lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use

[mrFinpgh]

So I'm looking at doing some scraping of paint on an exterior which likely has lead (I haven't tested yet).  Only looking to remove loose stuff, not do a total strip.

I have one of those vacuum friendly scrapers where the handle is hollow and can be hooked up to a vac.  As I have read, these are approved for dry scraping lead based paint.

I have a Fein Turbo w/ a hepa filter which I also use for sanding and drilling dust collection. I usually do general cleanup w/ a rigid vac that has an aftermarket filter.

My plan was to use the Fein vac w/ the vacuum scraper to take off the loose paint and control the dust.  But one thing that I get a little mixed up by is this: if I use the vac for lead, is it now considered 'contaminated' and should be dedicated to that?  Or is it sufficient to keep the filter in, dispose of the bag, and clean the vac off?

Same question would apply, I guess, to a festool sander.  Is it considered 'lead only' if used for lead paint?  Or does it just need to be cleaned?

 

[Rob Z]

Hello

I was an early participant in the EPA  RRP certification program and at that time, the training said "YES" to your various questions about contamination of equipment and thus the need for dedicated lead remediation  tools.  With that said, that was years ago and things might have changed.

 

[mrFinpgh]

Thanks for your response, [member=3208]RobZ[/member]. That's what I've found in some of the RRP literature online.

I'd guess some of the rules are also about reducing liability and perhaps avoiding the chance of someone not cleaning the machine sufficiently if switching uses.

But then,I remember reading elsewhere about a rule that suggested continuing to use the hepa filter for at least 3 vacuum bags of non-lead debris after doing any lead work.  Maybe that was a dream? 

Unfortunately, the paint contractors I've consulted are either 1) affordable but seem to think an attached dust filter on the sander is enough or 2) only interested in doing a full strip, restore, and repaint at a significant premium. 

 

[Rob Z]

I don't recall anything being said about using a HEPA filter for some number of bags after doing lead work.

And my observation was almost all prospective customers wanted nothing to do with the RRP forms or paying for any work that was needed to comply with EPA requirements.  And the local building officials didn't care one bit about any of this, although they did have the EPA boilerplate on permit documents and other official forms. It was enormously frustrating.

I figure I lost a good deal of money, between paying for the training classes (which were a waste of time), HEPA vacs (this was before Festool certified theirs as HEPA), license fees to EPA, etc.

But then,I remember reading elsewhere about a rule that suggested continuing to use the hepa filter for at least 3 vacuum bags of non-lead debris after doing any lead work.

Unfortunately, the paint contractors I've consulted are either 1) affordable but seem to think an attached dust filter on the sander is enough or 2) only interested in doing a full strip, restore, and repaint at a significant premium.

 

[mrFinpgh]

I can't find that information anymore (or maybe i never did?).  I thought it was something to do w/ avoiding spreading residual lead dust after the fact - making sure that someone didn't pull the hepa filter after RRP work and just run the vacuum w/ less filtration.

At any rate, I'm only concerned with this from a safety perspective as it relates to expecting mom or newborn child (and myself, too, as I live there).  I think I'm generally able to discern risk pretty well, but when it comes to the safety of others I am a lot more cautious.

I guess that worst case, I could buy one of those cheaper vacmasters (they claim to be good to go for RRP) and lose it when done (I really don't have room for another vacuum). But it seems like I should be able to deep clean the Fein once done w/ the work and minimize the risk?

 

[Sourwould]

I don't mean to change the subject too much, but the scraper is really the weak link here. I've spent a lot of time behind one and it really doesn't catch that much, especially fine debris.

 

[mrFinpgh]

The vacuum attached one?  I had read they were good.  Didn't know they weren't effective.

 

[Sourwould]

The vacuum attached one?  I had read they were good.  Didn't know they weren't effective.

Yeah, I think the ones we used to use were called viper, but I can't remember. They're great for not having to clean up/handle a bunch of lead paint chips. If you're doing a lot of scraping you will still get covered in dust.

This is just my experience. We used the Fein extractors, which are pretty nice, but after scraping there was always a layer of paint dust on my glasses. I don't know how much lead dust is too much lead dust, but none sounds like the right amount to me. I'm just saying, take all the precautions you would if there wasn't a vacuum attached to the scraper.

 

[mrFinpgh]

That's the same one I have.  I think I'm looking at about 70 sq ft of surface area.  Plan was to follow most RRP recommendations for tarping off the surround area and protecting the soil, covering windows/doors w/ plastic, p100 (I have one set of new filters and one that was used for a couple hours on a mask I bought for my girlfriend) filters, booties, etc. Obviously hepa vac and I usually wipe everything off with a lot of simple green and shop towels before I call it done.

I'm surprised to hear so much dust got away, but then I have only ever dealt w/ stripping paint by chemical methods.  I wanted to avoid that here, as I think it would be difficult to handle the runoff from neutralizing the stripper.  Also, I am not trying to do a complete removal, just a stabilization.

 

[six-point socket II]

Definitely keep pregnant mom/ newborn child as far away from the work area as you can. Instead of just closing the door, get a dust barrier door like ZipWall (or something like it). I'd probably go as far as wearing a full protective body suit and have a designated decontamination area where you get out of it and bag it for disposal. And that area then needs some throughout cleaning, too.

Besides that, I'm trying to get some information on decontamination of HEPA/ L/M/H vacuums. As I think your questions are very interesting, and while there is a lot of information to be had on what not to do/ and how to perform the work - there is literally nothing to be found on how to decontaminate the vacuum/ further use. (We have a similar situation with class H vacuums that are used for removal of asbestos/ materials probably containing asbestos. But also, no word on how to decontaminate/ clean.)

Let me see what I can dig up.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[six-point socket II]

By the way, this is what Festool's operating instructions have to say for Class H vacuums used on asbestos.
(CTH 26 E/a CTH 48 E/a; 717087_E / 2018-05-28) ->https://festoolcdn.azureedge.net/pr...ment/af8ce3e6-4977-11e9-80f9-005056b31774.pdf

[attachimg=1]

Not sure the terminology is the same, so just a heads up:

Contaminated areas are considered "black areas", not contaminated areas are considered "white areas" in German.

Besides that, kinda what I expected in terms of no instructions on cleaning of a contaminated vacuum.

Just in case you're interested, here's an (sadly) outdated english translation of the mentioned TRGS 519 document:
https://www.baua.de/EN/Service/Legi...S/pdf/TRGS-519.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=3

Technical Rules for Hazardous Substances - Asbestos Demolition, reconstruction or maintenance work

The up-to-date German version can be found here, just for reference.
https://www.baua.de/DE/Angebote/Rec...S/pdf/TRGS-519.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=6

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[Sourwould]

That's the same one I have.  I think I'm looking at about 70 sq ft of surface area.  Plan was to follow most RRP recommendations for tarping off the surround area and protecting the soil, covering windows/doors w/ plastic, p100 (I have one set of new filters and one that was used for a couple hours on a mask I bought for my girlfriend) filters, booties, etc. Obviously hepa vac and I usually wipe everything off with a lot of simple green and shop towels before I call it done.

I'm surprised to hear so much dust got away, but then I have only ever dealt w/ stripping paint by chemical methods.  I wanted to avoid that here, as I think it would be difficult to handle the runoff from neutralizing the stripper.  Also, I am not trying to do a complete removal, just a stabilization.

Well, I'll say that you're doing more than the painter I worked for ever did. Sounds like you're geared up and doing everything right.

I understand you're just trying to get the loose stuff. That old oil paint is so hard it just seems to vaporize when you scrape it.

I've never used the stuff, but I believe there are high bond lead blocking primers that don't require you to sand the lead paint.

 

[mrFinpgh]

Definitely keep pregnant mom/ newborn child as far away from the work area as you can. Instead of just closing the door, get a dust barrier door like ZipWall (or something like it). I'd probably go as far as wearing a full protective body suit and have a designated decontamination area where you get out of it and bag it for disposal. And that area then needs some throughout cleaning, too.

Besides that, I'm trying to get some information on decontamination of HEPA/ L/M/H vacuums. As I think your questions are very interesting, and while there is a lot of information to be had on what not to do/ and how to perform the work - there is literally nothing to be found on how to decontaminate the vacuum/ further use. (We have a similar situation with class H vacuums that are used for removal of asbestos/ materials probably containing asbestos. But also, no word on how to decontaminate/ clean.)

Let me see what I can dig up.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Thanks, Oliver, for that information.  I would guess most pros would dedicate a vacuum for this work, but for a homeowner that's a more bitter pill to swallow.

My plan was to essentially cover the entire front of the house (brick walls/windows) with plastic+tape to seal everything off prior to any disturbing of surfaces.  I still need to remove the beadboard ceiling (also probable lead paint, although I have not tested it yet), so it will be a couple very warm weekends for me.  Those tyvek suits are a bear in the heat, especially when wearing a mask.  It's enough to consider just hiring it all out (if I could find a contractor..) and focusing on other work that's more in my area of expertise. 

Well, I'll say that you're doing more than the painter I worked for ever did. Sounds like you're geared up and doing everything right.

I understand you're just trying to get the loose stuff. That old oil paint is so hard it just seems to vaporize when you scrape it.

I've never used the stuff, but I believe there are high bond lead blocking primers that don't require you to sand the lead paint.

I find the hardest part to be the prep work -- cutting and taping plastic everywhere, making sure it's secure and won't fall off.  It takes a long time and it's hard to stay motivated - in this case maybe longer than the actual paint prep.  On the bright side, cleanup does tend to be pretty good.

Are you talking about fiberlock?  That's the only one I'm familiar with.

 

[Rob Z]

mrFinpgh

I know you noted in your first post that no testing had been done yet.  One thing I learned during my time with RRP was that often times there was no lead at all in a property, or at most very little (confined to just the window trim, for example). There was one realtor in particular who was very good about getting her clients to get the testing done before we were called to do work on the property. One figure that sticks in my mind is that testing for a three floor pre-1978 townhouse was a bit over $400.  In that instance the testing resulted in Zero lead detected in the house and the $400 spent was far less than what would have been spent doing all the work under the RRP guidelines.

So, in your case, maybe testing will result in no-lead present at least in some areas and that would greatly reduce your costs and hassles in dealing with this.

 

[aloysius]

Any airborne dusts are nasty & potentially harmful; lead present or no.  Simple, effective PPE & procedures will help protect you & yours.  Use coveralls (dungarees in American?), hair covering, glasses & respirator, or at the very least an appropriately rated mask.  Disrobe out of doors & wash protective clothing separately.  Or use disposables.  Wash hands & face before eating or fag smoking.  An occasional spritz of water on relevant surfaces will assist in reducing the finest, most potentially harmful inhalation of aerosolised dusts.

Your vac won't be "permanently" contaminated.  At least, nothing that a simple filter change, damp-dust or wash inside & vacuuming up a bucket or two of water to rid all hose & vac internals of residues won't preclude.  After which it's business as usual.

 

[Brice Burrell]

At any rate, I'm only concerned with this from a safety perspective as it relates to expecting mom or newborn child (and myself, too, as I live there).  I think I'm generally able to discern risk pretty well, but when it comes to the safety of others I am a lot more cautious.

I'd say your timing for doing this job is terrible. 

mrFinpgh
I know you noted in your first post that no testing had been done yet.  One thing I learned during my time with RRP was that often times there was no lead at all in a property, or at most very little (confined to just the window trim, for example).

Testing can be a double edged sword.  Its nice to know, until you have to legally disclose the presence of lead paint when you go to sell your house. 

 

[mrFinpgh]

mrFinpgh

I know you noted in your first post that no testing had been done yet.  One thing I learned during my time with RRP was that often times there was no lead at all in a property, or at most very little (confined to just the window trim, for example). There was one realtor in particular who was very good about getting her clients to get the testing done before we were called to do work on the property. One figure that sticks in my mind is that testing for a three floor pre-1978 townhouse was a bit over $400.  In that instance the testing resulted in Zero lead detected in the house and the $400 spent was far less than what would have been spent doing all the work under the RRP guidelines.

So, in your case, maybe testing will result in no-lead present at least in some areas and that would greatly reduce your costs and hassles in dealing with this.

I think you're talking about the XRF tests.  I haven't done any of those.. just the leadcheck swabs on the interior (positive in a few spots, negative in others).  As [member=1146]Brice Burrell[/member] mentioned - the downside to getting a formal test done is that I would be obliged to disclose it in the near future.  On the other hand, in this area, I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes.. the city of Pittsburgh is mostly old houses and lead paint is pretty common in a 90 year old house like mine.

I'd say your timing for doing this job is terrible.

Agreed, it isn't a great time.  The alternative is that it gets worse and flakes/alligators/crumbles more... which seems like a worse option to me. You know any paint contractors around town who are able to follow RRP rules?  [smile]

 

[Brice Burrell]

I think you're talking about the XRF tests.  I haven't done any of those.. just the leadcheck swabs on the interior (positive in a few spots, negative in others).  As [member=1146]Brice Burrell[/member] mentioned - the downside to getting a formal test done is that I would be obliged to disclose it in the near future.  On the other hand, in this area, I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes.. the city of Pittsburgh is mostly old houses and lead paint is pretty common in a 90 year old house like mine.

The issue is once the presence of lead paint is documented the perspective buyer(s) can use it as leverage against your price.  If you can honestly say you don't know then they can't.

Agreed, it isn't a great time.  The alternative is that it gets worse and flakes/alligators/crumbles more... which seems like a worse option to me. You know any paint contractors around town who are able to follow RRP rules?  [smile]

I don't know any contractors that kept up with the RRP protocol.

 

[Rob Z]

Hello mrFinpgh

Regarding potential leverage a prospective buyer might have, some of the realtors I dealt with took the approach to get out in front of the problem, have certified testing done, and document the coverage of all lead-containing trim and surfaces  with X coats of primer and paint. Their reasoning was: all these houses have lead in them to some degree, buyers know it, deal with the problem in the appropriate  way and move ahead. I guess their experience was here in my market that buyers aren't going to gain the upper hand because of this.  It could very well be that it is a different situation in your market now.

 

[mrFinpgh]

[member=1146]Brice Burrell[/member] and [member=3208]RobZ[/member] , you both make some very good points.

When I bought this house, the previous owners disclosed nothing, despite it being pretty obvious later on that there were significant issues that needed to be addressed immediately.  Of course, I bear some responsibility as a first-time buyer for not being savvy about the tell-tales of cheap workmanship (like the painted over outlets and light switches).  The visible loose asbestos in the old gas fireplace burners.. I think it should have been noted by either the PO or the home inspector  [unsure].  But even that was only a minimal issue to deal with.  Fortunately, in the last 6 years the value of the neighborhood has gone up a lot, and I've been able to do a lot of work on my own to improve things in this house to raise it's value.

Selling a house can be a challenge, and I think it's common that we all want to maximize our returns and minimize our expenses in order to get ahead in some way. After all, I'm trying to 'upgrade' my living situation and money that is left on the table w/ this house is money I won't have access to for the next one.  But on another level, I think that there is something to be said for certainty - whether it's my own (knowing where I need to be careful) or even the next owners (they will be able to make a more informed decision).  That knowledge can help keep both the residents and contractors working on the house safe in some cases.  It does run some risk of giving the buyer an issue, but I'm not sure how much I'm willing to worry about that when weighed against other ethical/safety considerations (or the possibility of discovering it's not as bad as i think it will be).

Back to the topic at hand, which is 'decontamination' of a hepa vac after using on lead. So far, I can't find much information other than some articles suggesting it is a good idea to have a dedicated vac for lead.  Nilfisk's manuals discuss that a vacuum used in 'an enclosed contaminated area' should be considered contaminated until professionally decontaminated.  There's clear instructions on how to change the bag on a hepa vac during RRP and do an internal/external cleaning, but I guess the concern is that the interior will most likely have some lead dust remaining on the surfaces.

Of course, this raises questions - what does it mean to be contaminated?  I also think about the instructions for vacuuming lead dust with a hepa vac that are provided to homeowners who are not working on anything.  Presumably they continue to vacuum w/ the same vac, right?  And yet, it's feasible that the internals of that vacuum are also contaminated after doing some vacuuming.  At the same time, the whole intent of a 'full hepa' system is that the internal stuff doesn't make it's way out.  So, it's a bit confusing for me.

I could certainly buy a dedicated lead vac, but it would be good to know if that's necessary.  Also, I've done a lot of 'cleanup' of various substances with this one already, in addition to using the drilling dust collector for walls and ceilings that have all sorts of questionable substances in and on them.  It would be nice to know if that was a bad idea.