LR 32: 16 up and out or 32 up and out?
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NERemodeling
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Grab a beer, sit back and enjoy the show
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-reviews/a-lr32-video/
i think its video 2 where he explains the end stops
John
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-reviews/a-lr32-video/
i think its video 2 where he explains the end stops
John
DrD
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Thanks much!! Just finished 1st video - 16 up and out for shelf holes - ok. Now, is this always true? And, if you use 32 up and out for the shelf pin holes, would you use 16 up and out for the 35mm holes? Just asking. Now back to the next video. Thanks again.
DrD
DrD
ccarrolladams
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The 16 Up and Out is the most frequently used end stop setting. When you skip 2 holes and add the extra 16mm the total is 80mm. That is a very popular reference from the top of the fixed bottom shelf to the center of the first row of drilled pin holes. I some cases although you would not actually place an adjustable shelf that low, it is used for many brands of hinges.
Please note that the 80mm is referenced from the upper surface of the fixed bottom shelf or bottom of the cabinet, not necessarily from the bottom of the side. In conventional cabinet construction the fixed bottom shelf is held with a rabbet or dado, so in practice the end stop is placed on the upper side of the dado or rabbet.
One valid reason for designing cabinets in 32mm increments is so that the end stops can be used in reference to either the top or bottom of the sides. That was a big deal in the original System 32 Standards of circa 1946. The idea was all the sides would be identical and could be turned either way and still fit.
The reality is that when making custom cabinets they are not always the same height. A custom designer must respect the desires of the client, for shorter or taller cabinets. Also on base cabinets the thickness of the counter top must be considered.
Therefore my advice to those new to cabinet making is to design them to work for you and/or the client. Then carefully cut shims such that from either end the 80mm reference will work.
An alternative is to only reference the bottom of the sides. This works so long as you have scraps the same thickness of the sides to keep the Holy Rail from tipping when it is used hanging off the side of a part.
Festool has done the cabinet making industry a good service with the LR 32 equipment. However, since LR 32 can be used in so many ways it is up to each cabinet maker to learn how to accomplish each cabinet part.
As for spacing the cup holes and construction screw holes for hinges, you need to consider the height of doors and the specs of the hinges you will use. By the way, many hinges use 20mm cup holes. In professional cabinet making we use the 20mm cups about 40% of the time, but I am not sure these smaller cups are as commonly available to the DIY customer.
The current end stops do have a 9.5mm setting. That is half of 19mm, a very common European plywood thickness. In Euro frameless cabinet design a popular door is a half-overlap. inset 9.5mm. But to be sure you need to study the specs for the hinges.
Please note that the 80mm is referenced from the upper surface of the fixed bottom shelf or bottom of the cabinet, not necessarily from the bottom of the side. In conventional cabinet construction the fixed bottom shelf is held with a rabbet or dado, so in practice the end stop is placed on the upper side of the dado or rabbet.
One valid reason for designing cabinets in 32mm increments is so that the end stops can be used in reference to either the top or bottom of the sides. That was a big deal in the original System 32 Standards of circa 1946. The idea was all the sides would be identical and could be turned either way and still fit.
The reality is that when making custom cabinets they are not always the same height. A custom designer must respect the desires of the client, for shorter or taller cabinets. Also on base cabinets the thickness of the counter top must be considered.
Therefore my advice to those new to cabinet making is to design them to work for you and/or the client. Then carefully cut shims such that from either end the 80mm reference will work.
An alternative is to only reference the bottom of the sides. This works so long as you have scraps the same thickness of the sides to keep the Holy Rail from tipping when it is used hanging off the side of a part.
Festool has done the cabinet making industry a good service with the LR 32 equipment. However, since LR 32 can be used in so many ways it is up to each cabinet maker to learn how to accomplish each cabinet part.
As for spacing the cup holes and construction screw holes for hinges, you need to consider the height of doors and the specs of the hinges you will use. By the way, many hinges use 20mm cup holes. In professional cabinet making we use the 20mm cups about 40% of the time, but I am not sure these smaller cups are as commonly available to the DIY customer.
The current end stops do have a 9.5mm setting. That is half of 19mm, a very common European plywood thickness. In Euro frameless cabinet design a popular door is a half-overlap. inset 9.5mm. But to be sure you need to study the specs for the hinges.
NERemodeling
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DrD said:
Yes, this essentially centers your hole between the two mounting holes by offsetting the stop by 16mm
Whether 16 up and out is always true.. no that isnt required.. what you should do is pick one setup (atleast per project) and stick with it. ccarrolladams makes some good points as to why 16 is used but explains it best when he says "Festool has done the cabinet making industry a good service with the LR 32 equipment. However, since LR 32 can be used in so many ways it is up to each cabinet maker to learn how to accomplish each cabinet part."
John
sancho57
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Im shooting from the hip here, so if Im incorrect someone please correct me.
16 up and out sets the cabinet side so the shelf pins are divisable by 32mm. So that is why the end stop when attached to the rail you'll notice all the holes are "open on the guide rail.
The 32 up and out is used for drilling the mortise for the door hinge. When you put the end stop on with the 32 up and out you'll notice the first hole half way blocked by the end stop. This positions the guide rail holes so when you mortise the doors it will fit exactly inbetween the holes you drilled at 16 up and out so the hinge will line up with the hinge plate
Ift his makes sense.
16 up and out sets the cabinet side so the shelf pins are divisable by 32mm. So that is why the end stop when attached to the rail you'll notice all the holes are "open on the guide rail.
The 32 up and out is used for drilling the mortise for the door hinge. When you put the end stop on with the 32 up and out you'll notice the first hole half way blocked by the end stop. This positions the guide rail holes so when you mortise the doors it will fit exactly inbetween the holes you drilled at 16 up and out so the hinge will line up with the hinge plate
Ift his makes sense.
erock
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Just as the wise Ccarrolladams has posted. From all the reading I have been doing about the Euro style of cabinets. The hinge plate is normally located
80mm from the top and bottoms of the cabinet box. And the cup hinge on the door is centered at 96mm from the tops and bottoms of the door.
So when 16 up and out is used for the adjustable shelf pins And the hinge plate, you can achieve the 80mm hole location for the hinge plates.
So when 32 up and out is used, it spits the hole locations centering the cup hinges.
When I first played around with the LR32 system I knew I had to center the cup hinge with the hinge plate. So when I looked at the end stops I thought
I had to have 32 up and out to drill the shelf pin holes and holes for the hinge plate. Because in my mind, when dividing 32 gives me 16, so 16 up and out
would be used for the cup hinge holes on the door. But after my test run with some scrap wood, I found that 32 up and out for the shelf pins and hinge
plate did not give me the desired 80mm hole location that I had read about.
I 100% agree with Ccarroladams, it is up to each cabinet maker to learn how to accomplish each cabinet part, because there are a lot of ways to produce
a cabinet. You just have to play around and figure what ways best suite your needs/skills.
Eric
80mm from the top and bottoms of the cabinet box. And the cup hinge on the door is centered at 96mm from the tops and bottoms of the door.
So when 16 up and out is used for the adjustable shelf pins And the hinge plate, you can achieve the 80mm hole location for the hinge plates.
So when 32 up and out is used, it spits the hole locations centering the cup hinges.
When I first played around with the LR32 system I knew I had to center the cup hinge with the hinge plate. So when I looked at the end stops I thought
I had to have 32 up and out to drill the shelf pin holes and holes for the hinge plate. Because in my mind, when dividing 32 gives me 16, so 16 up and out
would be used for the cup hinge holes on the door. But after my test run with some scrap wood, I found that 32 up and out for the shelf pins and hinge
plate did not give me the desired 80mm hole location that I had read about.
I 100% agree with Ccarroladams, it is up to each cabinet maker to learn how to accomplish each cabinet part, because there are a lot of ways to produce
a cabinet. You just have to play around and figure what ways best suite your needs/skills.
Eric
mastercabman
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That's great if you want your doors to line up with the bottom of the cabinets but most frameless manufactuer makes the doors a little smaller than the box (3mm reveal a top and bottom and sides) so the doors are 6mm smaller than the cabinet.(each way)sancho57 said:
This gives you some room to make minor door adjustment.
So I don't know why anyone would want to use the lr32 to drill the cup hole for the hinges unless you have a small shim to compensate for the 3mm reveal.
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When I use it for upper cabs for shelfs like display I usually do not put first hole until about 12" up. Then skip every other one and then stop about 16-12 " from top. You do not want it to look like a closet organizer for a built in
Now if doing a full length bookcase then maybe 8" up and down from top
If its for your own deal then whatever you like
If for job then realize most people don't want to see a lot of holes and usually once shelves are put in they never move um
Now if doing a full length bookcase then maybe 8" up and down from top
If its for your own deal then whatever you like
If for job then realize most people don't want to see a lot of holes and usually once shelves are put in they never move um
ccarrolladams
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Kreg has a valid point.
Normally you should discuss with the client where to drill shelf pin holes.
My suggestion is to only drill the outer hole 80mm from the top and bottom to locate the body of the hinge.
On base cabinets the current trend is sliding shelves. It is fairly common the slide for the lower shelf could be the one below the hinge body.
Fortunately sliding shelves are hardly ever used on upper cabinets. For those the hot trend for the past couple of years is to replace hinged swinging doors with tilting ones like garage doors. The theory is with tilting doors the clients are less likely to bang their heads.
Normally you should discuss with the client where to drill shelf pin holes.
My suggestion is to only drill the outer hole 80mm from the top and bottom to locate the body of the hinge.
On base cabinets the current trend is sliding shelves. It is fairly common the slide for the lower shelf could be the one below the hinge body.
Fortunately sliding shelves are hardly ever used on upper cabinets. For those the hot trend for the past couple of years is to replace hinged swinging doors with tilting ones like garage doors. The theory is with tilting doors the clients are less likely to bang their heads.
mastercabman
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Same here!honeydokreg said:
I did a job a few years ago(bookshelves) and drilled holes every 32mm
When I was done the homeowner did not like all of those holes I put in.So we end up getting little plastic caps and put them in all of the exposed holes that was not used
