are really only making 400.00 USD, than yes they are in trouble. I hazard to guess they make at least 1500.00. I may be off base, but I think I may have a valid point.

We can all agree we all pay a lot for Festools and just because the UK pays more does not change the fact. I bet the USA Festools sell more in a month than the UK in a year. That has a lot to do with it.

Respectfully,

nickao

Forrest Anderson · Apr 5, 2008

nickao said:
Are you(not you personally, but in the UK in general) making only 400.00 per week American there? I know two guys laid off and that is all they are making right now, rather than sitting at home. They are the only two guys I know that actually pull their Festools to a job site. After taxes, they are starving. So where are the figures that show the relative wages.

If UK workers are really only making 400.00 USD, than yes they are in trouble. I hazard to guess they make at least 1500.00. I may be off base, but I think I may have a valid point.

Nick

I'm mainly a hobbyist woodworker, so I can't give you first-hand figures from the woodworking/construction trade.

In November 2007, the UK Government's Office of National Statistics produced an article which said:

-----------------------
Median earnings of full-time male employees was 498 GBP (984.55 USD) per week in April 2007; for women the median was 394 GBP (778.94 GBP).

The top 10 per cent of the earnings distribution earned more than 906 GBP (1761.16 USD) per week, while the bottom 10 per cent earned less than 252 GBP (498.20 USD).

Median full-time weekly earnings in London were 581 GBP (1148.64 USD), significantly higher than in other regions, where they ranged from 402 GBP (794.75 USD) in Northern Ireland to 481 GBP (950.94 USD) in the South East.

The occupations with the highest earnings in 2007 were 'Health professionals', (median pay of full-time employees of 1,019 GBP a week (2014.56 USD)), followed by 'Corporate managers' (702 GBP (1387.85 USD)) and 'Science and technology professionals' (670 GBP (1324.59 USD)). The lowest paid of all full-time employees were 'Sales occupations', at 264 GBP (521.93 USD) a week.

Notes:
The median is the value below which 50 per cent of employees fall.
Pay refers to gross pay (before tax) of full-time employees on adult rates whose pay for the survey week was unaffected by absence. Annual and weekly earnings include paid overtime.
-----------------------

(I have added US conversions to these figures at 1.977 dollars to the pound)

The Government has set a National Minimum Wage for most adult non-self-employed workers, which is currently 5.52 GBP per hour gross for people over 22 years old.

Hope that gives you a few figures to think about.

Forrest

nickao · Apr 5, 2008

Forrest Anderson said:
nickao said:

Are you(not you personally, but in the UK in general) making only 400.00 per week American there? I know two guys laid off and that is all they are making right now, rather than sitting at home. They are the only two guys I know that actually pull their Festools to a job site. After taxes, they are starving. So where are the figures that show the relative wages.

If UK workers are really only making 400.00 USD, than yes they are in trouble. I hazard to guess they make at least 1500.00. I may be off base, but I think I may have a valid point.

Click to expand...

Nick

I'm mainly a hobbyist woodworker, so I can't give you first-hand figures from the woodworking/construction trade.

In November 2007, the UK Government's Office of National Statistics produced an article which said:

-----------------------
Median earnings of full-time male employees was 498 GBP (984.55 USD) per week in April 2007; for women the median was 394 GBP (778.94 GBP).

The top 10 per cent of the earnings distribution earned more than 906 GBP (1761.16 USD) per week, while the bottom 10 per cent earned less than 252 GBP (498.20 USD).

Median full-time weekly earnings in London were 581 GBP (1148.64 USD), significantly higher than in other regions, where they ranged from 402 GBP (794.75 USD) in Northern Ireland to 481 GBP (950.94 USD) in the South East.

The occupations with the highest earnings in 2007 were 'Health professionals', (median pay of full-time employees of 1,019 GBP a week (2014.56 USD)), followed by 'Corporate managers' (702 GBP (1387.85 USD)) and 'Science and technology professionals' (670 GBP (1324.59 USD)). The lowest paid of all full-time employees were 'Sales occupations', at 264 GBP (521.93 USD) a week.

Notes:
The median is the value below which 50 per cent of employees fall.
Pay refers to gross pay (before tax) of full-time employees on adult rates whose pay for the survey week was unaffected by absence. Annual and weekly earnings include paid overtime.
-----------------------

(I have added US conversions to these figures at 1.977 dollars to the pound)

The Government has set a National Minimum Wage for most adult non-self-employed workers, which is currently 5.52 GBP per hour gross for people over 22 years old.

Hope that gives you a few figures to think about.

Forrest

Yes, I think those numbers need to be looked at to make true comparisons, along with other things such as what does a 1000.00 get you here vs there etc. Thanks for that.

Nickao

Peterm · Apr 6, 2008

OK, let's see; sensitivity mode set to low, sobriety is on, context fully functioning.

Per, Nikao and Forrest, you're all absolutely right. There's more to it than a straight price (or wage) comparison - though in part it's the 'treasure island' syndrome that all manufacturers seem to adopt with Britain, and on a personal level I'm struggling a little to see how having a cradle-to-grave state healthcare system provided through direct taxation can be used as a legitimate reason for manufacturers to jack up the prices of consumer goods and power tools...

But anyway, I know it's a fact of life that everything costs more here; if it bothered me that much I'd move, and I have no such plans.

Nikao, interesting what you say about wages - as Forrest has pointed out, $10 per hour is less than national minimum wage here; you get what you pay for, and I pay our domestic cleaner more than that. So no, $30 per hour is nowhere near what I charge for my time - it's a lot higher than that.

And just to drag this thread back on topic, whilst I'd appreciate a bit of discount now and then, I think keeping Festool relatively exclusive is a good thing - every single customer of mine comments on how 'smart' my toolbox (systainer stack on a rollboard) is, and how tidy the job is with the extractor; as Per says further up the thread, who do you think they're going to call next time?

Cheers, Pete.

The Woodentop · Apr 6, 2008

Well it's looking pretty even between those who would like BIG discounts and those who, like me, prefer exclusivity. I have seen sides to this question that had previously escaped my attention and I, for one, feel the debate has been enlightening. If I was pressed then I'd say the sane compromise would be to offer points to LOYAL buyers of Festool and then allow small discounts to the most dedicated of Festoolians. By doing this we gain a financial benefit with the more purchasing we do but don't destroy the secondhand value of our tools. Additionally, there would be no benefit to the one time purchaser helping to maintain the exclusive 'club' that we are so privileged to be members of.

Several posters have commented on the impact of the visual aspects of our equipment and on how customers appreciate the neat and efficient way that we can conduct our business on site. This counts for a lot and creates even more opportunity for future work. If these tools were made available through discounting to every Tom, Dick and Harry then one of our USP's (unique selling points) would be diminished.

To be totally fair, my view on this has altered since becoming a member of FOG. It is by reading the views of others over a period that I now hold my current opinion. Showing, once more, the power of this very special place where we Festoolians can come and chew the cud.

More votes please and let's see if we cannot influence Festool (the company) with the wishes of their most loyal customers.

plywood · Apr 6, 2008

This has been an interesting post. I would like to throw out a few reasons why expanding Festool ownership would be better for all of us. My local supplier has a very limited stock of tools and accessories. Most items I want to purchase are always several days away. What happens if you break your domino cross stop while in the middle of a job? Do you want to tell your customer you will be back in a week to finish or would it be better to drive to a local supplier and walk out the same day with one and get back to work? If he sold more items he would increase his inventory. Book publishers and companies like Taunton press will dedicate books and dvds to Festool. No matter how skilled we are we can always learn a lot more. That is what is great about forums like this. Festools are used for more than woodworking. Many people use them in automotive applications, finishing and refinishing furniture, boat building, flooring etc. As more people become festool owners that flow of information will increase and spark even more ideas for us all. There is an old saying in economics that a rising tide floats all boats and I believe we will all benefit with more owners. Thanks to those who make a place like FOG happen so we can all benefit.

dirtydeeds · Apr 6, 2008

forest's statistics dont compare tool costs to a carpenters wage and i choose to buy festool kit, rather than dewalt

forest is not correct about health care in the uk

it IS NOT FREE, we pay for it out of our taxes

im a carpenter, i charge 18.75 gb pounds an hour (i charge more in london)

income tax is 22% and national insurance is 10% = 32% tax

so after tax i earn 12.75 gb pounds an hour the domino costs 512 gh pounds

so to buy a domino i have to work a tad over 40 hours

how does this compare to carpenters in north america

Forrest Anderson · Apr 6, 2008

dirtydeeds said:
forest is not correct about health care in the uk

it IS NOT FREE, we pay for it out of our taxes

Please read the very last line in my original post - the one which says...

* Of course, UK NHS healthcare isn't totally free, since it is paid for by the taxpayer, but there is no individual bill, except for prescriptions

Forrest

dirtydeeds · Apr 6, 2008

understood forest

it will be interesting to hear what tax rates the north americans pay

im sort of expecting their taxes might be lower because they dont have a healthcare system to fund out of the tax

dirtydeeds · Apr 6, 2008

i forgot to say im a self employed carpenter

if i was on the books the pay would be around 25% - 30% less

HOWEVER, they only have to supply hand tools, they are supplied with all their power tools

uk employment law requires the employer to provide "specialist tools" and this effectivly means power tools, even skill saws

Tinker · Apr 6, 2008

This may or may not be relative to this conversation.

When I first started working in the building trades, I made a point to buy the very best shoes I could get. Hermans at that time were $12.oo a pair. I had to work for a whole day and a couple of hours to pay for them. Nearly 40 years later, at time of my retirement from the trades, I was still buying the best shoes I could buy. Timberwolf. I was paying something like 125 per pair and then spending another 40 or 50 to have special full sole lifts put into one shoe to help relieve my back problems. I only had to work for around 2 or 3 hours to pay for the shoes. At the start and at the end, I was going thru 3 pairs per year.

During the same period of time, I found out that when I bought the cheapest tools, I not only accomplished less per hour, but the tools did not last as long. I bought the best and found I could accomplish more and in the long run, the tools cost a whole lot less. My brick trowels, BTW, were British made JTS and WHS. The way those were hung, I could lay about 25% more brick per day than I could do with American made Rose and Marshaltown. I payed about 50% more for those Brit trowels, but when a trowel lasted for several years before I ground them down to be used for special jobs, there was NO comparison to the value they returned.

The same held true for power tools (electric). I gladly paid more for a Milwaukee than for any other brand. Whenever I got foolish and succumbed to the low prices of some of the bighouse brands of the day, I paid the price in sudden obsolescence and time lost from productive endeavores.

Today, I no longer have the same requirements to produce at a moneymaking (construction) pace. I do have my hobby, for which I can devote nowhere near the amount of time that I would like. My time in my WW shop is my bonus for productivity at my outside job. I have continued with the same outlook towards quality for my landscaping tools and machines. I try to buy the best and find that in the long run, I spend far less time in the repair shop and allow myself a few extra hours in my WW shop. To make the best use of my time in the WW shop, my hobby time, I have found the same philosophy comes into play. Good tools mean greater value to time spent. I still look for the best. It pays.

For that, I wait until I can afford a Festool. It pays

Brice Burrell · Apr 6, 2008

dirtydeeds said:
understood forest

it will be interesting to hear what tax rates the north americans pay

im sort of expecting their taxes might be lower because they dont have a healthcare system to fund out of the tax

As far as income tax goes you are wrong, my income tax rate is more than the 32% you pay. Of course we aren't comparing apples to apples.

Tinker · Apr 6, 2008

Way back in the early 50?s as I was just starting my mason contracting biz, a customer asked if I did driveway blacktopping. I did not, but I had just met a friend of a friend who was in that business.

I took him to have a look. I measured up and told the prospective customer the job would be $465.oo.

?Tell me now, ? the owner asked in his most condescending tone, ?Couldn?t you, in your wildest dreams, come up with a price of $400??

?Oh yes, Sir. Absolutely. I will tell you right now that there will be exactly $65 worth of asphault that will NOT be in that driveway.?

He got the job. I learned a valuable lesson and I think the owner was happy with the job.

I prefer to keep dealing with suppliers the same way. If they give me quality, I will pay. If I prefer to haggle, I expect something to be left out somewhere along the way.

Tinker

Woodenfish · Apr 6, 2008

nickao said:
Isn't it nice that all these view points can be discussed and peoples minds can get changed through this discussion. Even if we agree to disagree the dialog is excellent and many politicians could learn something here.

I love this Forum I think I am as addicted to it as the Festools themselves.

Nickao

If a politician whom I voted for were to change his/her mind he/she would be a low-down, dirty-rotten scoundrel.

A politician's job is to persuade others to change their minds to reflect his/her opinion, not vice-versa.

Woodenfish · Apr 6, 2008

Nickao, You put too much thought into my simple statement and seemingly attempting me to change my opinion. I'll stand by what I said earlier.

Festool, like many European companies are at a real price disadvantage right now in the US. That does not mean that Festool needs to start discounting their products in our market. Their products are priced high in every market! They are free to charge whatever they need to and that is the way it ought to be. It's a free market!

The Woodentop · Apr 7, 2008

I have received a request from one of our esteemed posters to open up the voting so that people who have already voted on this topic can change their minds. Following the example of Matthew I am asking for opinions on this before I instigate any changes (move the goal posts).

For what it's worth, I would quite like to leave it the way it is as it shows a snap shot of people's first reactions. Against this, I admit that people who have voted later on may have been influenced by the foregoing argument.

Please let me have your views. It's your FOG.

Keeping Festool Prices Stable

Would you prefer stability in prices or:.....

I would like big discounts

I would like medium discounts

I would like small discounts

I would like very small discounts

I would like no discounting

I would like loyalty points leading to discounts

Peterm

Forrest Anderson

nickao

Per Swenson

nickao

Forrest Anderson

nickao

Peterm

The Woodentop

plywood

dirtydeeds

Forrest Anderson

dirtydeeds

dirtydeeds

Tinker

Brice Burrell

Tinker

Woodenfish

Woodenfish

The Woodentop

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