miter saw choices

[jscotlandr]

Ok its time to spend $.  My question is the Kapex or the new Milwaukee 6955-20 12-Inch.  I have a Festool circular saw (the 75) and I am absolutely impressed with it.

My miter saw spends 20% of its time cutting rough lumber, 5% in the shop with misc tasks and 5% furniture related items and 70% doing trim in the field.  Trim work is 80% paint grade and 20% stain grade.  I am a job site neat freak so the Kapex into a Festool Vac seems ideal, BUT $750 for the Milwaukee vs Kapex and the CT22 for $1000 more is going to require some help from you guys in order to justify the money spent.

Clean up savings is a 2.5 year break even so, convenience and finished product quality are going to be the key factors in this decision.  Is using the kapex with the CT22 inside realistic feasible or not (I mean in the customer's home not their garage)?  Are the cuts as good as all the reviews say or is it just a small difference? I am using an Hitachi 10 slider with a chopmaster blade so my cuts are a 6-7 out of 10, my dewalt 12" I would rate at a 5 with factory 80 tooth blade and my dewalt 8" is used only to cut 2x lumber. I will sell the hitachi with TracRac stand and the Dewalt 8" so the Festoll set up is $1300 out of pocket and the milwaukee $325. In other words the Kapex with the CT 22 is 4x the price.

Another piece of info that would help the decision:  how well does the dust collection work with the CT22 hooked up to the TS75? I am using my Fein Vac and getting 50% of the dust, not enough to work inside a home.  Could I trim doors and cut other sheet good cuts inside also?  The last few weeks of single digit temps working in my clients garage have me thinking "warmer is MUCH better"

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks

Scot

 

[Warrior]

I have the kapex and love, love, love it. TS75 too. Cutting inside the home? I dont think so. The dust collection is really good, but not good enough for that. Maybe the Kapex( if you put down a drop) but deffinately not the TS75. I would and have sanded inside with festools though. The Milwaukee is a nice saw too. Does it have a vac hookup?

 

[rnt80]

I'd echo Eiji's thoughts.  I've cut MDF trim inside and the dust was very minimal.  If you're going to be out in the field think about lugging that 12" Milwaukee around all the time.  The Kapex is extremely light and portable.  You're back with thank you after the first couple of trips, I'm not sure you could say the same for teh Milwaukee.

 

[RJNeal]

I love my kapex also. I purchase it because of it's weight and size. The light weight makes it a lot easier to carry. Lugging my 12" around was getting hard on my back. Missing a few of work if I threw my back justified the purchase.  The saw fits in the back seat in my truck [cab and a half]. And it's a great saw.  Rick

 

[mwhafner]

I have the new Milwaukee slider and so far really like it.  I bought it in early September, when they first hit the shelves. 

The stock blade was horrible, so I bought a Tenryu Miter-Pro and am very content.  The cut quality is as good as my old Makita 1013 with a Forrest blade.

The dust collection, when hooked to my CT with a 36mm hose, is on par with what I have seen out of the Kapex (don't own one, just seen the product demos and played around with one at Woodcraft).  It does a great job with fine dust (MDF), but 10 or 15% of larger particles are left behind.  I would guess that it is about 15% more effective than my Makita hooked to the CT22.  The big difference is the small particles, which the Milwaukee seems to handle much more effectively.  When I purchased mine, the unit only came with a dust bag, but it was pretty easy to build an adapter.  They supposedly make one, but I couldn't find one anywhere. 

The miter adjustment is awesome.  You have the digital readout, which so far has proven to be dead-on.  I use a Wixey protractor and the combination is perfect.  The fine adjust dial also works as advertised.  It is a little tricky to get the hang of engaging and disengaging, but is almost second nature now.  The bevel adjustment is also good.  It is tensioned in place as you set the bevel, so you don't have to hold the weight of the saw, and it can be easily reached from the front of the saw.  MUCH better then my Makita.

The built in lights are great, but can trigger the CT22 for a couple of seconds when turned on.  They do a great job illuminating where it matters, and cover both sides of the blade.  No laser, but I probably wouldn't use on if it had it.  My Makita has one, and I rarely use it.

Power is spectacular.  This thing is a beast. 

The fence is large, well designed, and dead square to the table.

Now for the bad - size, weight, adjustment, and accessories. 

It is huge.  It is about 43' deep when extended, which is about 7" or 8" more than my Makita.  I have a small shop, and it takes up a lot of real estate when setup.

The saw weights about 65 pounds, but it is awkward and feels more like 75.  They do have carry handles on either side, top and back.  It also needs to be bolted down, as it tends to want to rock backwards slightly.  I don't think that it would fall, as the rear handle should catch it.

To true-up the miter adjustment is a little too touchy for my liking.  You move the scale, and it is (at least for me) very hard to fine tune.  Once set though, it stays accurate.  I would have had to true-up my Makita three or four times by now.

The accessories are non-existent, at least so far.  It does not ship with a hold-down clamp, which I use often.  I have been told by dealers that the clamps for the older series saw will work and that they will not work.  I am still searching for the definitive answer.  The dust collection port is also supposed to be available, but no one seems to be able to find it.

Overall it is a great saw, and I have really enjoyed the additional capacity.  I have been running 5 3/8" crown, and not having to cut on the flat makes me happy.  The results are perfect.

 

[Jesus Aleman]

Are you using 36 mm (1 1/2) or 27 mm (1 1/4)  hose with the TS75?  Dust collection will improve with the larger diameter hose.

 

[PeterK]

Was using my Makita SCMS last night and switched from the 27mm to the 36mm hose. WOW. What a difference in chip/dust collection that makes. Still don't like my saw and want a Kapex bad but the dust collection sure did improve dramatically with the larger hose. Guess this old duffer will have to try to remember that!
Pete

 

[Programmergeek]

For me I use a miter saw all the time so I went for the best.  Glad I did although after all the hype the Kapex did not live up to my dust collection expectation but that is not the fault of the kapex but more the design of a miter saw, it does the best it can.  For the 25% more investment I would go for the Kapex for the reasons above.  Also look at a bosh or delta rolling stand, that saves my back and prevents my saw from getting banged around.

 

[quijas23]

Ill jump at replying to this; before I begin,  a little back ground; we usually trim out about 4-5 highend homes a year in the Palo Alto/S.F. area. We also (on our own jobs) do some framing etc.
I bought the Kapex and it has immediatly won out the crew in one area;  the weight. Yes I will agree, the milwalkee is a nice machine, Im sure its well made etc., but the minute you have to lug a saw like that, it all goes out the window. We have the 4412 Bosch version and for this very reason we are getting rid of it. Basically Its a two man job to carry a saw like this unless you want to see the doc repeatedly for hernias. I now refuse to buy a saw bigger than a 10" blade (nevermind the accuracy issues)
As for the Kapex, its a great tool, very accurate, although I feel that the miter bed could have been designed a little better than what they did. And (as mentioned repeatedly)you will pay a premium price for the saw, but I truly beleive that it is the best saw on the market.
Hope this helps and just my 2 cents.

 

[tbellemare]

You DEFINITELY want to use a 36 mm hose with the KAPEX.

Festool makes a Turbo Suction Brush, which is basically a carpet type floor cleaner with a rotating brush powered by the moving air of the suction. If you hook it up to a 27 mm hose on a CT 22 or a CT 33 running full speed, the brush turns significantly slower than with a 36 mm hose.

You would think the speed of the air would increase with the smaller hose because of the smaller cross section and the volume of air moving would be the same, so the brush would turn at the same speed, but it doesn't.

If my logic is correct, that tells me that the 27 mm hose is actually slowing the motor of the CT or at least, making the impeller less efficient because of the restriction.

'Long story short, I don't think you're moving nearly as much air from the big CT's unless you use the bigger hose, or a Y-Connector and two hoses.

Tom

 

[glass1]

I own several festools  domino, vacuum, ts 55, planer, etc. I bought the kapex and returned and bought the milwaukee  don't even think twice the milwaukee is better in every way except weight and size  use all the money you save and buy a sawhelper.  dust collection is even better--they are comparable when hooked up to the vac but the mil is better when just using the bag or giant sock.

 

[slb]

I also bought the Milwaukee, and I would second everything mwhafner said.  I looked at a lot of other SCMSs, and was always disappointed at how easy it was to flex from side to side, making accurate cuts a matter of fanatical attention to technique.  The Milwaukee is much stiffer.  I drooled over the Kapex, but just couldn't find the additional $, and so far I am completely happy with the Milwaukee.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I like my Bosch 12" slider, it is on a Bosch Gravity rise stand.  Weight does not bother me with that stand.  When that saw dies, I will put a Kapex on that same stand.

 

[jscotlandr]

A bunch of good points guys.

Weight:  at 45 I am still young but would like to stay healthy and my back gets "grumpy" at the end of the day. 

Quality: I have had some hands on time with the Milwaukee and really like it.  Head flex is a BIG issue with me and the saw seems tight.  If my local Woodcraft would get a Kapex in stock I would love to fiddle with it.

Also thanks for the DC info. I may get the CT22 and use my fein as my dedicated shop tools vac

As of now it looks like the milwaukee with a large gravity rise or wheeled station is what I am leaning towards.  I will wait for more feedback before I make the decision.

I really, really have a tool buying issue - I wish I could buy both.  If I sell my floor sander and edger and . . .

 

[tbellemare]

Where are you, Scott?

I have a Kapex you can try.

Tom

 

[mwhafner]

A bunch of good points guys.

Weight:  at 45 I am still young but would like to stay healthy and my back gets "grumpy" at the end of the day.

Quality: I have had some hands on time with the Milwaukee and really like it.  Head flex is a BIG issue with me and the saw seems tight.  If my local Woodcraft would get a Kapex in stock I would love to fiddle with it.

Also thanks for the DC info. I may get the CT22 and use my fein as my dedicated shop tools vac

As of now it looks like the milwaukee with a large gravity rise or wheeled station is what I am leaning towards.  I will wait for more feedback before I make the decision.

I really, really have a tool buying issue - I wish I could buy both.  If I sell my floor sander and edger and . . .

I am also looking at the Bosch stand.  I have one of the original Rigid MSUVs and shop built extensions.  The setup worked great for both saws, until the stand started falling apart.  It is a little awkward to load in the truck, but otherwise weight isn't really a problem. 

One additional benefit to the Milwaukee is that there are threaded holes on either side, so shop made extensions are easy to mount. 

 

[jscotlandr]

Tom B, I am in Rochester, NY.

Slightly OT: I was at HD looking at the Milwaukee again and they had the DeWalt miter saw stand set up on top of the display rack so that you could not tilt or turn the Milwaukee saw to miter it. They just jambed the saw in there and actually had to tilt it to the right to make it fit. WHY DO I EVEN TRY with HD, LOL?

I used my 12 Dewalt yesterday and said "If the Milwaukee is bigger than this I am doomed"  Even on a stand it is a big saw.  I just landed two nice size trim jobs, one replacing all the clamshell trim with colonial; 15 doors each side and about 400 feet of baseboard.  The other job is an Oak trim and 4'x7' built-in with drawers and two doors plus trim on 5 interior doors and 150 feet of base and shoe.

I think I am going to sell my Hitachi slider and my 8" dewalt and keep the 12" dewalt for rough carpentry.  I will use the the Kapex for trim and shop work.  I will hook up my Fein Vac to the Kapex and skip the CT22 for now.  I used my Festool 75 circ saw to cut some baltic birch ply yesterday and was remnded of the qulity of the Festool products. If the Kapex is anything like that saw in terms of quality buying it is a no brainer.

Thanks for all the feedback.  I will keep you informed of my opinion of the kapex when it arrives.

Scot

 

[GregH]

I have the Milwaukee.  I LOVE IT.  Best saw in its class.  Kapex is great but not twice as great.  I use the Milwaukee on Job sites all the time.  In fact it is on site right now.  The lights come in handy late in the evening.  Dont hesitate GET THIS SAW.  you can find it for 499.99 at Home Depot

Greg

 

[rcher]

I have some Milwaukee tools and I like them.  I looked at the Milwaukee but went with the Kapex.  Lighter, more features and it is part of a system.  Dust collection is an issue for me, and the Kapex wins that hands down.  I cut siding for a tack shed the other day from old barn wood and used the Kapex laid out on a driveway with systainers as supports.  Worked great. That kind of thoughtful engineering is what blows me away about Festool.

 

[mwhafner]

Dust collection is an issue for me, and the Kapex wins that hands down.

I am glad that you like your Kapex, but I don't think this an accurate statement.  As I stated above, I don't own the Kapex but have used one.  The Milwaukee is just as good.