Material for cleats

[ear3]

I'm constructing a long floating shelf that I'll be hanging with wooden cleats worked into the body of the shelf, and my question is: is it better to use 3/4 plywood for the cleats, as opposed to some kind of hardwood, in order to forestall any wood movement that might mess with the leveling of the shelf?  Or does the small size of the cleat (a 1x4 cut in half, maybe 16" long) mean that wood type is not really a factor?

 

[travisj]

I have never done a floating shelf, so take this for what it is worth, but my opinion is that either should work.  I have used 1x clear pine for cleats about 50% of the time in the past and rarely had an issue.  I had one cleat bow slightly, 1/4" in the center over a 4' span, but it still did it's job.  99% of the cleats I have made were to hang some sort of cabinet.  Lately most of my cleats have been made out of 3/4 Baltic Birch ply.  I prefer working with the plywood and I know the stability won't be an issue.

 

[tiralie]

For this purpose I would use a bracket attached to studs and buried in the shelf or metal cleat like a monarch Z clip or similar.
For larger units, I use cabinet grade plywood (low or no voids) with shims to level out against the wall. To take up some of the load, I usually put a square cleat on the bottom as well. I know it's not possible in this case.
Tim

 

[ear3]

Thanks for the replies.  [member=7816]Tim Raleigh[/member] I considered metal cleats, but since I'm attaching to drywall I'm going to be using togglers or snaptoggles, which means the housing for the bolts will sit slightly proud of the wall.  With a wooden cleat I can do a small counterbore on the backside of the cleat hanging on the wall (on the face that will rest against the wall), getting the board fully flush.  But I wouldn't be able to do this with a metal cleat.  Or is there an alternative I'm not considering?

The shelf is going to be long and heavy (essentially a rectangular box made of walnut 10 feet long x 4.5" tall, projecting out 6" from wall), so for maximum hold I just assumed the snaptoggles were the way to go.

 

[rvieceli]

Edward, I have some concerns about using drywall anchors or toggles as the sole means of fixing your project to the wall. To be honest, my concerns might not be valid [eek] but remembering lots of big holes in drywall over the years where anchors and toggles used to be makes me nervous.

I think you would be better served if you can anchor your mounting to studs. If they are metal studs I'd be more comfortable if you installed blocking between them.

 

[Linbro]

Completely agree with the above.
I assumed that Edward meant that he was fixing to studs, and between them for extra fixing?
We do a lot of floating shelves, and always install steel L brackets in the wall, before plastering. The shelf is built with pockets, to accept the steel protruding from the wall.
A heavy shelf will put a lot of pressure on a split-batten(French cleat), if it's the only fixing.

 

[Cheese]

[member=37411]Edward A Reno III[/member]
What is your anticipated weight that this shelf needs to support, including the weight of the shelf? That would start the conversation...

As [member=3192]rvieceli[/member] mentioned, I'd definitely want to tie back into the studs to support the weight.

 

[tiralie]

The shelf is going to be long and heavy (essentially a rectangular box made of walnut 10 feet long x 4.5" tall, projecting out 6" from wall), so for maximum hold I just assumed the snaptoggles were the way to go.

As others have stated I would not use cleats in wall board to support a shelf of the dimensions you indicate. It's a bit of a gamble, particularly as shelves invariably get overloaded. Either make the shelf as a hollow core with veneer or use metal rods attached to studs or L bracket bolted to metal studs and fit into the hollow core or solid wood block of the shelf.

Or is there an alternative I'm not considering?

If you are using snaptoggles or togglers they actually sit flush to the wall, you would then put the bolt through the hole in the Z clip which projects enough to clear the bolt head. You would need to rebate the back of the shelf to hide the Z clip but you would have to do this with a wooden one as well.

 

[ear3]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] [member=7816]Tim Raleigh[/member] [member=14551]Linbro[/member] Thanks for the warnings.  The hanging mechanism has to be hidden, which is why I'm thinking cleats, either wooden or metal, which I would tie into the metal studs using the snaptoggles.  There's actually not going to be a lot of weight on the shelf itself -- just pictures and mantle piece items.  The weight will all be the shelf, which is going to be 10 feet long and made of walnut (It's hollow, not solid, using 3/4, so total weight of the shelf will be maybe 100 lbs).  Here's a picture of the design I'm reconstructing:

View attachment 1

I thought two longish wooden cleats near either end would be sufficient.  They would be slightly over 16" so I could tie them into two studs each.  I've spec-ed the wall and it's actually pretty flat, so I'm confident I could do the cleats with minimal shimming.  I'm designing the shelf so that the cleat is housed flush with the back.  If I do end up doing z clips instead, I can block it out to account for the smaller thickness of the clips (appx. 3/8 vs. nominal 3/4 for the ply).

[member=37411]Edward A Reno III[/member]
What is your anticipated weight that this shelf needs to support, including the weight of the shelf? That would start the conversation...

As [member=3192]rvieceli[/member] mentioned, I'd definitely want to tie back into the studs to support the weight.

 

[Dbn107]

I recently built a hollow white oak mantle for a client that is pretty similar in design to your shelf.  The dimensions were about 6' wide, 8" tall and 9" deep.  It was mitered all around to look like a solid timber and turned out very nice.  Anyway, I attached a continous plywood french cleat the entire length of the piece that was domino'd and pocket screwed to the top back edge before I glued up the miters.  Making the cleat continuous allows a little more freedom with mounting and hitting studs on the mating piece on the wall.  However, in your case I would think metal may be better option.  If the shelf is only 5 1/2" that only leaves 4" inside dimension at the back of the shelf and you need to allow ~3/4" (assuming 3/4" cleats cutting on a 45) to slip over the mating piece.  That would leave you with about 1 1/2" cleats on both pieces, which may more than adequate but for the weight I think I would look at z bar. 

 

[Cheese]

[member=37411]Edward A Reno III[/member]
Are you actually able to reliably tie into the steel studs with snap toggles? I ask because I have no experience with steel studs and there are several members on the FOG that have better experiences with this situation. My main concern was that you needed to tie back into the existing structure and if the snap toggles work...so be it.

On a more positive note, the shelf itself as you've described it, seems like it woud be maybe 40-50# and the memorabilia displayed on it may add an additional 10-15#. That seems a reasonable load to support given your scope of aspirations. Just a heads-up, that a large vase filled with water and flowers could add 10-15# to the shelf loading. Just more issues to consider.

 

[tiralie]

As long as you drill into the metal studs and make sure the togglers grip the metal you should be fine. Even though it looks straight you will have to shim, otherwise it makes it difficult to hook up the cleat.
Tim

 

[Steve-Rice]

Ed,

I hung this hand tool wall cabinet using two 3/4" plywood french cleats which run with width of the cabinet.  The cleats are screwed into the wall studs.

The cabinet itself is made of figured maple and walnut, with a 3/4" ply back board. The empty cabinet is very heavy by itself and with the addition of all the hand tools has some pretty substantial weight - and the two french cleats seem to be rock solid. So for me, french cleats out of 3/4" ply definitely do the trick.

If your shelf is 10 feet long, you'll have no trouble fiding enough studs to screw into.

Hope this helps,

Steve

 

[Sparktrician]

In this case, I'd go with a full-length french cleat, recessed to make the shelf sit flush to the wall.  The stationary cleat would be securely anchored to studs with Togglers.  I'd also use a screw strip attached to the shelf that fits under the stationary cleat attached to the wall.  Two screws driven through this strip into studs will reasonably assure that the shelf won't be accidentally knocked off the wall. 

 

[ear3]

Thanks for all the replies guys!

 

[Linbro]

There's no comparison between fixing into timber studs, and fixing into metal studs.
I'd still be very wary of fixing a horizontal shelf to them. But, maybe I'm being over cautious.