Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?

[morts10n]

I had 2 Kapex burn up...one lasted 18 months. Only used by me cutting 3/4" material. Capacity of cut is awful compared to current Makita LS 1019. Dust collection and weight were a positive though.

 

[ChuckM]

I had 2 Kapex burn up...one lasted 18 months. Snip.

Both EB model, eh?

I had a false alarm with my Kapex EB last week after about an hour of cutting. The saw stopped working with no warning...no smell though. I checked (and reset) the auto-switch on the vac, and checked the panel, but finding nothing wrong.

[attachimg=1]

I began to worry...but then noticed that my 20A wall outlet (GFCI & GFI), which I installed two years ago, also had a reset button. Pushing the "reset" button brought the saw back to life. Phew!

[attachimg=2]

 

[tomktest]

This is really helpful feedback thanks everyone. For some reason I can never get notifications to work on this forum so I missed the responses pouring in :/

I will need to spend some more time at the store to see if I would get used to the handle. My wrist just doesn't like to move that way. I agree it would feel better if the saw were mounted lower to the ground but then I will tend to hunch over the saw which is just trading one problem for another. It is a really good idea to have a saw that works both left and right handed... they could have just put the horizontal handle in the middle the same way they have the vertical handle.

I know I would really miss the shadow line but having a laser on each side seems doable. Then again the shadow line also lights up your work area....

I've never had great luck with long bevel cuts on my DeWalt because of the blade deflection. With good hand discipline it can be done but it doesn't take much for that blade to start wondering off course. Are the Kapex rails just that much more solid that it doesn't have the same issue?

I had 2 Kapex burn up...one lasted 18 months. Only used by me cutting 3/4" material. Capacity of cut is awful compared to current Makita LS 1019. Dust collection and weight were a positive though.

I looked at that Makita a while back and was hesitant because it has a single laser which is isn't very useful. Why does the 40v XGT get the shadow line??? Apparently there are ways to hack something together.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip. Are the Kapex rails just that much more solid that it doesn't have the same issue?Snip.

I guess so.

I did an experiment: I cut several scraps (pine and walnut) at 45* vertically against the fence as miters. I repeated the same but this time flat on the turntable as bevels at 45*. The angles were all spot-on at 45*, but the bevels had no tear-outs because of the ZCI. My ZCF (fence) wasn't tall enough to cover the whole scraps when cut as a miter. So for any wide pieces, I now cut miters as bevels (at 45*).

As I said, the bevel control is easy to do by rotating the bevel adjustment knob. So the Kapex bevel is precise and accurate enough to cut case (long) miters (previously, I could only achieve that with the SawStop (and an L-fence set-up)).

[attachimg=1]

 

[semenza]

This is really helpful feedback thanks everyone. For some reason I can never get notifications to work on this forum so I missed the responses pouring in :/

I will need to spend some more time at the store to see if I would get used to the handle. My wrist just doesn't like to move that way. I agree it would feel better if the saw were mounted lower to the ground but then I will tend to hunch over the saw which is just trading one problem for another. It is a really good idea to have a saw that works both left and right handed... they could have just put the horizontal handle in the middle the same way they have the vertical handle.

I know I would really miss the shadow line but having a laser on each side seems doable. Then again the shadow line also lights up your work area....

I've never had great luck with long bevel cuts on my DeWalt because of the blade deflection. With good hand discipline it can be done but it doesn't take much for that blade to start wondering off course. Are the Kapex rails just that much more solid that it doesn't have the same issue?

I had 2 Kapex burn up...one lasted 18 months. Only used by me cutting 3/4" material. Capacity of cut is awful compared to current Makita LS 1019. Dust collection and weight were a positive though.

I looked at that Makita a while back and was hesitant because it has a single laser which is isn't very useful. Why does the 40v XGT get the shadow line??? Apparently there are ways to hack something together.

One of the reasons for the Kapex handle design is to help keep the user from exerting side to side and rotational force. The rails seem pretty solid but the handle is a contributing factor to the very true cuts.
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I know that some will never get used to or like the handle.

      However I find that when I actually use it as opposed to just grabbing it to get a "feel" for it, that I actual grab it differently. I just go ahead and make the cut without putting all that much thought into grabbing onto the handle. This is just one of those things that a person ends up doing with much less consciousness than when trying it out.

This is not to knock the guy in the vid, he was genuinely showing how to hold / grab the handle. But he was really grabbing the handle with his full hand. It doesn't take that much of a full grasp. I pretty much use my fingers and thumb, but I don't really wrap my full hand around it until I am bringing the head forward and down. Hard to explain.

    Another big factor is just that different people have different hand, arm, wrist mechanics.

    Like I said I know that some will never like or get used to the handle. And I am not trying to convince everyone to like it. Just giving some (hopefully) useful insight into using the saw.

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  I don't get not using or liking the lasers (yes, maybe hard to see outside ). I set / adjusted mine so that the blade fills the space between them exactly. In other words if a place the laser line exactly on top ( overlayed on ) of a pencil line, the cut will leave exactly just the pencil line. Knowing this I can take the line , leave the line, or split the line. I can see exactly how much wood will be cut (anything showing between the lasers). Which makes it easy to shave 64ths if need be.

And it eliminates a lot of bending down to see where the blade touches the wood. Which largely takes care of the lower saw station height.

    [member=76739]TomK_2[/member]  Can you buy it from a nearby store where it is easy to return?  You've got 30 days to find out if you hate it.

Seth

 

[MikeGE]

  I don't get not using or liking the lasers (yes, maybe hard to see outside ). I set / adjusted mine so that the blade fills the space between them exactly. In other words if a place the laser line exactly on top ( overlayed on ) of a pencil line, the cut will leave exactly just the pencil line. Knowing this I can take the line , leave the line, or split the line. I can see exactly how much wood will be cut (anything showing between the lasers). Which makes it easy to shave 64ths if need be.

Seth, have you ever used a mitersaw that had the shadow line instead of the LASER?  The difference is night and day.  The shadow line leaves a crisp line where the blade is.  For me, the LASER is a line that is not crisp where the blade will be.  I understand how to use the LASER alignment, but will never appreciate it more than the LED shadow line.

 

[semenza]

  I don't get not using or liking the lasers (yes, maybe hard to see outside ). I set / adjusted mine so that the blade fills the space between them exactly. In other words if a place the laser line exactly on top ( overlayed on ) of a pencil line, the cut will leave exactly just the pencil line. Knowing this I can take the line , leave the line, or split the line. I can see exactly how much wood will be cut (anything showing between the lasers). Which makes it easy to shave 64ths if need be.

Seth, have you ever used a mitersaw that had the shadow line instead of the LASER?  The difference is night and day.  The shadow line leaves a crisp line where the blade is.  For me, the LASER is a line that is not crisp where the blade will be.  I understand how to use the LASER alignment, but will never appreciate it more than the LED shadow line.

I haven't used a shadow line. But the part I don't get isn't peoples the preference for the shadow line. I can understand a preference for one type or another.

What I don't get is having lasers available and not using them. Or not using them because they are out of alignment, inaccurate, or etc.    At least on Kapex, my experience is the opposite .... they are accurate, highly adjustable, stay aligned, easy to see, work very well, I can count on them, don't have to bother lowering the blade.

Maybe some of it is old habits?

I described my laser alignment because I have had them adjusted to different parameters. Such as the laser being part of the kerf that gets cut. And found that they are not as good or intuitive when set that way. Not suggesting that people don't know how to use them in general.

I guess if it boils down to lasers or nothing, I'll take the lasers every time.

I am curious now as to why people don't like the lasers?  Other than liking the shadow line better.

Seth

 

[woodbutcherbower]

I am curious now as to why people don't like the lasers?  Other than liking the shadow line better.

Seth

My main 305mm saw (DWS780) uses shadow line - I also have a 190mm Makita LS0714 for small-scale trim work which uses a laser - so I have both. The principal advantage of SL is that you can literally see the sawblade's actual teeth silhouetted against the work surface, so you can see exactly where the tooth edge is going to land. Result = super-accurate cuts. Now - I know that the Kapex has two lasers which are set up either side of the blade - so in that respect, it performs exactly the same function as the SL, with a correspondingly identical degree of visual clarity and accuracy.

But .................. every other saw out there only has one laser - and that's what I have a problem with. So you line the laser up with your pencil mark. Which side of the line is the blade going to land? If the laser's set up so it lands on the right - what happens when I need to cut to the left of the line (as I very often do)? Sure - the laser on the Makita can be adjusted for either side, but it's a heck of lot of goofing around with a screwdriver every time you need to do a left-of-the-line cut. Plus - both of my saws use a selection of different blades whose teeth have slightly different kerfs. As a commercial joiner working to what are often very tight timescales, I just don't have the time to spend on adjusting lasers, test cutting, readjusting, test cutting again, and so on - let alone having to do that multiple times a day. So the laser's turned off on the Makita, and I lower the stationary blade to exactly meet the pencil mark before I cut. It's the only realistic way to avoid all of the above, get accurate cuts, and get the job done on time. If it had twin Kapex-style lasers, I'd be using them - 100%, no question.

So for me, Seth - it's not about liking one more than the other. It's about getting the job done as accurately and quickly as possible given the limitations of a single-laser machine, with the minimum downtime, and with no need for any adjustment at all. Ever.

 

[Coen]

I had 2 Kapex burn up...one lasted 18 months. Only used by me cutting 3/4" material. Capacity of cut is awful compared to current Makita LS 1019. Dust collection and weight were a positive though.

I looked at that Makita a while back and was hesitant because it has a single laser which is isn't very useful. Why does the 40v XGT get the shadow line??? Apparently there are ways to hack something together.

Probably because a lot of new stuff is only put in with new models while older ones are not revised.

But how often you need the laser on the other side? Move the blade down to check for those few cuts?

  I don't get not using or liking the lasers (yes, maybe hard to see outside ). I set / adjusted mine so that the blade fills the space between them exactly. In other words if a place the laser line exactly on top ( overlayed on ) of a pencil line, the cut will leave exactly just the pencil line. Knowing this I can take the line , leave the line, or split the line. I can see exactly how much wood will be cut (anything showing between the lasers). Which makes it easy to shave 64ths if need be.

Seth, have you ever used a mitersaw that had the shadow line instead of the LASER?  The difference is night and day.  The shadow line leaves a crisp line where the blade is.  For me, the LASER is a line that is not crisp where the blade will be.  I understand how to use the LASER alignment, but will never appreciate it more than the LED shadow line.

I haven't used a shadow line. But the part I don't get isn't peoples the preference for the shadow line. I can understand a preference for one type or another.

What I don't get is having lasers available and not using them. Or not using them because they are out of alignment, inaccurate, or etc.    At least on Kapex, my experience is the opposite .... they are accurate, highly adjustable, stay aligned, easy to see, work very well, I can count on them, don't have to bother lowering the blade.

Maybe some of it is old habits?

I described my laser alignment because I have had them adjusted to different parameters. Such as the laser being part of the kerf that gets cut. And found that they are not as good or intuitive when set that way. Not suggesting that people don't know how to use them in general.

I guess if it boils down to lasers or nothing, I'll take the lasers every time.

I am curious now as to why people don't like the lasers?  Other than liking the shadow line better.

Seth

Because they distrust what they don't understand? And if misaligned... kinda useless.

 

[semenza]

Yeah, one laser would not be as good. Glad Kapex has two.

Seth

 

[MikeGE]

Because they distrust what they don't understand?

Hmmm...that's a bit condescending and insulting.  As an electrical engineer, I fully understand what a LASER is and how it is used.  I PREFER, repeat PREFER, the shadow line for its superior accuracy (in my opinion) over the LASER.

 

[MikeGE]

I haven't used a shadow line. But the part I don't get isn't peoples the preference for the shadow line. I can understand a preference for one type or another.
...snip...

I am curious now as to why people don't like the lasers?  Other than liking the shadow line better.

I don't know how to explain it better than woodbutcherbower, but i'll try.  Because the LASER is a beam of light, it has a width dimension, albeit small, on the wood to be cut; however, it has a bright center that rapidly fades at the edges.  The shadow line has no dimension and is the exact edges of both sides of the saw tooth.  If you see a the shadow on the wood, it will soon be gone when the blade passes through.  Anything that is not shadow will remain.

When I use a marking knife line to identify where to cut, I don't have to guess where I put the mark with the shadow line like I do with the LASER.  I only use the LASER when I'm approximating a cut.  Otherwise, I use the scale in my T-track and the stop block.

If you have never used a saw with a shadow line, then this explains why you don't understand.  If my DWS780 had better dust collection, I would have never replaced it with the Kapex 120.  However, the benefits of the improved dust collection far outweigh the loss of the shadow line.

 

[semenza]

I haven't used a shadow line. But the part I don't get isn't peoples the preference for the shadow line. I can understand a preference for one type or another.
...snip...

I am curious now as to why people don't like the lasers?  Other than liking the shadow line better.

I don't know how to explain it better than woodbutcherbower, but i'll try.  Because the LASER is a beam of light, it has a width dimension, albeit small, on the wood to be cut; however, it has a bright center that rapidly fades at the edges.  The shadow line has no dimension and is the exact edges of both sides of the saw tooth.  If you see a the shadow on the wood, it will soon be gone when the blade passes through.  Anything that is not shadow will remain.

When I use a marking knife line to identify where to cut, I don't have to guess where I put the mark with the shadow line like I do with the LASER.  I only use the LASER when I'm approximating a cut.  Otherwise, I use the scale in my T-track and the stop block.

If you have never used a saw with a shadow line, then this explains why you don't understand.  If my DWS780 had better dust collection, I would have never replaced it with the Kapex 120.  However, the benefits of the improved dust collection far outweigh the loss of the shadow line.

  My thing is about why people don't like the lasers. Specifically the twin lasers on Kapex. It is not about shadow line vs lasers. And I understand the difference as explained perfectly well.

  People have said they don't like the twin lasers on Kapex even before the shadow line existed. I am interested to know why.  Personally I will take Kapex twin lasers over nothing, all day long.

  The fuzzy edge can be an issue so that is a reason.

  Seth

 

[MikeGE]

  My thing is about why people don't like the lasers. Specifically the twin lasers on Kapex. It is not about shadow line vs lasers. And I understand the difference as explained perfectly well.

  People have said they don't like the twin lasers on Kapex even before the shadow line existed. I am interested to know why.  Personally I will take Kapex twin lasers over nothing, all day long.

  The fuzzy edge can be an issue so that is a reason.

  Seth

Now I understand.  If my first experience with a mitersaw had been one with a LASER, I might have thought it was the bee's knees, and two beams bracketing the blade area would definitely be better.  However, my first experience was with the shadow line and now I'm spoiled.

The KS 60 has an optional shadow line attachment, why not the KS 120?

 

[semenza]

  My thing is about why people don't like the lasers. Specifically the twin lasers on Kapex. It is not about shadow line vs lasers. And I understand the difference as explained perfectly well.

  People have said they don't like the twin lasers on Kapex even before the shadow line existed. I am interested to know why.  Personally I will take Kapex twin lasers over nothing, all day long.

  The fuzzy edge can be an issue so that is a reason.

  Seth

Now I understand.  If my first experience with a mitersaw had been one with a LASER, I might have thought it was the bee's knees, and two beams bracketing the blade area would definitely be better.  However, my first experience was with the shadow line and now I'm spoiled.

The KS 60 has an optional shadow line attachment, why not the KS 120?

Probably because the 120 is all set up to built with lasers.

Optional attachment for the 120 would be nice. Especially if it could then have both. Maybe even allowing for lasers to be set one way and shadow line a different way. Not sure to the exact purpose. But maybe for different types of cuts.

BTW, is the shadow line easier to see in sunlight or does it disappear if the sun is at a bad angle?

Seth

 

[MikeGE]

BTW, is the shadow line easier to see in sunlight or does it disappear if the sun is at a bad angle?

Seth

I don't know.  I used my DWS780 in the garage at first and then in the basement after the shop was built.  However, the LED is bright, so I think the shadow would be visible.

 

[usernumber1]

can someone just post a picture of this shadow line i can't believe the praise. shadows have blurry edges as well

 

[jeh]

I have saws with both and do not have a preference. Both work without issue for me.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[member=68525]usernumber1[/member] I have another 350-400 mitre cuts to do on mouldings, midrails, crowns and 9” high baseboards for this panelling job tomorrow. It’s a big room and this photo just shows around 10% of it. I’ll take some SL pictures and post them when I get home.

Kevin

 

[ChuckM]

can someone just post a picture of this shadow line i can't believe the praise. shadows have blurry edges as well

https://news.ohiopowertool.com/shadow-line-miter-saws-how-do-they-work/

I checked out a few miter saw shadow line videos, and the shadow lines were crisper and better than laser lines. For carpentry kind of task, either should be fine. Since their accuracy relies on eye sights, they may not provide the repeatability that is required for fine furniture grade builds.