Let's talk drills/drivers

[Paul G]

If this were universally accepted, Harbor Freight would rule the tool market. 

They do have over 800 stores plus online and I see a lot of their stuff at estate sales. Maybe more market penetration than you think, just saying.

 

[Cheese]

I guess the place to start is to identify those specific qualities you need from a drill and then ascertain which drill will provide them.

I own both Festool and Milwaukee drills.

The outstanding traits that Festool drills provide:
The CXS is my favorite small format drill...bar none.
The C 15/18 has the best torque limiting/control system, it's electronic...no more slipping clutches which just wear out and are annoying to listen to all day long.
The Festool drills provide the best right angle or limited space drilling flexibility.

After that, Milwaukee has all the rest of the bases thoroughly covered.
Issues such as warranty, initial price, battery cost, availability, power and that goofy Centrotec thing are better with the Milwaukee offering...specifically their 18 volt line.

And then there's the issue of ergonomics.

 

[Holmz]

I work in an aerospace manufacturing plant. I'm the supply chain manager and get final say on many things. I've spent nearly $1000usd over the last 6 months or so on dewalt, Makita and Milwaukee drills/drivers. I now have told my production guys I'm buying a (or multiple) festool. The amount of work I'd say needed would rival that of a low-moderate hobby shop. We are talking about drilling through composite material about 1" thick(ish). This would be for "one offs" as the main milling/drilling is done with different tools/applications. Also, these would be used for general shop tasks.

Also, I've been keeping up with the installers sets and their (un) availability in the US. We operate on a metric system at the plant (we are a Swiss company) so I don't really need imperial anyway.

So, let me know what your go to drill/driver(s) are for my applications. I'll likely order a few of each (if more than one is recommended).

Thanks,
Kevin

Asking the question on a Festool forum, seems like it is asking a question that you want a yes for.

How much drilling do YOU do?
I am assuming you are near RedStone, but mostly because that is a preconception.

Composites usually include carbon fibre. You will want brushless or pneumatic, or the conductive and abrasive fibres result is accelerated motor wear.

The Festool stuff looks nice, but my suggestion would be a Metabo, but I am biased as I use a Mafell A10M. And that is because the standard 1/4" stuff fits. I suspect you would want drill/driver parts staying in place an not bits falling out over aerospace parts.

You probably want pneumatic for drilling, and for driving perhaps a cordless, but more likely one of the corded jobs that have torque setting and can record to a computer if there any QA traceability.

In reality if you do not personally do the drilling/driving then I would suggest getting one of each (Metabo, deWalt, FT, Bosch, Panasonic, etc...) and then make/enlist the people actually using them daily do the rating of them for usefulness.

IMHO

 

[TJ Cornish]

I guess the place to start is to identify those specific qualities you need from a drill and then ascertain which drill will provide them.

I own both Festool and Milwaukee drills.

The outstanding traits that Festool drills provide:
The CXS is my favorite small format drill...bar none.
The C 15/18 has the best torque limiting/control system, it's electronic...no more slipping clutches which just wear out and are annoying to listen to all day long.
The Festool drills provide the best right angle or limited space drilling flexibility.

After that, Milwaukee has all the rest of the bases thoroughly covered.
Issues such as warranty, initial price, battery cost, availability, power and that goofy Centrotec thing are better with the Milwaukee offering...specifically their 18 volt line.

And then there's the issue of ergonomics.

I agree.

I have a Festool T15+3 drill and the Milwaukee M12 Fuel and M18 Fuel drills and drivers.  The Festool is FAR weaker than the Milwaukee M18 Fuel drill.  I haven't done a head to head comparison with the M12 Fuel yet, but those are probably much more comparable.

The T15 has the cool offset chuck and right-angle adapters.  For goofy access these are really nice, and the best part of the Festool, IMO.  The drill is also quieter than the Milwaukee drills, and as Cheese says, the electronic clutch is better than the mechanical clutch of most drills.

On the downside, Centrotech is annoying.  My parts have at least as much runout as other adapters, and they are just different enough to not be compatible with the rest of the 1/4" hex stuff.  Also, the adapters are inconsistent - the offset chuck works best with non-Festool 1/4" ball-held adapters; the Centrotech and 1" bits fit, but aren't securely held.  I also don't particularly care for the chuck/brake system - on every other drill I've owned, the spindle locks solid every time.  On the Festool, when trying to open the chuck, the drive rotates maybe 1/3 of a turn before the shaft locks and the chuck can be opened.  It's not a major operational issue, but slightly annoying.

When I bought my T15+3 (2010 I believe) it was significantly nicer than the competing options of the time - brushless, quieter, cool adapters, etc.  That said, I think Festool has much better competition in 2017 and justifying the 2x or more cost of Festool becomes harder with really great products from Dewalt and Milwaukee..

 

[antss]

I don't think smirak listing his credentials is boasting.  After all, his managerial prowess was called into question by more than one.

Despite the performance lag Festool still sells drills.  All the guys round here have one or two and most knew the sub par performance and bought them anyway. Why is that ?  And why is hard to believe that smirak's guys wouldn't appreciate those same benefits ? 

This is a recent development though.  20 years ago back in the TDK days, FT drills were at the top in performance and battery life, rivaled only by Panny in my opinion.  They rested on their laurels though and have been left in the dust.  They almost missed the sub compact ( TDX/CDX )market entirely.

They do have over 800 stores plus online and I see a lot of their stuff at estate sales. Maybe more market penetration than you think, just saying.

No;  it's not.  If cheap tools were the bees knees they'd have 8000 stores and HomeDepot, Lowes, Menards and ACE would have much smaller tool sections or none at all.  Also, mid tier suppliers like ToolNut, Hartville, Rockler, Woodcraft wouldn't be able to sell us brands like , bosch, woodpeckers, triton, and dewalt , let alone Festool or Starrett.......................all of which shows up at garages sale too.

Asking the question on a Festool forum, seems like it is asking a question that you want a yes for.

Or he's soliciting info from the people that know best in order to factor that into his decision making process.  Asking on a general tool forum would likely generate the usual festool is an overpriced yuppy toy response.

 

[jonathan-m]

I would not recommend any Festool drills in 2017.
The drill market has become very competitive and the big brands like DeWalt, Milwaukee, Makita have far better drills than the now aging Festool offerings for a lot less money, in my opinion.
I personally went with Metabo and highly recommend them! High quality tools, currently the best battery tech, compact and yet extremely powerful. Made for industrial use.
And they too offer a range of interchangeable chucks for different applications, very akin to Festool.

 

[rljatl]

The problem with Metabo in the USA is that they are not readily available and there is little after purchase support.  I do not think the entire range is available either.  Never seen any Metabo tool in a local store.

 

[RKA]

I'm not sure the after purchase support is lacking. Metabo does have a strong presence in the US when it comes to grinders and metal working tools.  They can provide support, but probably from a central location, not through a network of repair facilities, much like Festool.  The drills are available on the internet relatively easily, but at a B&M store, forget it.  The main issue I see is you don't have access to an ecosystem of tools on a battery platform (similar issue to some extent with Festool).  Without that, they won't go far in the US market.  But if all you desire is within their cordless portfolio, it's likely an excellent choice.  It does seem in the OP's case, he is only interested in drills and doesn't need to standardize a portfolio of tools on a platform.

Going back to the Festools, one of the things I appreciated immediately was the response to the trigger when using the tool as a driver.  You won't find that in the specs, you discover this if you put the tool in hand and use it.  If I'm running a screw and want to be careful, I'll reach for the CXS or C15 first. 

 

[semenza]

Seems like there is a bit of making a mountain out of a mole hill going on in this topic due to people reading into things.

[member=64271]smirak[/member]  The other drills / brands you have purchased and used for the task in question have not worked out for one or more reasons. That being battery life and power.

It may also be helpful to know the need or lack of need for compactness and overall size weight of the drills you have tried and or are shopping for?

Do the other features matter .......... the eccentric or right angle chucks?

Personally for a general purpose  drill shop task drill I'd be looking for a bit more capability and capacity than the C/TXS, but that is me for my needs. I know that the cost matters but maybe the best way to really find out is to get  one  Festool drill? I can't imagine a C18 or T18 would not be up to the tasks you have in mind.

In relation to battery life I think the recharge time and speed would be important and the Festool Airstream might come into play for you in that regard.

Seth

 

[smirak]

Seems like there is a bit of making a mountain out of a mole hill going on in this topic due to people reading into things.

[member=64271]smirak[/member]  The other drills / brands you have purchased and used for the task in question have not worked out for one or more reasons. That being battery life and power.

It may also be helpful to know the need or lack of need for compactness and overall size weight of the drills you have tried and or are shopping for?

Do the other features matter .......... the eccentric or right angle chucks?

Personally for a general purpose  drill shop task drill I'd be looking for a bit more capability and capacity than the C/TXS, but that is me for my needs. I know that the cost matters but maybe the best way to really find out is to get  one  Festool drill? I can't imagine a C18 or T18 would not be up to the tasks you have in mind.

In relation to battery life I think the recharge time and speed would be important and the Festool Airstream might come into play for you in that regard.

Seth

Thanks to those that have answered with both constructive and non-constructive answers. 

I am going to buy a CSX and a C/T 18.  After all, the management has tasked me with finding what works.  You don't know what works based on internet searches and reviews.  Some of the tasks that we would use the drill for would necessitate the need for an offset/right angle chuck, but I wouldn't use that as a deciding factor.  If the festool isn't working for our group, no worries.  I'll send them back inside the 30 day return period.  Unfortunately, I don't have a "local" festool dealer in my area to see about demo products.  My nearest 2 dealers are over an hour and a half north and an hour and a half south and those are both Woodcraft stores.  The festool website shows two dealers in my area, but neither of them carry anything, they just order for you if necessary.

 

[antss]

please come back and let us know your impressions on them.

 

[Holmz]

...

Asking the question on a Festool forum, seems like it is asking a question that you want a yes for.

Or he's soliciting info from the people that know best in order to factor that into his decision making process.  Asking on a general tool forum would likely generate the usual festool is an overpriced yuppy toy response.

A good point, but confirmation bias, and other biases need to be factored in. A higher than average rating of Festool should exist on a Festool forum.

More telling to me, and related to the topic, is is the number that mention Metabo in a Festool forum. That says something more positive than it would if it was mentioned on the Metabo Oweners forum.

...

Thanks to those that have answered with both constructive and non-constructive answers. 

I am going to buy a CSX and a C/T 18.  After all, the management has tasked me with finding what works.  You don't know what works based on internet searches and reviews.  Some of the tasks that we would use the drill for would necessitate the need for an offset/right angle chuck, but I wouldn't use that as a deciding factor.  If the festool isn't working for our group, no worries.  I'll send them back inside the 30 day return period.  Unfortunately, I don't have a "local" festool dealer in my area to see about demo products.  My nearest 2 dealers are over an hour and a half north and an hour and a half south and those are both Woodcraft stores.  The festool website shows two dealers in my area, but neither of them carry anything, they just order for you if necessary.

^That^is a wise strategy. I would suggest that you make sure you get plenty of feedback too (which I am sure you will).

I posted earlier about carbon fibre and the use of pneumatic based drills. This understanding came from experience, but that experience is now dated.

Some attention to the sanding "dust" maybe worthwhile to consider from both an OSHA as well as a contamination perspective.

Drill guides, and or templates with drill bushings can help ensure a normal hole.

 

[peter halle]

Seems like there is a bit of making a mountain out of a mole hill going on in this topic due to people reading into things.

[member=64271]smirak[/member]  The other drills / brands you have purchased and used for the task in question have not worked out for one or more reasons. That being battery life and power.

It may also be helpful to know the need or lack of need for compactness and overall size weight of the drills you have tried and or are shopping for?

Do the other features matter .......... the eccentric or right angle chucks?

Personally for a general purpose  drill shop task drill I'd be looking for a bit more capability and capacity than the C/TXS, but that is me for my needs. I know that the cost matters but maybe the best way to really find out is to get  one  Festool drill? I can't imagine a C18 or T18 would not be up to the tasks you have in mind.

In relation to battery life I think the recharge time and speed would be important and the Festool Airstream might come into play for you in that regard.

Seth

Thanks to those that have answered with both constructive and non-constructive answers. 

I am going to buy a CSX and a C/T 18.  After all, the management has tasked me with finding what works.  You don't know what works based on internet searches and reviews.  Some of the tasks that we would use the drill for would necessitate the need for an offset/right angle chuck, but I wouldn't use that as a deciding factor.  If the festool isn't working for our group, no worries.  I'll send them back inside the 30 day return period.  Unfortunately, I don't have a "local" festool dealer in my area to see about demo products.  My nearest 2 dealers are over an hour and a half north and an hour and a half south and those are both Woodcraft stores.  The festool website shows two dealers in my area, but neither of them carry anything, they just order for you if necessary.

I might suggest that you talk to one of your local dealers and have them get in touch with the RSM that handles their account and see if a demo or demo(s) are available of the CXS, and both the C and D handle 18 volt drill.  I would venture a guess that something will happen.

Peter

 

[smirak]

...

Asking the question on a Festool forum, seems like it is asking a question that you want a yes for.

Or he's soliciting info from the people that know best in order to factor that into his decision making process.  Asking on a general tool forum would likely generate the usual festool is an overpriced yuppy toy response.

A good point, but confirmation bias, and other biases need to be factored in. A higher than average rating of Festool should exist on a Festool forum.

More telling to me, and related to the topic, is is the number that mention Metabo in a Festool forum. That says something more positive than it would if it was mentioned on the Metabo Oweners forum.

...

Thanks to those that have answered with both constructive and non-constructive answers. 

I am going to buy a CSX and a C/T 18.  After all, the management has tasked me with finding what works.  You don't know what works based on internet searches and reviews.  Some of the tasks that we would use the drill for would necessitate the need for an offset/right angle chuck, but I wouldn't use that as a deciding factor.  If the festool isn't working for our group, no worries.  I'll send them back inside the 30 day return period.  Unfortunately, I don't have a "local" festool dealer in my area to see about demo products.  My nearest 2 dealers are over an hour and a half north and an hour and a half south and those are both Woodcraft stores.  The festool website shows two dealers in my area, but neither of them carry anything, they just order for you if necessary.

^That^is a wise strategy. I would suggest that you make sure you get plenty of feedback too (which I am sure you will).

I posted earlier about carbon fibre and the use of pneumatic based drills. This understanding came from experience, but that experience is now dated.

Some attention to the sanding "dust" maybe worthwhile to consider from both an OSHA as well as a contamination perspective.

Drill guides, and or templates with drill bushings can help ensure a normal hole.

This is already a normal practice in my plant.  Like I said earlier, many of the tasks are covered in our machining station(s).  This question would be for the "one offs" or BOM changes that occur.  Those changes usually occur after it's been through the machining station(s) and too much has been done to put our product back into the machining station, thus requiring "hand" work. 

Sanding dust is a concern as well, so thank you for reminding me on that front!  The drilling of holes would produce some of that type of dust as well.

Also replying to [member=1674]Peter Halle[/member] - I will reach out to my local guys this am to see what they say. 

 

[leakyroof]

Thanks db...post wasn't meant to sound boastful, so apologies to anyone if it came across as that. I guess maybe the question is, do I continue to spend money on the other brands, or do I buy festool? Is the quality that much better? If I've gone through a couple different brands so far, and would have paid for a festool, would I have gone through a couple different festools as well? Or, would the quality of a festool have prevented me from buying another?

I echo your comment about being organized. Our plant is bringing production from Switzerland to America. We build space product. We are building our plant around a nice 5S environment. Perhaps some of my question may have had to do (unconsciously) with the fact that these tools come in systainers allowing us to be even more 5S compliant. Sure, I can buy a new Milwaukee and a Systainer with some foam inserts, but after that, I'm at the festool price? Maybe I was just internally justifying a festool?

Point of matter is that I need a few more drills, so that's what started this whole thread.

  Any reason why you want Cordless over say, Air Powered Drills?  At any rate, I too vote for the PDC if a 1" diameter hole is needed from time to time.

 

[sancho57]

to the OP, you also mentioned installer sets, what I would suggest as options are the Systainer with the attick so you would be able to have project specific bits in te attic for usage or buy inserts (if they are available not sure) for installer sets and and purchase the bits that the employees would be needing in them. Personally I think the systainer with the attick would be better as your workers will only have one systainer to haul around and be responsible for and the tooling would be easier to manage/ inventory beginning and end of shift, meaning not lost, disappearing easily and easier to control FOD if that is a issue in your plant.
FOD and tooling left on aircraft is a major industry concern w the prime suppliers.

 

[smirak]

Thanks db...post wasn't meant to sound boastful, so apologies to anyone if it came across as that. I guess maybe the question is, do I continue to spend money on the other brands, or do I buy festool? Is the quality that much better? If I've gone through a couple different brands so far, and would have paid for a festool, would I have gone through a couple different festools as well? Or, would the quality of a festool have prevented me from buying another?

I echo your comment about being organized. Our plant is bringing production from Switzerland to America. We build space product. We are building our plant around a nice 5S environment. Perhaps some of my question may have had to do (unconsciously) with the fact that these tools come in systainers allowing us to be even more 5S compliant. Sure, I can buy a new Milwaukee and a Systainer with some foam inserts, but after that, I'm at the festool price? Maybe I was just internally justifying a festool?

Point of matter is that I need a few more drills, so that's what started this whole thread.

  Any reason why you want Cordless over say, Air Powered Drills?  At any rate, I too vote for the PDC if a 1" diameter hole is needed from time to time.

Valid question.  And one that I failed to answer.  The facility is already plumbed for air/electrical/etc.  Where I need this drill is not in that area.  I cannot run a compressor to that area to run an air powered tool.  Also, it would be cost prohibitive to plumb that area for compressed air.  Lastly, this drill/drills would be used for other tasks as well, not located in the area (first thing that comes to mind is hanging office signage for example).

 

[smirak]

to the OP, you also mentioned installer sets, what I would suggest as options are the Systainer with the attick so you would be able to have project specific bits in te attic for usage or buy inserts (if they are available not sure) for installer sets and and purchase the bits that the employees would be needing in them. Personally I think the systainer with the attick would be better as your workers will only have one systainer to haul around and be responsible for and the tooling would be easier to manage/ inventory beginning and end of shift, meaning not lost, disappearing easily and easier to control FOD if that is a issue in your plant.
FOD and tooling left on aircraft is a major industry concern w the prime suppliers.

I am going to look in Zurich next week about installer sets (as we are a metric shop anyway) availability.  That said, I did purchase a sortainer last night (9 drawer I think) so they can carry that with the sys1 that the CSX comes with.  That way, they can store their bits/extras in the drawers.  FOD is a big concern for us.  We are in the space arena of aerospace and this article always comes to mind...
https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/6gtfr3/possible_calipers_left_aboard_spacex_latest/

 

[Jmacpherson]

Any reason why you want Cordless over say, Air Powered Drills?  At any rate, I too vote for the PDC if a 1" diameter hole is needed from time to time.

I have to agree with leakyroof. PDC is only slightly heavier than a T18+3 but you don't notice it and the 4-gears/speeds give you more variety. - not sure if 3800rpm is beneficial or not?

Yes, Festool drills have less torque than the premium drills from rivals but I don't think you need 100Nm+ torque for what you are drilling into anyway.

While in Zurich since you are looking into installer sets, if you are doing so in person instead of online the store(s) should have Festool drills and you could more than likely handle them in store etc.

 

[Gregor]

FOD is a big concern for us.

Then a setup where every part as a defined place so you can see that something is missing might work better than, so one can start to search and panic in case one space is empty at the end of the job.

Would make sense to have rhe sortainer holding the (variable amount) of spares back in the supply room.