Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)

[Grasshopper]

Background: 
Wife says: "buy all the tools you want, as long as you can make my house look nice"
I say: Awesome  ;D and before I know it, an order is placed for:  TS55, Kapex, Carvex, RO150, Domino (DF500) set, MFK 700, CMS-VL Router table.  I also found an MFT/3, MFS700, two festool drills at a garage sale, and the OF1400 router on Craigslist. 

With my pile of tools building, and many en route…the wife is looking to cash in  ;D

So for my first project, I plan to build a new kitchen island (I already tore out the old one, so the clock is ticking).

I am new to this world, so your experience is very appreciated.

Most of the plans/tutorials I can find for cabinet construction are not for an exposed back and side like an island.  I've pulled what I can together, and am posting my first iteration.

Ultimately, I plan to build the unit out of two cabinet boxes (a 48" cabinet and a 24" cabinet forming a "T".  Yes, i realize the inside cabinet will be tough to access, this is OK as it will be long term storage).  The idea is to seat 6 people within this limited footprint and our gas range sits in the 48" cabinet.  The granite slab will be 50"x70" with the overhang supported by 3x3 pillars with possibly some aprons for support.  This will all be painted white, so caulk will be my friend)

Here is the sketch:

[attachimg=1]

View of the island from the side other side:

[attachimg=2]

View from bottom (to show cabinet boxes forming a "T"):

[attachimg=3]

My questions are:  what is the best way to join the back corners as they will be exposed?  I plan to build the carcasses out of 3/4" cabinet grade plywood (sides and back).  I will assemble the face frames with either pocket screws or using the domino (attaching to the carcass with the domino).  I plan to attach side and back panels from the same company who will be doing new doors for the rest of my kitchen (I will actually order extra doors to be sized accordingly, and attach to the plywood box as decorative panels.)

I am unsure how to attach the panels (I suppose I could glue, Domino, and clamp). 

Please add your feedback and help me "fill in the blanks".

Below are some options that I have thought of.  Drawings are not to scale and are from the Top Down perspective.  I don't show any stretchers, just the plywood carcass, face frame, and doors/panels for simplicity sake. Also, I am showing one box, but all exposed outside corners would be treated the same way (and I'd just attach the two cabinets together to for the "T" shape).

Option A:
Join the back and side 3/4" Ply with a dado running top to bottom along the inside back of the side panels.  Reveal would allow for panels to sit inset along the back, and to the edges along the sides.  Any area that isn't perfectly flush to be sanded, filled, and painted for a flush transition.

[attachimg=4]

Option B:
Join the back and side 3/4" Ply with a 45 degree miter (cutting sheet goods with the ts55), and using the Domino, glue and clamps for a tight mitered corner.  Add panels to outside either flush to ends or sitting proud of the corners (having the outside corners step down from the panels if that makes sense…not in the picture)
[attachimg=5]

Option C:
Join the back and side 3/4" Ply with a +/- 2x2 of stock that runs like a small pillar.  I'd dado in the plywood and attach using Domino, clamps and glue.  On the outside corner, it would look like a corner stile that continued on sides and back.  The plywood would sit inside the dado.  I could then attach side panels to be flush almost inset from the face frame reveal and 2x2's (exact size tbd), or panels could sit proud of the 2x2 and face frame.

Honorable mentions for achieving a flush outside corner with the sheet goods would be a lock miter, or a dado and rebate.
[attachimg=6]

I am not really sure what door style we are going with yet, but I am trying to plan the carcass build asap.  Below is a snippet that I found online showing an outside corner that is somehow joined very smoothly. 
[attachimg=7]

Not exactly sure the best way to proceed

Your input is appreciated!

 

[grbmds]

Don't know your skills or design background, but a dangerous promise.

 

[Grasshopper]

Don't know your skills or design background, but a dangerous promise.

Skills - - - TBD  (I'm a believer that if you can draw it, you can probably build it.  To date, I've never done any finish carpentry, but I'm a quick study, and totally immerse myself in stuff that interest me.  I'm "all in" now  ;D

Promise ——  [laughing], I have a pretty awesome wife who supports all of my expensive hobbies (from home theater/audio, to cars, motorcycles, photography, and now this.

Any feedback out there for my design options?

 

[erock]

Personally, I would say  DON'T OVER THINK IT.  I over think things  A LOT!

I'M NOT A PRO CABINET MAKER.......please keep that in mind.

But I would build a simple cabinet box.  Build a 2x4 platform for the boxes to sit on.  And make panels to match the doors you plan on using to cover the plywood boxes. 

The post could be 4x4 post to support the weight of the counter tops, covered in materials to match the cabinets.  Using the TS55 for 45* cuts and the domino.

The building process is simple, just make sure you use blue tape for laying out the island for keeping it square with the rest of the layout.

So just off the top of my head that's what I have to say about your project.  Again, I over think the process much of the time, maybe like you are doing, because we are hobbyist.  So please keep that in mind, I'm a hobbyist like you.

Best of luck to you....and your wife rocks...just like mine, because I have a garage full of Festool because she said the same to me

"I don't care, just get it done"  LOL!

Please keep us posted on how your projects goes.

Eric

P.S
sorry...forgot to say that I would choose option "B".  With out the mitered joints for the cabinet box.  But would cover the sides of the cabinet box with panels that matched the doors.  But that's my choice.

 

[mastercabman]

To attach the panels
Just use 1.25" flat head screws

 

[Grasshopper]

Thanks to all the replies so far.  I am probably overthinking this.

I really to appreciate all the feedback so far.

 

[Just F Me]

wow...this is a big first project!

 

[grbmds]

One way to join the corners of the cabinet would using a lock miter joint. However, this may be a little bit tricky to get exactly right. It definitely would require some setup with a specific, good quality, lock miter router bit which it is unlikely you own already. I don't know if that is the best way to do this, but it is one possibility. I'd experiment on smaller pieces with a couple of different possible alternatives to see how they might look. It obviously won't show you a whole cabinet but will give you some feedback on the overall look.

 

[Grasshopper]

Thanks for sharing your feedback.

I was considering the lock miter (option "C" as an 'honorable mention').

I have the Festool CMS-VL router table coming soon, and the OF1400 which I assume would be a good enough setup to do this (you are correct that I don't have a router bit for lock miters.  I'd buy one though if it was the way to go).

I think I will eventually get a lock miter bit, as it looks like an awesome way to make different types of wood boxes.

Have you joined cabinet boxes with a lock miter?  I am curious if this is considered a good way to go.  If there are lock miter fans out there, do you have a bit you'd recommend for my setup (CMS-VL, and OF1400).

One way to join the corners of the cabinet would using a lock miter joint. However, this may be a little bit tricky to get exactly right. It definitely would require some setup with a specific, good quality, lock miter router bit which it is unlikely you own already. I don't know if that is the best way to do this, but it is one possibility. I'd experiment on smaller pieces with a couple of different possible alternatives to see how they might look. It obviously won't show you a whole cabinet but will give you some feedback on the overall look.

 

[grbmds]

Thanks for sharing your feedback.

I was considering the lock miter (option "C" as an 'honorable mention').

I have the Festool CMS-VL router table coming soon, and the OF1400 which I assume would be a good enough setup to do this (you are correct that I don't have a router bit for lock miters.  I'd buy one though if it was the way to go).

I think I will eventually get a lock miter bit, as it looks like an awesome way to make different types of wood boxes.

Have you joined cabinet boxes with a lock miter?  I am curious if this is considered a good way to go.  If there are lock miter fans out there, do you have a bit you'd recommend for my setup (CMS-VL, and OF1400).

One way to join the corners of the cabinet would using a lock miter joint. However, this may be a little bit tricky to get exactly right. It definitely would require some setup with a specific, good quality, lock miter router bit which it is unlikely you own already. I don't know if that is the best way to do this, but it is one possibility. I'd experiment on smaller pieces with a couple of different possible alternatives to see how they might look. It obviously won't show you a whole cabinet but will give you some feedback on the overall look.

I have not yet done the project for which I bought the lock miter bit. Arts & Crafts posts can be made this way to get consistent grain on the sides, but that is hardwood not plywood. I wouldn't see why a lock miter joint wouldn't work though. You might also consider pocket holes inside the cabinet. they would be a little easier although I have never joined mitered corners on plywood with pocket holes/screws. It would seem that you would have to be careful about slippage when doing the actual joining. My experience with pocket holes/screws is that there is always a tiny bit of slippage regardless of how well the two pieces are clamped. Again, I'd try some smaller mock ups with cheap wood and see what happens with a few different methods.

 

[miclee15]

While the building is the fun part, don't under estimate the kitchen planning/design phase.  I just spent 4 months with the Wife and Kitchen designer to plan out the layout of everything from the sink to cook top, we even spent 45 mins discussing where the recycle bins would go best. 

My initial thought is that with a 42" cabinet and a 30" cooktop, you will be very limited with the counter space while cooking.  Only having around 8" on each side is pretty limiting.  Not much room to put a dish to the side when preping a dish or transferring food from a plate to the pan.

The seating also looks very tight.  While the chairs fit, I think the standard for dining tables is to have 24" for each person.    Mock up your design with some boxes or use tape on a countertop and see how the flow is.  If your fine with it then great that is all that matters. 

 

[Grasshopper]

Thanks for your reply.  Good advice.

I actually am replacing the island that was there before.  It was a 48" wide cabinet with the cooktop before (which is what I am planning to replicate), and the prior island had two 24" cabinets butting into the 48", making a small square.  The area next to cook top  could have been bigger, but I am limited by how close the surrounding kitchen counter is.  I think the 48" is as wide as I can go. 

I also agree that seating for 6 is tight .  It is a huge improvement over the original island though  which only seated two in a similar footprint.  (I've thought about pushing the length some, but as it is currently designed, the island slab runs parallel to where my other countertop ends.  I will play with laying out some boxes to see how that fits.

While the building is the fun part, don't under estimate the kitchen planning/design phase.  I just spent 4 months with the Wife and Kitchen designer to plan out the layout of everything from the sink to cook top, we even spent 45 mins discussing where the recycle bins would go best. 

My initial thought is that with a 42" cabinet and a 30" cooktop, you will be very limited with the counter space while cooking.  Only having around 8" on each side is pretty limiting.  Not much room to put a dish to the side when preping a dish or transferring food from a plate to the pan.

The seating also looks very tight.  While the chairs fit, I think the standard for dining tables is to have 24" for each person.    Mock up your design with some boxes or use tape on a countertop and see how the flow is.  If your fine with it then great that is all that matters.

 

[Grasshopper]

As a visual learner, based on initial feedback I wanted to work up a revised plan.  Basically, since the panels will cover up the carcass in its entirety, I suppose a simple joint (butt joint, pocket screws, etc) would suffice since the outside of the carcass won't show (if I use oversized doors as panels).

Based on this, I wanted to post my revised plan for feedback from the cabinet gurus here on the FOG.

See the plan using 3/4" cabinet grade plywood all around.  Face frame is extended to run flush after panels are attached.

[attachimg=3]

For another reference, I snagged a couple pictures of islands online and cropped them close-up on the outside corner.  You can see a seamless transition at the corner. 

Close-up of smooth transitioned outside corner #1
[attachimg=2]

Close-up of smooth transitioned outside corner #2
[attachimg=1]

What is the best way to achieve a smooth transition without any overhang on an island outside corner? 

If I proceed according to the "Plan D", beyond caulk, would wood filler in the small seam, sanded give a perfect surface after painting where you couldn't see there the panel ended and the face frame began on the front outside corners (or where the two panels meet in the back outside corners)?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Grasshopper]

I wanted to post one more picture.  I was at a "Big Box" store, looking at their islands and I noticed something.

Every one of their island's outside corners had the face frame running flush to their side plywood (with a veneer), and back plywood (with a veneer).  The panels sit proud of the plywood face (at the same reveal as the door). 

I've attached a picture from the Box store.

Box store outside corner (note that the carcass is a butt joint, but the door and panel sit proud of the carcass.  This creates a different look, one that I don't like as much.  I prefer to see the face frame and the side panel run flush into each other.  I assume this is more of a custom look, where side panels proud of the carcass is more of a production look):

[attachimg=1]

in contrast to the box store, Flush outside corner (from a picture I found online.  I really prefer this look with the side panel, visually integrated into the corner and not sitting proud as in the Box store example: 

[attachimg=2]

As a recap, what is the best way to achieve the flush outside corner look as appears in the 2nd photo (to appear as though the panel is integrated into the structure of the cabinet).  I assume the way to achieve this is to have the face frame reveal the same size as the panel thickness, and then apply caulk or wood filler if there is any gap.  I am just guessing.

Feedback from those who have experience is appreciated.

 

[JLB builders LLC]

Congrats on the new tools! And way to jump in head first lol

 

[Grasshopper]

Thanks.

Anyone out there with any tips for how to achieve this look?

Congrats on the new tools! And way to jump in head first lol

 

[Grasshopper]

I am hopefully starting my build in a week or so, and thought I'd bump this thread to see if there are any other suggestions for how to achieve seamless outside corners (with 3/4" ply and prefab panels).

Thanks in advance.

 

[tiralie]

suggestions for how to achieve seamless outside corners (with 3/4" ply and prefab panels).

You cannot achieve the kind of corner you want with 3/4" ply and prefab panels. You must make the corner and then finish it.
You could try to a lock miter joint but you will see the joint line unless you repair it with the same finish.
Tim

 

[Grasshopper]

Tim,

Thanks for your feedback.  I do plan to paint the island white, would that help hide the seam (with a little caulk and paint)?

As I am a slow learner, can you elaborate on what you mean that I'd have to make the corner and then finish it?

Thanks again.

suggestions for how to achieve seamless outside corners (with 3/4" ply and prefab panels).

You cannot achieve the kind of corner you want with 3/4" ply and prefab panels. You must make the corner and then finish it.
You could try to a lock miter joint but you will see the joint line unless you repair it with the same finish.
Tim

 

[Billedis]

I use tongue and groove joints on my face frame cabinets and use a raised panel for the ends.  It is strong, and only limiting factor is the drawer guides, making sure you do not screw into the panel so it can float.  Check out some videos on youtube by Marc Sommerfeld for some ideas.  Bill