Looking for space saving miter saw. Kapex worth a try?

[woodbutcherbower]

BTW, is the shadow line easier to see in sunlight or does it disappear if the sun is at a bad angle?

Seth

No light-based guidance device is going to work as well in bright ambient light as it does in low light, Seth (as you'll be well aware as an experienced woodworker) - so being perfectly honest, there’s probably not that much to choose between the two. But the SL is definitely more visible in bright light if you bend down and get a little closer to it. My last job before the current one was this hot-tub deck. Bright sunshine for a coupla days building the support legs and base framework. All accurate and tight with SL. But this is the UK - so it then rained constantly until the job was finished. Plastic bag over the saw’s motor, forever cleaning off wet sawdust sludge before it dries to wood-coloured concrete, and another few days making me glad I bought the Sys-Powerhub.

Kevin

 

[Coen]

Because they distrust what they don't understand?

Hmmm...that's a bit condescending and insulting.  As an electrical engineer, I fully understand what a LASER is and how it is used.  I PREFER, repeat PREFER, the shadow line for its superior accuracy (in my opinion) over the LASER.

Nah, it's a bit of the truth. A lot of people won't accept innovation easily.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

Hey [member=76739]TomK_2[/member] - just to stop hijacking your thread and getting back on topic = 'space-saving for use against a wall' - have you seen this? Comes with dual lasers, too ........ and a proper handle  [smile]

32kg. I never thought I'd see something heavier than my 780. I don't think that build quality on this thing will be an issue ...


Kevin

 

[Coen]

Hey [member=76739]TomK_2[/member] - just to stop hijacking your thread and getting back on topic = 'space-saving for use against a wall' - have you seen this? Comes with dual lasers, too ........ and a proper handle  [smile]

32kg. I never thought I'd see something heavier than my 780. I don't think that build quality on this thing will be an issue ...


Kevin

That Bosch has atrocious dust extraction. The Makita is way better in that aspect. Either the LS1019L (260 blade) or the LS1219L (305 blade). Both are space saving too in the same way the Kapex is.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[member=8955]Coen[/member] So from your post, I'm guessing that you used all 3 saws you mentioned. I'm sure it would help the OP if you shared a bit more of your experience. He's currently a DW user, so he'll be well aware of hopeless extraction .....

Kevin

 

[Coen]

[member=8955]Coen[/member] So from your post, I'm guessing that you used all 3 saws you mentioned. I'm sure it would help the OP if you shared a bit more of your experience. He's currently a DW user, so he'll be well aware of hopeless extraction .....

Kervin

Nope. But even the most basic review will show you the mess the Bosch leaves.

Specifically, GoTools TV has a video comparing the Bosch GCM 12 GDL to the Makita LS1219L. Dust extraction is night vs day.

EDIT:
German spoken.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[member=8955]Coen[/member] So from your post, I'm guessing that you used all 3 saws you mentioned. I'm sure it would help the OP if you shared a bit more of your experience. He's currently a DW user, so he'll be well aware of hopeless extraction .....

Kervin

Nope. But even the most basic review will show you the mess the Bosch leaves.

Fair point Mr.C - and your comment is 100% respected. I have no personal experience of the Bosch and therefore won't volunteer an uninformed opinion. What I would say however, is that almost every online review also mentions how useless the extraction is on the DWS780 (and they are all completely right) - but I bought one anyway, because it's a bombproof, industry-standard saw for a professional contractor like me, which is built like a tank and won't fall apart when the going gets tough. I'd personally place my trust in real-world hands-on experience, rather than what some random YouTube reviewer guy says, whilst comparing saws in a clean, warm, near-perfect  environment, shooting multiple takes and then editing to get the footage he needs to make the video interesting for the masses - whilst begging for ‘Like and Subscribe’ often before viewers have even seen the video. YT is, after all, the same platform which recently featured the well-known and highly respected Peter Millard completely junking the Lamello Zeta P2 after building panelwork which fell apart = because he was using totally the wrong connectors for the task. Experience has taught me that reality is best viewed through my own eyes - not someone else's.

So if I was standing in the OP's shoes - I'd try out the Bosch axial-glide anyway, because it's his money, and his right to decide if the extraction (or lack of it) is good enough to meet his needs - or if it's a total deal-breaker.

Kevin

 

[Coen]

[member=8955]Coen[/member] So from your post, I'm guessing that you used all 3 saws you mentioned. I'm sure it would help the OP if you shared a bit more of your experience. He's currently a DW user, so he'll be well aware of hopeless extraction .....

Kervin

Nope. But even the most basic review will show you the mess the Bosch leaves.

Fair point Mr.C - and your comment is 100% respected. I have no personal experience of the Bosch and therefore won't volunteer an uninformed opinion. What I would say however, is that almost every online review also mentions how useless the extraction is on the DWS780 (and they are all completely right) - but I bought one anyway, because it's a bombproof, industry-standard saw for a professional contractor like me, which is built like a tank and won't fall apart when the going gets tough. I'd personally place my trust in real-world hands-on experience, rather than what some random YouTube reviewer guy says, whilst comparing saws in a clean, warm, near-perfect  environment, shooting multiple takes and then editing to get the footage he needs to make the video interesting for the masses - whilst begging for ‘Like and Subscribe’ often before viewers have even seen the video. YT is, after all, the same platform which recently featured the well-known and highly respected Peter Millard completely junking the Lamello Zeta P2 after building panelwork which fell apart = because he was using totally the wrong connectors for the task. Experience has taught me that reality is best viewed through my own eyes - not someone else's.

So if I was standing in the OP's shoes - I'd try out the Bosch axial-glide anyway, because it's his money, and his right to decide if the extraction (or lack of it) is good enough to meet his needs - or if it's a total deal-breaker.

Kevin

Well... it's not a random YouTuber  [wink]

And a video can show perfectly fine the difference in dust collection.

Also; try it where? I can't think of a single place I can try the Bosch in store.

Same applies to other brands btw. You would have to find some brand-specific demo day somewhere.

And with the size and weight of these things it's not like you are gonna buy it and just ship it back... expensive.

 

[Mini Me]

A lot of comment here about dust collection, the big stuff we see is not the problem it is the invisible stuff that is the problem. Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test. Everyone comments on how the Kapex system picks up the visible stuff but a broom will do the same thing and apart from the mess created the big stuff is not dangerous to our health.

 

[ChuckM]

BOTH visible and invisible dust particles matter. No dust collection methods are perfect, and the goal is to try to capture dust -- visible as well as invisible -- at the source as much as possible. N95 masks offer another line of defence regardless of what miter saw we use.

 

[Cheese]

Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test.

Yes, there is someone on this forum that monitors the amount of dust produced and uses that information to actuate additional dust collection equipment. I thought the idea was really smart and liked the approach because it was so simple really. I just can't remember who the person is.  [sad]

FWIW...I'd also love to see the results of your Kapex test, I like the idea.  [smile]

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[member=68525]usernumber1[/member] As promised. The pics show you how you can line up the very edge of the blade's tooth against your pencil mark.

 

[MikeGE]

A lot of comment here about dust collection, the big stuff we see is not the problem it is the invisible stuff that is the problem. Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test. Everyone comments on how the Kapex system picks up the visible stuff but a broom will do the same thing and apart from the mess created the big stuff is not dangerous to our health.

I used the Dylos DC1700 Air Quality Meter in my shop when I had the DWS780 and a Bosch 125mm ROS (before I built out the second shop area).  I would take a break from cutting or sanding when the small particulate count (0.5 micron and larger) exceeded about 1,500 over ambient for the day, which was usually less than ten minutes of use for each.  I always used the ROS connected to a shop vac, but had a large shroud connected to my large DC system for the DWS780...it was mostly ineffective.

The reason I use the daily ambient as the starting point, is the Dylos does not differentiate between airborne pollen, burning toast, dog farts, or wood dust.  A particle is a particle.  There were days in the summer when the ambient reading anywhere in my house for the small particulate was over 15,000.

I have a ceiling mounted Record Power AC400 running on medium speed any time I was using the miter saw or Bosch ROS.  It would take anywhere between 20 minutes to an hour of inactivity to bring the particulate count down to the daily ambient level.  This meant working for a few minutes before taking a long break.  That part of my shop did not have windows, so it was not possible to vent to the outside.

After changing to the KS 120, connected to a dedicated CTL 36E and the ETS EC 150 connected to my mobile CTL 26E and Dust Deputy cyclone, I can now complete any of my tasks before the DC1700 reaches my trigger point.  I still use the AC400 on low speed anytime I'm using tools in that part of the shop.  All of my other work with the powered hand tools is done in a new part of my shop that has a window to the outside.  The KS 120 is still a bit messy, but the chips that I can see are not sneaking their way into my lungs to surprise me in ten years with respiratory problems.

 

[Econoline]

These days I'm not as concerned about space saving, although, the Kapex 120 does fit on shallow benches against a wall, where other saws will not. My main concern is dust collection, and being able to see what I'm doing. The dust collection on most compound miter saws is dismal, the Kapex is better than some, but not great. Having the saw at the right height, having decent light, and a good zero clearance system makes site-work really enjoyable. The tall miter latch, and the depth limit make this saw better than most, IMHO...
E.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
After changing to the KS 120, connected to a dedicated CTL 36E and the ETS EC 150 connected to my mobile CTL 26E and Dust Deputy cyclone, I can now complete any of my tasks before the DC1700 reaches my trigger point. 
Snip.

The KS 120 is still a bit messy, but the chips that I can see are not sneaking their way into my lungs to surprise me in ten years with respiratory problems.

Good to know that the Kapex performs so well. For prolonged sessions, I tend to put on my N95 mask when using the Kapex or SawStop. I find that if I use the saws for just a dozen cuts or so, I see no traces of any dust particles on my eye-glasses afterwards. One exception is making edge cuts on the SawStop. The claimed 99% dust collection by SawStop doesn't apply in that kind of cut. (For the record, my SawStop is hooked to a dust collector as well as to a shop vac (for the overhead dust collection tube)).

 

[semenza]

I will need to spend some more time at the store to see if I would get used to the handle. My wrist just doesn't like to move that way. I agree it would feel better if the saw were mounted lower to the ground but then I will tend to hunch over the saw which is just trading one problem for another. It is a really good idea to have a saw that works both left and right handed... they could have just put the horizontal handle in the middle the same way they have the vertical handle.

    This suggests that you have a Festool store / dealer near enough to easily return a Kapex within the 30 day window if you didn't like it.  To answer your main question I would say yes Kapex is worth trying.

Seth

 

[Coen]

A lot of comment here about dust collection, the big stuff we see is not the problem it is the invisible stuff that is the problem. Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test. Everyone comments on how the Kapex system picks up the visible stuff but a broom will do the same thing and apart from the mess created the big stuff is not dangerous to our health.

Small stuff is even easier carried with the air since it's Cd*A is larger relative to it's weight, so if it catches big dust... it already cought the small dust.

This is the whole idea behind dust extraction for chiseling (See Bosch GDE Max); all the nasty small dust is extracted, all the big chunks still fall down.

 

[Mini Me]

A lot of comment here about dust collection, the big stuff we see is not the problem it is the invisible stuff that is the problem. Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test. Everyone comments on how the Kapex system picks up the visible stuff but a broom will do the same thing and apart from the mess created the big stuff is not dangerous to our health.

Small stuff is even easier carried with the air since it's Cd*A is larger relative to it's weight, so if it catches big dust... it already cought the small dust.

This is the whole idea behind dust extraction for chiseling (See Bosch GDE Max); all the nasty small dust is extracted, all the big chunks still fall down.

It is your health you are talking about, I would want proof if I was using one but you seem very sure of your facts. It is certainly contrary to all the available information I am aware of from many years of being involved in advising and selling dust extraction equipment for WW's.

 

[Coen]

A lot of comment here about dust collection, the big stuff we see is not the problem it is the invisible stuff that is the problem. Has anyone got a dust meter and can run tests using a Kapex for >2.5 micron sized dust particles for say 5 minutes of cutting? let's see how good the Festool system is because I have never seen any proof of the dust extraction performance for invisible dust. I will ask this question elsewhere and see if I can find someone to also do a test. Everyone comments on how the Kapex system picks up the visible stuff but a broom will do the same thing and apart from the mess created the big stuff is not dangerous to our health.

Small stuff is even easier carried with the air since it's Cd*A is larger relative to it's weight, so if it catches big dust... it already cought the small dust.

This is the whole idea behind dust extraction for chiseling (See Bosch GDE Max); all the nasty small dust is extracted, all the big chunks still fall down.

It is your health you are talking about, I would want proof if I was using one but you seem very sure of your facts. It is certainly contrary to all the available information I am aware of from many years of being involved in advising and selling dust extraction equipment for WW's.

What is WW?

Yes, I'm sure that smaller particles of the same density are easier caught by airflow than bigger particles.  [wink]

 

[semenza]

  ^^^^^  WWs ^^^^    = woodworkers

Seth