Lock Miter Tips and Tricks

[tiralie]

How many passes and what router (1400?) are you using in the CMS. It does look like the stock is moving away from the bit as you are feeding it. Use stacked feather boards on the infeed and out feed side for the vertical pieces. Support the out feed and infeed sides so the board stays stable.
Tim

 

[hrrb]

Holy Crab Cake!  [scared]
How could it go that wrong? Sorry for being straightforward...that looks terrible! [sad]

Did you do it in one pass or 2 to 3 passes? I can't really see the thickness of the stock from your photos but if it's too thick and you try to chew it in one bite it's hard to ensure that the featherboards keep the stock tight to the fence and table top. And then you might get a poor result.

When using a router in a table it is very important that your featherboards keep the stock tight to the fence and table top. I myself have learned that the hard way.

If you do the job in 2-3 passes it might help you. You might have a look at Paul Marcels video. Doing the job in 2-3 passes is exactly what he does.

Ohh...and don't go too fast! Go nice and slowly untill you master the technique.

Don't give up yet  [wink]

Kind regards
Henrik

 

[Sparktrician]

I've found that I need to use a sacrificial fence (1/2" plywood) to keep the piece being routed straight with the fence for the entire pass through.  That has eliminated the gouging like shown on the horizontal piece.  The challenge is in keeping the vertical piece from rocking as it passes through the bit. 

 

[Grasshopper]

Thanks for the many replies.  I am certain this is operator error.  I am optimistic you can help me solve this.

My router table experience is very limited, so I've checked my ego at the door and am humbly seeking your experience 

Here are responses to the questions:

DeepCreek - That makes sense, I'm still hoping to make this work for a pair of newel posts I want to build.

Linbro - I was actually considering throwing the bit away due to frustration.  I'm certain the bit is perfect as it is brand new.  Regarding my fence setup, the two fences are lined up with each other.  I've never run a stepped fence (and with the lock miter, it was a bear to set the fence up having to account for a MM here or there to get things lined up. )

Tim - I am using the OF 1400, and hogging this out in one pass.  I realize that multiple passes would be ideal, I just can't figure out an easy way to do that on the CMS.  Dialing in the hight and fence literally took many hours of fine tuning.  I am using the Festool stock feather boards (the black push board that presses the stock down, and the clear plastic "fingers" that presses the stock against the fence).  As I have no miter slot, I'm not seeing an easy way to add feather boards to the out feed and infeed sides as you suggest.

With the CMS fence so touchy, and no place to put "stop blocks" I cannot envision how I can graduate the fence backward to accomplish multiple passes.  I hope that I am missing something basic.

Hrrb - I agree that it looks terrible.  In fact, its the worst I've seen.  I had to check my ego at the door to post these pictures for sure.  [wink]

The stock is 3/4" thick and it is Poplar.  As I had mentioned above, I hogged these out in one pass, which I assume is a major contributor to the outcome.  Simply put, I cannot envision how to make multiple passes using the CMS-VL router table, and stock feather boards.  The feather board is set to as tight as I can get it to go.  I don't know how to ease in with multiple passes with my current setup.

Willy - I see where a sacrificial fence would be helpful.  Any tips on how to integrate one with the CMS fence.

See pictures below of my setup. 

See stock tight against my fence using all Festool factory feather board and guards:

[attachimg=1]

View of bit from the top showing fence running mostly parallel:
[attachimg=2]

Other angle of fence:
[attachimg=3]

View of what the stock sees as it is being fed to the bit.  Stock is held pretty tight against the bit and fence:
[attachimg=4]

 

[bkharman]

Grasshopper.

There are many ways to accomplish the "multi pass" method. Since you know the fence can be a beast to mess with (stock CMS one that is). You might try putting a temporary fence or base off of your final cut.

I am tying this on my phone so it is hard to explain but if you set your final cut (fence and bit depth) and then have sacrificial boards in the table and against the fence, you can route out a shallow pass and then take that board away, put a smaller shim in and run again.

I think Paul Marcel has a video on this, or maybe it was Peter but there are some out in YT land.

I use an Incra fence which makes the above method moot, but the above procedure definitely works!  Not for all bits, but it does for the lock miter bit.

Cheers. Bryan.

 

[deepcreek]

I'm not going to knock the CMS or the 1400 (my favorite handheld but underpowered for what you are doing) but it sounds like they may be part of the problem.

I have a Woodpecker table and router lift with a Hitachi 3-1/4HP variable speed router.  My lock miter bit is an Amana.  I have hogged out long lengths of soft stock (Red Cedar) for some exterior trim.  I added a lot of extra featherboards and had to leave extra length so I could cut off the tail end of the boards if things got squirrely as I exited the cut.  I made it work but the results were not perfect (which is my always my goal).

 

[Linbro]

When you run it with the stock flat on the table,  does the cutter remove much material at the point of the mitre?

 

[Grasshopper]

When you run it with the stock flat on the table,  does the cutter remove much material at the point of the mitre?

The pass on the flat does take out a lot of material. The flat pass wasn't as bad as the vertical pass.

 

[Linbro]

When you run it with the stock flat on the table,  does the cutter remove much material at the point of the mitre?

The pass on the flat does take out a lot of material. The flat pass wasn't as bad as the vertical pass.

Yeah, but at the point of the mitre?

 

[Sparktrician]

Willy - I see where a sacrificial fence would be helpful.  Any tips on how to integrate one with the CMS fence.

Here's a shot of how I did one with 3/4" MDF.  It's a little too thick  for my purposes, which is why I suggested using 1/2" plywood. 

[smile]

Edit: Just added a shot of the end result of using the sacrificial fence and the Infinity setup jig.  I had to make several fine-tuning adjustments, but this is the result.  Then - I thought to measure the thickness of the MDF.  It's greater than 3/4", so I get to do the process all over again with stock that is exactly 3/4" so I can make a set of UHMW setup blocks. 

 

[Grasshopper]

Joe,

Your setup looks great!  I ran to my local lumberyard and picked up a pair of Woodpeckers feather boards.

I think I will also make a sacrificial fence out of 1/2" that I can use for my first pass, then I can remove and take a 2nd pass without hogging it out all in one pass.

I plan to set the downward pressing feather board just past the cutter, and another on the table pressing towards the cutter.  If I can figure out a T-Track but that will fit the CMS's smaller T-channel on the bevel.  The fence side's channel is bigger and accepts the nut from the Woodpeckers hardware, but the bevel's T-channel is smaller. 

Hopefully I can keep the pressure good in front of the cutter with a push block and push stick (certainly more feather boards would help, but I am trying to keep costs down after my recent Festool binge).

Feedback is welcome.  Anybody have suggestions for the best way to use the smaller t-track (the larger T-track in the fence is perfect for festool clamps etc., not sure what folks use the smaller size t-track for), or how to attach feather boards on the CMS.

See pictures below:

Photo of my tentative feather board placement, and the CMS miter gauge aimed towards the cutter
[attachimg=1]

Picture of the CMS's smaller T-track-  (does Festool sell a rectangular shaped nut that slides in here?)
[attachimg=2]

I'm not going to knock the CMS or the 1400 (my favorite handheld but underpowered for what you are doing) but it sounds like they may be part of the problem.

I have a Woodpecker table and router lift with a Hitachi 3-1/4HP variable speed router.  My lock miter bit is an Amana.  I have hogged out long lengths of soft stock (Red Cedar) for some exterior trim.  I added a lot of extra featherboards and had to leave extra length so I could cut off the tail end of the boards if things got squirrely as I exited the cut.  I made it work but the results were not perfect (which is my always my goal).

 

[WoodWhisperer]

Here is a pic of how I ran my vertical pieces through. It worked pretty good. Still got some tear out. I ran a lot of material through it for the project I was going. I would say u need to run probably 15-20% extra just to make sure up have enough good stock to use.

 

[Sparktrician]

WoodWhisperer, I like the secondary fence for vertical pieces.  My challenge with the CMS is that when I run pieces vertically, the reducing rings around the bit on the CMS are slightly lower than the deck of the CMS, so if I'm routing the narrow end of a 3" x 18" piece, for example, the workpiece tends to go off-perpendicular as it passes through the bit.  Routing pieces on the long side isn't a problem; it's the short side. 

 

[Grasshopper]

Nice!

Here is a pic of how I ran my vertical pieces through. It worked pretty good. Still got some tear out. I ran a lot of material through it for the project I was going. I would say u need to run probably 15-20% extra just to make sure up have enough good stock to use.

 

[Grasshopper]

Update.  Thanks for all the feedback!  I tried another setup that I learned from Peter Parfitt on this other thread thread: http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-problems/cms-ge-feather-board/msg374222/#msg374222

  I also added some scrap 1/2" baltic birch plywood as a zero clearance fence for the first pass.  Night and day from my previous setup.

After running some scrap through, I am seeing a much better cut, but I now think the cutter is not set at the correct depth.  I'm back to trying to dial this in before I run real stock through.  I'm more confident in this setup running 3 feather boards.

[attachimg=1]

 

[Grasshopper]

*Update*  I give up on the lock miter.

Those of you who have mastered it, I bow down to y'all.

I thought I had it dialed in, had sacrificial fences (1/2", then 1/4"), running three passes.  Featherboards galore… and I still managed to kill $120 worth of S4S maple.  I know when I am defeated, and the lock miter certainly was the winner today.

I'm off to try and find an alternative method that suits me in my newel style island posts.  So as to not derail this thread, I've created a new thread seeking FOGgers alternative methods for newel post construction: 

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-how-to/what-is-your-festool-way-to-build-a-newel-post/

 

[jbasen]

What issue are you having with the joint?  The most common I've experienced is that there is a slight gap in the corners where the pieces of wood come together.  You can usually take a metal rod and rub it along the corners to push the wood fibers from each piece together and totally hide the gap.

Hope this helps

 

[Grasshopper]

For whatever reason, there was still a ton of tearout.

Good tip on the rod. I think with some sanding, and some rod I may be able to salvage some of the joints.

Overall, it was way more work that it was worth. I think I'll keep lock miters for small boxes, but not long runs of stock.

What issue are you having with the joint?  The most common I've experienced is that there is a slight gap in the corners where the pieces of wood come together.  You can usually take a metal rod and rub it along the corners to push the wood fibers from each piece together and totally hide the gap.

Hope this helps

 

[hrrb]

*Update*  I give up on the lock miter.

… and I still managed to kill $120 worth of S4S maple. 

I'm sorry to hear that  [sad]

It seemed you had taken all necessary steps and precautions to avoid things going bad.

Is it both the 'vertical' and 'horizontal' boards that's got tear out?

The ones you do in 'upright' position can be a bit tricky if you by accident tilt the stock. It's important to keep it firm and flat against the fence either by hand or with stacked featherboards.
It's a bit easier to do the 'horizontal' ones without any issues.

I can't figure out what you did wrong  [unsure]

Do you have a picture of the final result showing the tear out?

Kind regards
Henrik

PS! Did you remember to lock the router? I once read that if you dont remember to lock the plunge mecanism there is a slight risc that some bits running trough hard wood actually can lift the router a teeny weeny bit...just enough to ruin your work. Haven't tried that myself though.  [huh]

 

[Sparktrician]

The ones you do in 'upright' position can be a bit tricky if you by accident tilt the stock.

I'm still trying to figure out a methodology for keeping the upright pieces truly perpendicular to the table.  Anyone got any good ideas?