My one complaint about Festool

[SittingElf]

Hmmm....

1. Most retailers are happy to sub a holy rail instead of the standard for about $5.00 when purchasing the TS55. ToolNut made it as easy as simply asking when I purchased the TS55REQ from them. And I kept the standard rail with my purchase of the TSC55 (Cordless) so that I'd have that rail as well. No pain.
I haven't yet purchased the TS75, though it is on my list. The workarounds for dust collection and splinter-free cuts are sufficient for my use. Might not be for a production shop.

2. I agree with those that understand that Festool made the 500 primarily to handle thin stock, especially since it now includes a 4mm cutter. I bought both the 500 and 700 AND the Seneca plates. Now I can do anything!! [big grin]

3. As for batteries. The T15 was around before 18V batteries, and yes you are correct that the 15V systems cannot use the 18V batteries, but the inverse is perfectly usable. Therefore, if you have a 15V unit and then purchase 18V units later, you can still use the 15V batteries in the 18V units...just not the other way round.

4. I had the opportunity to use my new BHC for the first time last week. WOW! SDS drill bit went though the concrete I was faced with like butter! My PDC also got used for the first time, and made a huge difference in screwing though difficult hard wood.

5. I won't let the CXS out of my sight. It is my constant companion!

I say all this because I realize that EVERY tool has the potential for improvements and updates (just like computers), but as far as I'm concerned, I haven't seen or used any kit from any other manufacturer that comes close to the precision engineering, support, and regular improvements that Festool offers. I can't find a reason to bash any of the green machines! [tongue]

Like they say on the airlines when landing..."thank you for flying with us today. We know you have a choice of airlines and we are pleased you chose us. We look forward to serving you again in your future travels". The point: You always have a choice.

Cheers,

Frank

 

[Carl Prentiss]

I'm sorry, I don't buy the line that my TS75 isn't suitable for cutting 19mm material. I've cut plenty of 6mm and it worked quite well. The splinter guard is a piece of plastic. I can't believe that it would be even a minor challenge for festool engineers. I'm very fond of my Festools and wouldn't part with them but I feel the money I've spent with them entitles me to be a little grumpy at their apparent reluctance to produce this part. The suggestion that I need  another saw because the TS75 is not suitable for anything under a 30mm cut is just irritating.

 

[jonny round boy]

The suggestion that I need  another saw because the TS75 is not suitable for anything under a 30mm cut is just irritating.

I didn't say it wasn't suitable, I was saying that's not what it was designed for.

 

[johnleve]

I think that overall Festool takes great care of its customers and this board is a testament to it.  Beyond having satisfied customers they have a fairly large group of what can only be called evangelists.  I like all of my Festool tools and think that most of them are superior to what else is available on the market but that does not make them perfect or Festool immune from constructive criticism.  I think what pleases me most is knowing that they care about their customers and since I think that they demonstrate that to such an extent my personal default position would be to assume that whatever their reasons may be, they are not anti-customer by design.  I would submit the idea that there is a third factor at play outside of engineering and marketing that needs to be considered- manufacturing.

Here is my constructive criticism:

I own a TS75 and would like a proper splinter guard as well as a dust shroud. 

Modifying the splinter guard is easy to do and effective however Festool should be able to easily change the mold to make a proper one, they could even use the revised one for the 55 going forward so it would not even be adding a unique SKU.  Having the attachment location for it and including one in the systainer for the 75 and it not working properly is a mistake that should be rectified.  I am frankly a little disappointed that this has not been fixed; it doesn't shake my belief in Festool tools but in an ideal world it would be fixed by now.

I use my TS75 to straight line rip boards quite often since I don't have a jointer or a better way to do it- in fact I cannot think of why I would ever stop doing it this way.  I try to cut off as little as possible so naturally without a dust shroud chips go flying all over the place.  I did not know there was one for a TS55 and while I had not considered making my own my solution has been to hold a piece of hardboard such that the chips fall as directly to the floor as is possible- I would much rather slap on a shroud and have them end up in my CT without any additional effort.

Here is a wild guess on the holey rails:

While I do not use the LR32 system yet when I purchased my second guide rail I got one with holes in it.  If it is true that the holes have no impact then it seems like it would make sense for Festool to only sell holey rails.  I would assume that since they don't they have good reason to, my guess would be that the manufacturing machinery used to create the rails makes all of them without holes and then to add holes there is a second process which either has lower capacity or costs so much that it makes sense to have the additional SKUs.  Perhaps when they replace that particular machinery then all the rails will be holey rails.

 

[Stephen B]

[size=14pt]

I have enjoyed reading this thread.
Festool do make tools for both specialist and general application.

The BHC illustrates the two main counter points of the discussion - European precision for a specific task compared to some more general applications. One speed, makes it specifically aimed at drilling tiles, concrete and brick. While it will drill wood, that one speed limits it compared to others. Enter the PDC18 Cordless Hammer Drill which provides generalist capability across a range of tasks. However will a PDC drill in concrete as quick and efficiently as the BHC or drive a fine screw in a cabinet like a CXS?

Another generalist is the RO150 because it can aggressively and fine sand, and polish/buff. However if you have other sanders you soon realise that the ROs generalist nature has limits; eg, can it flatten a surface as well and efficiently as an R2 or BS105 in a cradle?

It appears many on the FOG see the TS55REQ as only capable of cutting sheet goods. It will cross and rip cut timber. You just have to use the correct blade, for example the Panther for ripping.

 

[Carl Prentiss]

The suggestion that I need  another saw because the TS75 is not suitable for anything under a 30mm cut is just irritating.

I didn't say it wasn't suitable, I was saying that's not what it was designed for.

Yes you did Jonny. Sorry, I was mostly responding to Kev. (who I hold in the highest esteem)

 

[Kev]

Blimey! [blink]

Think I'll try and clarify a couple of my comments in this thread.

My thoughts on the TS75 and my view of it being "more brutal" for one .. Let's not forget that globally the TS55 outsells the TS75 by ~50 to 1 in most markets. I get the impression this is a changing ratio in the US as the trend is usually to go bigger (not a criticism, just a fact). DC on the TS75 can certainly be improved, but I use mine in a CMS module mostly, a benefit our NA brothers and sisters can't gain presently) and the DC in that application is quite good due to the double hose collection format, etc. It also sheds it's cumbersome nature in the CMS ... I know many say the the TS75 is absolutely fine when using it to cut sheet goods, etc - but you can't deny it's a steak knife compared to a scalpel when you compare the TS75 to the TS55!

Until I committed to buying the TS75 (95% based on using it in the CMS) I was using high quality blades in a very powerful Hitachi 235mm saw. Typically I was only ever cross cutting with it ... for my money I would have been happy to stay with a high capacity "other brand" large saw and also have the TS55 rather than go singularly to the TS75 as a on saw fits all compromise.

Another reason I sat on the fence regarding the TS75 for quite a while was my expectation for an update - in Festool years it's probably overdue for an update .. but that could also be a factor of it's sales volume. Maybe that's a changing trend now or maybe the potential trend change will filter back to Germany from the US. Truthfully I think the US market would gobble up TS75's as is if the CMS-TS was made available !!

On another point ... my snip at Festool bashing. Maybe I should have stuck a smiley on that - I thought the light heartedness was implicit based on the subsequent sentences [sad]

Now something tangental ... I'm surprised we haven't seen some local NA innovation in relation to Festool rails and CMS units - could it be because of legal implications? (I'm thinking generic adaptor plates for non plunging saws to run on Festool rails and generic saw modules that would fit in the CMS).

.. And to top it off, something a bit crazy - I think we'll see something like micro Thorium reactors powering most appliances in the future ... they'd just run effectively for their useable life without connecting "mains" power or batteries. "Connecting" and "charging" will become a thing of the past.

 

[greg mann]

Making holy rails is a significant second operation particularly in the longer sizes. This requires a machining center with great travel. This would drive the cost up even higher and then people would be complaining why do I need these holes if they're only going to add cost? As Frank pointed out it is only a minor charge if you ask for the upgrade when you buy your saw. If a person doesn't understand the evolutionary historical development of the product line it is easy to find flaws in the logic. Example: you allow the fence on the XL to approach the centerline of the cutter by a quarter-inch so that you can center in half-inch material, now you change to a 14 mm bit and forget to move the fence and make plunge. You just milled a 1 mm rabbet into your fence. What were those festool engineers thinking? Tools are usually engineered so they won't damage themselves when used correctly.

 

[P2P]

I thought jbasen's one complaint was going to be there is no Festool dealer in Hailey!

But as a consolation, KB's makes a pretty decent burrito.  [wink]

 

[wow]

Making holy rails is a significant second operation particularly in the longer sizes. This requires a machining center with great travel. This would drive the cost up even higher and then people would be complaining why do I need these holes if they're only going to add cost? As Frank pointed out it is only a minor charge if you ask for the upgrade when you buy your saw.

Greg:

You just neutralized your own argument?!

[poke] [big grin]

If "it is only a minor charge" to upgrade to the holey rails, then it can't be true that "Making holy rails is a significant second operation particularly in the longer sizes. This would drive the cost up even higher" 

The cost difference for the 55" rail is established/published - and it is only $5 more AT RETAIL. And I could easily argue that even THAT difference could be virtually eliminated by eliminating an essentially duplicate SKU. The manufacturing cost can't be different by more than a buck! Eliminate the plain rail from production and you'd likely save that $1 so fast you'd smack yourself for not doing it earlier.

The 95" holey rail isn't quite so easy to compare, since there is no 95" plain rail, but based on the cost of the 106" plain rail it is easy to see that you'd likely be adding about $10-$15 AT RETAIL. 'Raw' manufacturing cost difference is probably more like $2-3.

And that doesn't even address the marketing/loyalty value of putting a 'Holey Rail' in the hands of a new customer who doesn't yet know that they're gonna want the LR-32 system!

I also agree that Festool engineers are really smart and build some great stuff. But this is one case where I believe the engineers should listen to the marketing people.

 

[John H]

As Frank pointed out it is only a minor charge if you ask for the upgrade when you buy your saw.

If it is only a 'minor change'  why would the costs to add the holes be significant?  Also, wouldn't there be some savings it not having to stock two different types of rails, two different sku's etc etc?  Why even have the standard rail at this point?

 

[jonny round boy]

The difference in price (or lack thereof) between the holey/non-holey rails in the US is a marketing decision, not directly related to production costs.

In Europe, there's a 20-25% premium for having the rail with holes in...

 

[Kev]

The difference in price (or lack thereof) between the holey/non-holey rails in the US is a marketing decision, not directly related to production costs.

In Europe, there's a 20-25% premium for having the rail with holes in...

In Oz you're talking $199 v's $240 for the 1400 and $540 v's $665 for the 2400 (2424), so $20% more here too.

 

[jbasen]

I thought jbasen's one complaint was going to be there is no Festool dealer in Hailey!

But as a consolation, KB's makes a pretty decent burrito.  [wink]

[big grin]

Believe it or not, there is now a Festool dealer in Twin Falls!  So I only have to drive 1 1/4 hours for a Festool "fix".  Of course it is always more enjoyable to make that drive on a full stomach after a stop at KB's. [thumbs up]

 

[shed9]

I appreciate the comments on this thread are bore out of real world frustration, however I simply don't buy the idea that Festool product development and supply is lead by marketing. In my opinion, Festool products are engineered by people who actually use them.

 

[Gary in Texas]

I appreciate the comments on this thread are bore out of real world frustration, however I simply don't buy the idea that Festool product development and supply is lead by marketing. In my opinion, Festool products are engineered by people who actually use them.

Hate to pop that bubble, but, market in does drive the business.  Marketing determines the price of the product, with some rationalization from the manufacturing cost side.

Further, marketing does help determine what the customers are wanting, or needing.  That research goes to the technology group (read - engineers) who are then challenged to come up with the next widget, with whatever bells and whistles they can incorporate into the design, thus, you have your new product with its new benefits/design, thereby generating more revenue for the company with new sales....  Which...is determined, once again, by marketing (read - business development or sales team).

Regarding the holey rails, or those without, again this is driven by marketing.  You sell the TS-55 with the standard rail, which is cheaper to manufacture.  If the customer wants the LR32 system, well, we have a product for that!  If Festool approached this on the level many here have voiced, being supply only the holey rails, it would significantly reduce the revenue the company generates by having these "choices".  It would also drive up costs.  Plain and simple, it DOES cost more to make those holey rails.  Nothing unethical about it, as stated, it comes down to choices for customers.

Festool is a system based product line, however, all products do not fit into that category, speaking of the drills now. More products, more choices, more revenue.  Remember also, manufacturing ability, set up, capacity all plays an important role here as well.  Having those different batteries across the range offers the aforementioned choices, but....also spreads out that manufacturing so that for instance, all drills are not relying on a sole manufacturing facility.  Not saying that is the case, but in manufacturing, you do benefit from having several suppliers.  And Festool is providing a "range" of drill options, important within that sector.

Dominos, well, many can argue the adapters with the 700XL can be used to replace the Domino 500, which can be achieved for the most part.  Festool came out with a bigger, beefier, more power domino machine that compliments the 500 series.  It's not either/or, once again the company is offering choices, or...solutions.

No doubt the brand is recognized for its quality, both in design and manufacturing, and it's innovation with those designs, along with marketing, is what ultimately matters on the bottom line.....revenue and profit.......

 

[jbasen]

Years ago when I took a graduate level marketing class, as a consumer I always hated that the definition of price was "perceived value".  Price doesn't have anything to do with cost.  If you can't sell something for a profit then you don't make it.  Once you cross the threshold of profitability the price is based on what consumers are willing to pay based on the value they see in the product.  If you can make it for $1 and people are willing to spend $1,000,000...

Festool is a prime example.  Who knows if it costs more to manufacture a Festool drill than a similar model from another manufacturer. But, Festool certainly charges more because consumers believe the Festool tool is worth more money.  And, of course, it is the job of the marketing department to make people believe that Festool products are worth more  [smile]

 

[Kev]

I appreciate the comments on this thread are bore out of real world frustration, however I simply don't buy the idea that Festool product development and supply is lead by marketing. In my opinion, Festool products are engineered by people who actually use them.

Hate to pop that bubble, but, market in does drive the business.  Marketing determines the price of the product, with some rationalization from the manufacturing cost side.

Further, marketing does help determine what the customers are wanting, or needing.  That research goes to the technology group (read - engineers) who are then challenged to come up with the next widget, with whatever bells and whistles they can incorporate into the design, thus, you have your new product with its new benefits/design, thereby generating more revenue for the company with new sales....  Which...is determined, once again, by marketing (read - business development or sales team).

Regarding the holey rails, or those without, again this is driven by marketing.  You sell the TS-55 with the standard rail, which is cheaper to manufacture.  If the customer wants the LR32 system, well, we have a product for that!  If Festool approached this on the level many here have voiced, being supply only the holey rails, it would significantly reduce the revenue the company generates by having these "choices".  It would also drive up costs.  Plain and simple, it DOES cost more to make those holey rails.  Nothing unethical about it, as stated, it comes down to choices for customers.

Festool is a system based product line, however, all products do not fit into that category, speaking of the drills now. More products, more choices, more revenue.  Remember also, manufacturing ability, set up, capacity all plays an important role here as well.  Having those different batteries across the range offers the aforementioned choices, but....also spreads out that manufacturing so that for instance, all drills are not relying on a sole manufacturing facility.  Not saying that is the case, but in manufacturing, you do benefit from having several suppliers.  And Festool is providing a "range" of drill options, important within that sector.

Dominos, well, many can argue the adapters with the 700XL can be used to replace the Domino 500, which can be achieved for the most part.  Festool came out with a bigger, beefier, more power domino machine that compliments the 500 series.  It's not either/or, once again the company is offering choices, or...solutions.

No doubt the brand is recognized for its quality, both in design and manufacturing, and it's innovation with those designs, along with marketing, is what ultimately matters on the bottom line.....revenue and profit.......

I don't buy into your generic blurb ...

Festool demonstrates clearly that they are driven by product innovation and a set of very high quality and service values. They are obviously not "driven" by marketing. The principles of marketing have to play a part in their go to market strategy and marketing will have a role to play ... but they don't do it from a purely return maximising perspective. "Widgetising" Festool's products and generalising their business model would expect them to switch to a brand profile capitalising strategy that leverages massive scale and lower production costs ... not seeing that happen!

Hope it never does !!!

Not everyone thinks like Gordon Gekko ! [big grin]

 

[VW mick]

I appreciate the comments on this thread are bore out of real world frustration, however I simply don't buy the idea that Festool product development and supply is lead by marketing. In my opinion, Festool products are engineered by people who actually use them.

Hate to pop that bubble, but, market in does drive the business.  Marketing determines the price of the product, with some rationalization from the manufacturing cost side.

Further, marketing does help determine what the customers are wanting, or needing.  That research goes to the technology group (read - engineers) who are then challenged to come up with the next widget, with whatever bells and whistles they can incorporate into the design, thus, you have your new product with its new benefits/design, thereby generating more revenue for the company with new sales....  Which...is determined, once again, by marketing (read - business development or sales team).

Regarding the holey rails, or those without, again this is driven by marketing.  You sell the TS-55 with the standard rail, which is cheaper to manufacture.  If the customer wants the LR32 system, well, we have a product for that!  If Festool approached this on the level many here have voiced, being supply only the holey rails, it would significantly reduce the revenue the company generates by having these "choices".  It would also drive up costs.  Plain and simple, it DOES cost more to make those holey rails.  Nothing unethical about it, as stated, it comes down to choices for customers.

Festool is a system based product line, however, all products do not fit into that category, speaking of the drills now. More products, more choices, more revenue.  Remember also, manufacturing ability, set up, capacity all plays an important role here as well.  Having those different batteries across the range offers the aforementioned choices, but....also spreads out that manufacturing so that for instance, all drills are not relying on a sole manufacturing facility.  Not saying that is the case, but in manufacturing, you do benefit from having several suppliers.  And Festool is providing a "range" of drill options, important within that sector.

Dominos, well, many can argue the adapters with the 700XL can be used to replace the Domino 500, which can be achieved for the most part.  Festool came out with a bigger, beefier, more power domino machine that compliments the 500 series.  It's not either/or, once again the company is offering choices, or...solutions.

No doubt the brand is recognized for its quality, both in design and manufacturing, and it's innovation with those designs, along with marketing, is what ultimately matters on the bottom line.....revenue and profit.......

I don't buy into your generic blurb ...

Festool demonstrates clearly that they are driven by product innovation and a set of very high quality and service values. They are obviously not "driven" by marketing. The principles of marketing have to play a part in their go to market strategy and marketing will have a role to play ... but they don't do it from a purely return maximising perspective. "Widgetising" Festool's products and generalising their business model would expect them to switch to a brand profile capitalising strategy that leverages massive scale and lower production costs ... not seeing that happen!

Hope it never does !!!

Not everyone thinks like Gordon Gekko ! [big grin]

+1

 

[Kev]

Years ago when I took a graduate level marketing class, as a consumer I always hated that the definition of price was "perceived value".  Price doesn't have anything to do with cost.  If you can't sell something for a profit then you don't make it.  Once you cross the threshold of profitability the price is based on what consumers are willing to pay based on the value they see in the product.  If you can make it for $1 and people are willing to spend $1,000,000...

Festool is a prime example.  Who knows if it costs more to manufacture a Festool drill than a similar model from another manufacturer. But, Festool certainly charges more because consumers believe the Festool tool is worth more money.  And, of course, it is the job of the marketing department to make people believe that Festool products are worth more  [smile]

If you're going to throw stuff like that about you're going to need to define "similar". It's pretty obvious that manufacturing a Festool drill costs considerably more than something that's sourced from China.

I'll also go further to say Festool isn't a prime example. Coca Cola IS a prime example.

I'm not saying Festool is a charity, but you need to view this on a spectrum of reality. Businesses have different ethics and values. Some will cover up poisoning a community to avoid a bottom line impact, others will recall a product at their own expense simply because there's a chance that one person could get injured ... oh yes, the "marketing rules the world" people are just going to jump in and say "that's just to avoid a negative market kickback", but I can't change the way people think and draw conclusions.