MFT Upgrade! Incra LS Positioner Incremental System vs. Table Saw Fence on MFT/3

[festoller]

I've been thinking about upgrading my MFT/3 for better repeatability and accurate micro measured cuts. Of course the MFT is pretty accurate, but for many different cuts it takes a lot of time to set up.

Using the MFT Angle Unit on the right side of the Guide Rail for smaller cuts and on the left side for larger cuts is quite helpful, but again set up has to be done manually for different cuts

[attachimg=1]

Now that Incra introduced a metric version of the Incra Positioner I am thinking about mounting it on the MFT/3 (left side of the Guide Rail) or as an extension to have space for larger workpieces to use it as a saw fence and with the MFT extension and router inlay it would later also be a perfect router fence. It?s probably cheaper just to buy the CMS router lift and table top instead of the whole CMS Router Module.

Beside the decision for the size, 25" or 17"  (LS Positioner Incremental Positioning System) or even 32" (TS-LS Table Saw Fence) I need to decide if the

LS25SYS - LS Positioner Incremental Positioning System

[attachimg=2]

or the

LS32-TS - Tabe Saw Fence

[attachimg=3]

is the right choice?

The table saw fence has additional side rails, but from the videos and manuals I would assume the LS Positioner alone would be stable enough for this kind of usage. It could be mounted directly on the MFT or on some extension. Even adding another MFT would be optional.

What do you think Table saw fence or LS Positioner System (Router Fence)?

 

[Corwin]

...
The table saw fence has additional side rails, but from the videos and manuals I would assume the LS Positioner alone would be stable enough for this kind of usage. It could be mounted directly on the MFT or on some extension. Even adding another MFT would be optional.

What do you think Table saw fence or LS Positioner System (Router Fence)?

I have an Imperial version of the LS25 and would suggest the smaller LS17.  Mounting the LS to a MDF base makes it easy to clamp to your MFT.  The table saw fence would just be too much stuff mounted to your table.

 

[mr_hockey]

Have you thought about just using the incra tracks and their stop block???

http://www.incra.com/product_jfc_tracks.htm

Much cheaper yet offers the same repeatability and accuracy. I've been thinking about adding this to my MFT.

FYI I have the incra table saw fence on my unisaw and love it!!! I never user my tape measure...

-jj

 

[CList]

Whoa, that table-saw system is a beast - looks very cool though, not sure why I never noticed it before. It could because it's so big (and pricey) that I just dismissed it out of hand as being unreasonable for the MFT. If you get one and rig it to your MFT I'd love to see it!

I got my system from mhch in this thread:
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/mft-guide-rail-alignment-incra-tracks/
(who may of course been the third or forth person to do the same thing!)
...and put a piece of MDF on top of the far rail with the fence on top of it. The MDF height is such that it goes 1/4" above the height of the table top and acts as a fence UNDER the guide rail and for the entire length of the table. The Incra fence sitting on top of it simply adds the extra height to the fence on the left of the guide rail and also has the adjustable stop.

I simply got this fence and stop - which is WAY cheaper than the ones you're looking at:
http://www.incrementaltools.com/IncraLOCK_Cut_Off_Fence_27_p/miterfnc27.htm

Note, however that my table is custom and is 60" in length, so I have plenty of room on both sides of the rail. I have a special piece of 1/2" ply cut to exactly 8" that I slip under the guide rail to act as a spacer between the stop and the work piece when I want to use the fence stop to measure short cuts.

Would that kind of system be enough for you? I can assure it's very repeatable and dead-on. ...or where you looking for something where the guide rail would somehow attach directly to the fence system? Again, if you go in a different direction I'd love to see/ hear about it.

I also hadn't realized Incra is selling those metric parts. I've been thinking for a while of switching to all metric since almost all of my rules are both metric and imperial, but didn't want to do it because of the 1/32" teeth on the incra stop system - now I have no excuse! I'm sure my carpenter friends will all roll their eyes at my euro-phile ways...

One more thing about that fence I posted - the stop is fixed - which it came with a flip-type of a stop, but the flip-stop only works with the other taller "telescoping" fences - kind of annoying...  ...but at least the knobs to lock and unlock the fence are on the front,while the flip-stop has them on the back, so to change the flip-stop you need go around to the back of the table.

Cheers,
CList

 

[Corwin]

...
One more thing about that fence I posted - the stop is fixed - which it came with a flip-type of a stop, but the flip-stop only works with the other taller "telescoping" fences - kind of annoying...  ...but at least the knobs to lock and unlock the fence are on the front,while the flip-stop has them on the back, so to change the flip-stop you need go around to the back of the table.

Cheers,
CList

To be clear, Incra manufactures two types of incremental track -- standard and flip.  While telescoping versions are available, they also make both type of track in 18", 36" and 52" lengths without telescoping extensions.  They make two types of stops too -- one for each type track.  Either type track/stop setup can be used on your MFT.  Unless joining two or more MFTs deep, I can easily reach and adjust either type stop from the front of the table without having to "go around to the back" -- but, your reach may differ.

The incremental tracks make for nice fence setups, but do not really serve the same function as the LS Positioner.  The LS will work well for both a saw fence and router fence as the OP states.

 

[CList]

Ah, didn't realize the flip came in non-telescoping. I still wish they made a flip-stop with front lock-screws for the standard track... :/ ...seems like an odd omission in a rather large catalog.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[Corwin]

Ah, didn't realize the flip came in non-telescoping. I still wish they made a flip-stop with front lock-screws for the standard track... :/ ...seems like an odd omission in a rather large catalog.

I don't see this as an omission -- a flip stop with front locking screws won't work with the design of the standard track.  However, you can use the Flip Stop backwards on the standard track.  Well, kinda.  You would need to mount the track on a sub-base to account for the taller Flip Stop.  Probably better off just getting the Flip track too. 

 

[CList]

I don't see this as an omission -- a flip stop with front locking screws won't work with the design of the standard track.  However, you can use the Flip Stop backwards on the standard track.  Well, kinda.  You would need to mount the track on a sub-base to account for the taller Flip Stop.  Probably better off just getting the Flip track too. 

Hm, yeah, now that I think about it - I see what you mean, the screws would act as stops! I guess I was thinking of something where everything below the level of the screws could flip up and out of the way so you could slide material less than 1" thick under the body of the stop - not a true flip-stop, kind of goofy and less useful for most people who have the fence at the same as the table, but it'd work well for the stuff I've been doing lately!

Just out of curiosity, you have the LS mounted to your MFT? Is it just mounted at the base (where the release-level is)? Does it need any kind of guides along the parallel edges of the table - like the table saw version uses - or is it small enough that it's able to stay square and stable just from the contact between the carriage and the base?

Thanks,
C

 

[festoller]

Corwin:

Exactly what I think, the only reason for bringing up the Table Saw Fence is possible squareness and stability problems with the LS Positioner and fence alone. From the videos it looks like the LS is pretty rigid, but even a slight flexibility could ruin the whole concept.

Has anyone managed to find a workable solution of connecting the Positioner with the Festool Guide Rail instead of using a spacer under the Festool Guide Rail. Would the Positioner be stable enough to operate completely in the air with the Festool MFT Guide Rail attached? That would be the perfect solution, except for many different cuts in your MFTs surface!

The question is if the LS25SYS or LS17SYS will be rigid and square enough without the side rails of the LS32-TS. If the MFT rail rests on the workpiece, stability during the cut is secured anyway.

Why would you prefer the LS17 (max. 50 mm from the rail) over the LS25 (max. 70 mm from the rail)? How big is the base actually, couldn't find the dimensions anywhere? The LS25 would give you a little bit of extra length, especially if mounted on an extension, or usage with the MFT router extension, but of course the LS17 would probably fit quite flush with the side of the MFT if the rail is setup at approximately 700mm (430 mm + base).

Another solution would be ordering the LS17 or LS25 with one of the fences, but I need to compare prices to the LS17/25SYS package.

mr._hockey:

The Incra Tracks as discussed in another post here on the FOG were my first idea, but it would just slightly improve the Festool system (fence and stop) or other methods with dogs and fences, but the floating scales with various reference points and the lead screw positioning are really what I am looking for.

CList:

Could you post some pictures of your set up? Attaching the Positioner to the guide rail? I haven't really thought that through, because of the many cuts the MFT would suffer and at a certain point squareness/ flushness of the MFT would become an issue.

Thanks for all the help and ideas so far and of course I will post a proper documentation of the process, at least as soon as I have made a decision which Positioner or system to order.

 

[festoller]

Incra showed a 3 part LS Positioner System video on Youtube and at least to me looks like the LS25SYS woud be stable and rigid enough, even without the side rails of the Table Saw Fence.

In the video they show the Incra Router Table Top (27" x 43") which is almost the same size than the MFT/3 (30" x 45"/ take off the rails) and if routing at that speed and detail is possible without moving the fence just a tiny bit, it seems to me I could go with the LS25SYS or LS17SYS. Of course the Festop would be the perfect fit for this system, but shipping to Europe would probably cost more than the top.

Unfortunately the workpiece would be limited to the lenght minus the Positioner base, which is why an extension would be a great solution, but it should be mounted properly. Any ideas, except the Festool MFT-VL for almost 500 EUR. My fist thought was attaching some Multiplex with the guide rail connectors, but they don't fit the MFT slots. I guess it's better to mount the LS directly on the MFT table top. At a certain point or lenght the parallel guide would be the right solution anyway.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

 

[Corwin]

...
Just out of curiosity, you have the LS mounted to your MFT? Is it just mounted at the base (where the release-level is)? Does it need any kind of guides along the parallel edges of the table - like the table saw version uses - or is it small enough that it's able to stay square and stable just from the contact between the carriage and the base?

The base of the LS Positioner (where the release-lever is) can be either bolted directly to a table top, or bolted to a sub base that in turn can be bolted or clamped to the table.  I have my LS bolted to a MDF sub base and I clamp the works in place on my MFT top when needed.  The LS is very stable when the carriage is locked down.  If you are concerned about a hard bump knocking the LS out of position, I would expect that any movement would occur between the base and table top where clamped. 

 

[Corwin]

...
Has anyone managed to find a workable solution of connecting the Positioner with the Festool Guide Rail instead of using a spacer under the Festool Guide Rail. Would the Positioner be stable enough to operate completely in the air with the Festool MFT Guide Rail attached? That would be the perfect solution, except for many different cuts in your MFTs surface!
...

Not exactly sure what you're asking here.  T-track slots in the working face of the fence allow you to mount a replaceable MDF sub-fence or face plate to the fence.  Given that, you could make a sub-fence that would accept the Guide Rail... 

The question is if the LS25SYS or LS17SYS will be rigid and square enough without the side rails of the LS32-TS. If the MFT rail rests on the workpiece, stability during the cut is secured anyway.

Why would you prefer the LS17 (max. 50 mm from the rail) over the LS25 (max. 70 mm from the rail)? How big is the base actually, couldn't find the dimensions anywhere? The LS25 would give you a little bit of extra length, especially if mounted on an extension, or usage with the MFT router extension, but of course the LS17 would probably fit quite flush with the side of the MFT if the rail is setup at approximately 700mm (430 mm + base).

Another solution would be ordering the LS17 or LS25 with one of the fences, but I need to compare prices to the LS17/25SYS package.

I don't think you need the side rails. 

If I have measured correctly, the base of the LS is 158mm by 228mm.

Either size should do fine.  My LS25 is large, and the 17 would have been enough for me.  If mounting to the MFT top, you might use dogs in the table's 20mm holes to locate the LS and to essentially extend the capacity of whichever model you choose -- the table's holes are 96mm on center...

 

[festoller]

Corwin:

Thank's a lot you've really helped with my questions and the decision, I guess I will order the Positioner and not the Table Saw Fence then! Although I need to decide for the 17" or the 25"

How about the additional MDF base height, can that be compensated by lowering the fence, or could you maybe post a photo of your MFT/Positioner set up? I thought about using the Kapex crown molding wing as an MFT extension or the MFT angle unit in order to mount the Positioner. It could be attached with a base mounted to a Festool V style clip. If it's stable enough that would be a great solution for fast set up.

These are the prices for the single Positioner and the package:

The new Metric LS25SYS goes in the UK for GBP 277.00 (inc. VAT 17.5%) and includes: the
25" Positioner (GBP 186.00)
Pro-II Fence (GBP 45.00)
Shop Stop (GBP 25.00)
Right Angle Fixture (GBP 28.00)
Master Ref. Guide & Templates (GBP 22.00)

that's GBP 306,00 compared to GBP 277,00 and will save almost 30, just the Positioner and the Pro Fence is GBP 231.00.

I guess the package makes sense!

 

[Corwin]

How about the additional MDF base height, can that be compensated by lowering the fence...

Yes, I didn't measure, but there is something like 25mm to 30mm of up or down adjustment between the positioner and fence.  And don't forget a user-made sub-fence for the face of the fence -- it can be a little taller and/or lower as needed.

These are the prices for the single Positioner and the package:

The new Metric LS25SYS goes in the UK for GBP 277.00 (inc. VAT 17.5%) and includes: the
25" Positioner (GBP 186.00)
Pro-II Fence (GBP 45.00)
Shop Stop (GBP 25.00)
Right Angle Fixture (GBP 28.00)
Master Ref. Guide & Templates (GBP 22.00)

that's GBP 306,00 compared to GBP 277,00 and will save almost 30, just the Positioner and the Pro Fence is GBP 231.00.

I guess the package makes sense!

Yep, get one of the packages.  You might even get two lengths of the standard track and a couple Shop Stops too, while you're at it...  Great for home-grown parallel guides.

 

[festoller]

Yep, get one of the packages.  You might even get two lengths of the standard track and a couple Shop Stops too, while you're at it...  Great for home-grown parallel guides.

Great idea! Will do so! That will probably also solve my Kapex small cut issue!

Thank's again for all your help, I'll order the LS tomorrow. Photos following.

 

[CList]

That is a very sexy system, and for $300 seems like a really worthwhile addition to a router table. One thing I noticed was the lack of dust in the demo videos - not having a router table (and having never seen one in use outside of videos), I have to ask; do people typically have a vacuum port port installed on the router under the table? Seems like it wouldn't be that effective, and I've seen router table fences with the vacuum port there (like the "Super System" he has at the start of the first video). I set up my MFT to be 5' long specifically so that 2/3 of it would be a "standard" size MFT top, and the remaining 1/3 would be interchangeable with different inserts, one of them I planned on making was a router table insert. I don't have enough need of it yet, but I will slowly work towards it. Watching that guy make those dovetails sure makes me want one I'm torn between getting a nice precision lift vs the cheap Bosch one - but I know in my gut what the answer to that question is!

I'm heading back to the shop now and will take some pics of my fence.

I have to say that the MDF fence starts to feel a little "squishy" around the cut line and the area right of the incra fence. I had to do a McMaster order today, so I dropped $20 on a 6' piece of 1.5" x 3/4" aluminum tubing and I'm going to try using that in place of the MDF and mount the incra fence on that. I'll use the miter saw + aluminum blade to notch the area around where the TS blade will go over it before installing. The remaining section of tube after nothing the top should stay plenty stiff and give me a nice solid feel all the way across the table.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[festoller]

Chris:

I had the same thought and it seems only the Super Fence has the vacuum port built into the fence. Usually Router tables have the port behind the fence, but thats where the Positioner is connected and I don't think you can connect the vacuum to that fence. You'll probably have to connect the vacuum under the table.

Maybe Corwin can shine some light on this issue, the manual does not give any information on that. With the OF1010 I could attach the D27 dust collection, but a lot of dust will probably stay above the table surface. Although even with the D36 hose behind the fence a lot of dust stays on the table anyway.

 

[CList]

Here's a few pics of my MFT. Obviously I don't take too much care with the surface - it's loaded with cuts! That's mainly because I plan on redoing it soon with the Festool-standard 96mm hole spacing - mine's 128mm spacing. The hinge is aluminum and has a little play - which is fine because when the whole thing is properly configured, the left edge of the guide rail presses against the incra fence - removing the play - AND it's square to the fence. That's how I know that I've got it set right, when I feel no play. You'll not the plastic stop-blocks that I keep fixed on the faces of the front and back side rails for the table - they let me take the MDF "sleds" that support the guide rail off, and then return it to the correct place when I put it back on. I still double check it every time I put it back on, but it seems to always be right, so I'm starting to trust this system now! I need to get a little more ruler for the end of the fence. Since the fence starts at near 8" (because of the distance between the right (cutting) edge of the guide rail and the start of the fence, I'm missing 8" of ruler at the left end of the fence - which is rather annoying.

The MDF + fence combination slide off of the rail by loosing the 4 counter-sunk 5/16" bolts along the top. There are 3 on the guiderail side, and one at the other end of the fence - none under the fence. The three on the guide-rail side are to help lock the mdf in place despite the fact that it has a notch in the middle where the saw runs through it. I'm hoping that replacing the mdf with aluminum will make it all more solid and allow me to use only 2 or 3 bolts to hold it on place (though I don't need to take it off very often). When I re-do it with the aluminum, I'll also be adding another one of those plastic stops to the left edge of the top of the guide rail, so that when I take the fence assembly off and on it will always go back to the same place (I measure it now).

Note that I use home-made parallel guides for longer cuts - they work great. I just made them and used them for the first time last week, breaking down 6 sheets of MDF and plywood in the back yard (my MFT is on saw-horses, so very portable). I was surprised at how precise the parallel guides could be when you're just eye-balling the position of the stop. The stops are simply angles of aluminum with a hole drilled for a hex-bolt that rides in the incra "T-Track+" - cost for the pair: $30.

Disclaimer: my shop is usually a little messy, and dirty (it's in the very-unfinished basement of an 1850's townhouse) but rarely this messy! This is after 2 hectic days of working on a couple of built-in cabinets for my wife's store.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[festoller]

Looks more like an OR to me, can't even see the saw dust! I wish I would have that much space in my workshop/ basement!

I have the same Stanley saw horses and love them, although you need two hands to get the extension out.

As Corwing recommended I've ordered a few extra tracks to build a parallel guide like yours or other jigs and fixtures. I'll post photos as soon as the order arrives.

 

[CList]

Looks more like an OR to me, can't even see the saw dust!

LOL!

As Corwing recommended I've ordered a few extra tracks to build a parallel guide like yours or other jigs and fixtures. I'll post photos as soon as the order arrives.

That's a good choice. I also mounted the ttrack+ into the fence for my miter saw and use it as a stop. The way the rule slides in the track to do the initial adjustment is very nice and simple. The one thing I don't like about the ttrack+ and the miter fence I have is the way the rule comes in two pieces - it's so annoying to have to get them to overlap and align correctly, and I have yet to be able to figure out why they would make the rulers in pieces that way.

Cheers,
C