Need Help Planning Kitchen Island Build (Calling All FOGers)

[Grasshopper]

Bill,

thanks for the suggestion.  I just watched Marc Sommerfeld's methods on his YouTube channel.  Pretty cool way to go.  I have been intimidated by building my own custom panels, but that gave me hope.  (In my mind, I needed to attach a pre-fab panel to a plywood side and back, but with Marc's method, just tongue and groove into the FF.  I wonder if I could still order prefab panels and tongue and groove those into a face frame that I build).

Questions:

-If you are doing a panel on the side and back, do you just tongue and groove it on the outside corner so it is flush?  (If not, how would you deal with the outside corner where the side and back panels meet?)

-How do you attach drawer slides without screwing to the inside of the panel (I assume you just screw into the rails and stiles, but thought I'd ask)?

-I just purchased the Domino, so with that in mind, would you still do pocket joinery on the inside of the face frame or would you join using dominos (same question for attaching dividers and shelves)?

-Are the side and back panels tongue and grooved (without 3/4" plywood anywhere) strong enough to support a 500 lb +/- granite slab?

Thanks again for the suggestion as well as the intro to Marc Sommerfeld's videos.

I use tongue and groove joints on my face frame cabinets and use a raised panel for the ends.  It is strong, and only limiting factor is the drawer guides, making sure you do not screw into the panel so it can float.  Check out some videos on youtube by Marc Sommerfeld for some ideas.  Bill

 

[tiralie]

Thanks for your feedback.  I do plan to paint the island white, would that help hide the seam (with a little caulk and paint)?

Ok, sorry I misunderstood. Yes it will help to hide the seam.

As I am a slow learner, can you elaborate on what you mean that I'd have to make the corner and then finish it?

I plan to attach side and back panels from the same company who will be doing new doors for the rest of my kitchen (I will actually order extra doors to be sized accordingly, and attach to the plywood box as decorative panels.)

You stated initially that you will be buying panels for the island exterior.
In the suggestions following; I am assuming that you will use the custom panels to wrap the plywood carcass vs making the panels part of the carcass. Doing this will avoid having to deal with creating a corner with plywood ends. This is the easiest way to achieve the affect you are looking for. In other words, the panels will cover the plywood carcass vs. integrating the custom commercial panels into the carcass.
Those custom commercial panels will need to be either fitted individually or created as a unit to create the corner(s) (butt joint, miter, lock joint etc.) and attached to the carcass (screwed to the carcass from the inside etc.) and then finished with the appropriate coating (lacquer etc.).

Good luck.
Tim

 

[Grasshopper]

Tim,

Thanks for your thorough response.  I sincerely appreciate your input as a cabinet professional.

My initial plan was to build up the carcass and then attach a prefab panel (thinking that this would be easier).  As I consider this method, I do worry about how difficult it may be to get the panels sized just right to not create problems.

The more I think about it, I am considering building the panels myself and not using plywood at all (except maybe in the center of the panel if I do a shaker style instead).  Is this the better way to go? (I assume a true "custom" island would be made with custom panels and not have a plywood carcass.  Correct me if I am wrong here)

I have the Festool CMS router table shipping now, so I suppose now is as good a time as any to figure out how to cope and stick panels (or use my Domino, which arrived last week if that is the preferred method for making panels).

If I do the panels myself, It seems like many options open up for how I can join the panels into a flush outside corner.

Based on another suggestion in this thread, I am considering tongue and groove joinery, which seems pretty simple.

I found these two videos (pt1&2) on youtube (thanks to the tip here on this thread):

(My one concern is whether or not the 1/4" tongue is really strong enough).  This looks like alignment would be a breeze with this method.

Cabinetmaking Made Easy  (I like these two videos because they actually show side and back panels being constructed):
Part 1-

Part 2-

Perhaps I am overthinking this as I often do, I just want to build something that 10 years from now I will still be proud of.

Thoughts?

You stated initially that you will be buying panels for the island exterior.
In the suggestions following; I am assuming that you will use the custom panels to wrap the plywood carcass vs making the panels part of the carcass. Doing this will avoid having to deal with creating a corner with plywood ends. This is the easiest way to achieve the affect you are looking for. In other words, the panels will cover the plywood carcass vs. integrating the custom commercial panels into the carcass.
Those custom commercial panels will need to be either fitted individually or created as a unit to create the corner(s) (butt joint, miter, lock joint etc.) and attached to the carcass (screwed to the carcass from the inside etc.) and then finished with the appropriate coating (lacquer etc.).

Good luck.
Tim

 

[Billedis]

Bill,

thanks for the suggestion.  I just watched Marc Sommerfeld's methods on his YouTube channel.  Pretty cool way to go.  I have been intimidated by building my own custom panels, but that gave me hope.  (In my mind, I needed to attach a pre-fab panel to a plywood side and back, but with Marc's method, just tongue and groove into the FF.  I wonder if I could still order prefab panels and tongue and groove those into a face frame that I build).

If you are buying door panels, no they would not be large enough.  If the prefab panels are custom sized, then yes you could use these, but you would need to have them made 1/4 inch wider due to the tongue.
Questions:

-If you are doing a panel on the side and back, do you just tongue and groove it on the outside corner so it is flush?  (If not, how would you deal with the outside corner where the side and back panels meet?)

If you are having exposed back as well as front, then you can either build a complete back raised panel and tongue and groove it.  If you are going to have doors and drawers on the back, then you will use another face frame and tongue into the face frame groove.

-How do you attach drawer slides without screwing to the inside of the panel (I assume you just screw into the rails and stiles, but thought I'd ask)?

you have the front, middle and rear stiles to screw into.

-I just purchased the Domino, so with that in mind, would you still do pocket joinery on the inside of the face frame or would you join using dominos (same question for attaching dividers and shelves)?

Since I do not have a domino I use pocket screws, but from what I have seen here you could use the dominos, but would have to make sure they would not fill the groove.

-Are the side and back panels tongue and grooved (without 3/4" plywood anywhere) strong enough to support a 500 lb +/- granite slab?

You will have no problem with strength as your rails, stiles, and panels are all made from 3/4 inch wood, so probably as strong as ply.

Thanks again for the suggestion as well as the intro to Marc Sommerfeld's videos.

You are welcome.  I purchased his router table system about 5 years ago and it certainly has changed the way I make my cabinets now.  With the matched height bits for rails, stiles, panels, it makes raised panel cabinetry achievable for hobbyists like me.

Bill

I use tongue and groove joints on my face frame cabinets and use a raised panel for the ends.  It is strong, and only limiting factor is the drawer guides, making sure you do not screw into the panel so it can float.  Check out some videos on youtube by Marc Sommerfeld for some ideas.  Bill

 

[tiralie]

I do worry about how difficult it may be to get the panels sized just right to not create problems.

If you are measuring from your carcass to order the panels, a good quality supplier will make it to your specifications.

The more I think about it, I am considering building the panels myself and not using plywood at all (except maybe in the center of the panel if I do a shaker style instead).  Is this the better way to go? (I assume a true "custom" island would be made with custom panels and not have a plywood carcass.  Correct me if I am wrong here)

You really need to build this island (with the panels and profiles etc.) to know if this is a better way in this particular case or not. You seem to be able to use Sketchup so build it virtually first with as much detail as you think is necessary to answer the questions you have and then you will have more experience as to what the advantages or disadvantages are.

I have the Festool CMS router table shipping now, so I suppose now is as good a time as any to figure out how to cope and stick panels (or use my Domino, which arrived last week if that is the preferred method for making panels).

Tools solve problems, you need to figure out (decide) what problems you need to solve first. The only tool anyone cares about when they use my island is whether I am one or not.

If I do the panels myself, It seems like many options open up for how I can join the panels into a flush outside corner.

Ya, you will have more options but you don't need more options. You have gotten a lot of very good options here.  You need to make some decisions and then those decisions will drive others.

(My one concern is whether or not the 1/4" tongue is really strong enough).  This looks like alignment would be a breeze with this method.

A glued 1/4" tongue is plenty strong enough for your purposes. If a car crashes through your kitchen, a 1/4" tongue won't be strong enough....

Perhaps I am over thinking this as I often do

Thinking and planning is good, indecision is not good.
Just don't get impatient with your progress or you will be redoing and wasting a lot of material.

I just want to build something that 10 years from now I will still be proud of.

The future will take care of it self. Are you making an island or a monument? Statistically speaking you won't be living in that house in 10 yrs, the person who buys your house won't like it and will tear it out so I wouldn't worry about it.
Do your best, redo what you feel must be redone.
Tim

 

[Grasshopper]

Thanks for your clarifications Bill.  Responses below in red

Bill,

thanks for the suggestion.  I just watched Marc Sommerfeld's methods on his YouTube channel.  Pretty cool way to go.  I have been intimidated by building my own custom panels, but that gave me hope.  (In my mind, I needed to attach a pre-fab panel to a plywood side and back, but with Marc's method, just tongue and groove into the FF.  I wonder if I could still order prefab panels and tongue and groove those into a face frame that I build).

If you are buying door panels, no they would not be large enough.  If the prefab panels are custom sized, then yes you could use these, but you would need to have them made 1/4 inch wider due to the tongue.

Thank you for the tip.  That makes sense
Questions:

-If you are doing a panel on the side and back, do you just tongue and groove it on the outside corner so it is flush?  (If not, how would you deal with the outside corner where the side and back panels meet?)

If you are having exposed back as well as front, then you can either build a complete back raised panel and tongue and groove it.  If you are going to have doors and drawers on the back, then you will use another face frame and tongue into the face frame groove.

The back will not have doors or drawers.  I am leaning towards building the full sized panel and join with tongue and groove into side panels

-How do you attach drawer slides without screwing to the inside of the panel (I assume you just screw into the rails and stiles, but thought I'd ask)?

you have the front, middle and rear stiles to screw into.

OK, sounds good

-I just purchased the Domino, so with that in mind, would you still do pocket joinery on the inside of the face frame or would you join using dominos (same question for attaching dividers and shelves)?

Since I do not have a domino I use pocket screws, but from what I have seen here you could use the dominos, but would have to make sure they would not fill the groove.

Jury is out if I will do my face frame with the Domino, good tip on watching out for filling the groove

-Are the side and back panels tongue and grooved (without 3/4" plywood anywhere) strong enough to support a 500 lb +/- granite slab?

You will have no problem with strength as your rails, stiles, and panels are all made from 3/4 inch wood, so probably as strong as ply.

That is what I was hoping for.

Thanks again for the suggestion as well as the intro to Marc Sommerfeld's videos.

You are welcome.  I purchased his router table system about 5 years ago and it certainly has changed the way I make my cabinets now.  With the matched height bits for rails, stiles, panels, it makes raised panel cabinetry achievable for hobbyists like me.

Bill

Thanks again Bill.  I'd love to see photos of your projects

I use tongue and groove joints on my face frame cabinets and use a raised panel for the ends.  It is strong, and only limiting factor is the drawer guides, making sure you do not screw into the panel so it can float.  Check out some videos on youtube by Marc Sommerfeld for some ideas.  Bill

 

[Grasshopper]

Tim,

Thanks again for your response.  I really appreciate you taking your time on this thread.  My responses are in bold below:

I do worry about how difficult it may be to get the panels sized just right to not create problems.

If you are measuring from your carcass to order the panels, a good quality supplier will make it to your specifications.

This is good to know.  We hope to pick out cabinet doors out this week, so I can decide if I can build panels vs. order in the same time frame

The more I think about it, I am considering building the panels myself and not using plywood at all (except maybe in the center of the panel if I do a shaker style instead).  Is this the better way to go? (I assume a true "custom" island would be made with custom panels and not have a plywood carcass.  Correct me if I am wrong here)

You really need to build this island (with the panels and profiles etc.) to know if this is a better way in this particular case or not. You seem to be able to use Sketchup so build it virtually first with as much detail as you think is necessary to answer the questions you have and then you will have more experience as to what the advantages or disadvantages are.

I totally agree that before I build I need to model it in Sketchup.  The feedback I have received here on the FOG has been invaluable when it comes from those who have done this many times before and have helped point me in the right direction.  I am close to picking a method and then trying to model it before i make sawdust fly (or suck sawdust up with a CT)

I have the Festool CMS router table shipping now, so I suppose now is as good a time as any to figure out how to cope and stick panels (or use my Domino, which arrived last week if that is the preferred method for making panels).

Tools solve problems, you need to figure out (decide) what problems you need to solve first. The only tool anyone cares about when they use my island is whether I am one or not.

I love this.  I agree wholeheartedly.  In my journey to discover finish carpentry I have probably started backwards.  By getting a slew of tools prior to gaining the appropriate experience. I am racing to learn what my tools are capable of after the fact.  By jumping in the deep end I am hoping that the tools (or better yet, their capabilities) will drive me to do things a different way than I would otherwise.  Sort of like growing into my equipment if that makes sense (I was attracted to the Festool brand in part by a lot of the end-user videos demonstrating the "system" all working together.  This led me to get the "system" and dive in learning how it all works together.  (Also, who can resist when the wife blesses your buying a bunch of cool toys with the caveat that I just have to make her house nice  ;D)

Off topic, but when I got into photography I acquired my equipment organically in an "as needed" basis.  Once I gained enough experience to understand the value of quality components, I sold my entire kit in one swoop and purchased the equipment that made the most sense for me (with a better understanding of what I was getting).  I completely agree that the tool doesn't make the product, and solves problems as you have said. (In fact I am sure that there are many on the FOG that with a hand plane and a sharp rock could probably build a fantastic island.)

Back to your comment, I agree and am reminded of the Ansel Adams quote: "The single most important component of a camera is the twelve inches behind it."  The same could probably be said for the best tool in a man's workshop

If I do the panels myself, It seems like many options open up for how I can join the panels into a flush outside corner.

Ya, you will have more options but you don't need more options. You have gotten a lot of very good options here.  You need to make some decisions and then those decisions will drive others.

You are correct that I have gathered some good options.  After airing the many options here on the forum, it is helpful to a guy like me who hasn't done this before.  I appreciate hearing the feedback that these options are acceptable (and in the opinion/experience of others, which options are the most popular or common)

(My one concern is whether or not the 1/4" tongue is really strong enough).  This looks like alignment would be a breeze with this method.

A glued 1/4" tongue is plenty strong enough for your purposes. If a car crashes through your kitchen, a 1/4" tongue won't be strong enough….

Noted, don't hit the island with a car  [thumbs up]

Perhaps I am over thinking this as I often do

Thinking and planning is good, indecision is not good.
Just don't get impatient with your progress or you will be redoing and wasting a lot of material.

I have a tendency to 'overanalyze'.  Thanks for the tip.  In reality, I am ready to do this It just helps to hear feedback from professionals and advanced hobbyists alike.  Prior to jumping in, I wanted to make sure my general plan didn't have any fatal flaws in concept

I just want to build something that 10 years from now I will still be proud of.

The future will take care of it self. Are you making an island or a monument? Statistically speaking you won't be living in that house in 10 yrs, the person who buys your house won't like it and will tear it out so I wouldn't worry about it.
Do your best, redo what you feel must be redone.
Tim

I definitely am not seeking an heirloom piece or monument.  What I had meant by this is a few years down the road (when hopefully my skills are improved) I don't want to see obvious flaws that would drive me nuts.  (for example, "wow I wish I hadn't used rubber cement gluing the joints" as an exaggerated example)  We  are definitely in our "forever" house so we are here to stay and I'm hoping changes that we make to the house can stand the test of time and style (and have enough craftsmanship that I won't be totally disappointed by later).  Our style is a blend of craftsman and traditional styles (which have been "cool" for many decades).  If that makes sense.

Thanks again for your feedback!

 

[Linbro]

Hey Grasshopper - only one way to get the look you want, in my opinion. Apply the panels to your ply boxes, mitering/gluing the external corners, re-enforced with biscuits or dominos, and finishing it all as one piece. (As you can see in the second photo, the one you took from online, whatever joint has been used on that corner is visible).
The only other option would be to express the joint, with a shadow line, or some sort of bead.
And, just an observation - avoid filler and/or caulk if you can, don't allow for it in your strategy. Aim for perfect!
Good luck mate, Lincoln.

 

[Grasshopper]

Lincoln,

Thanks for the feedback.  I was in a very nice home and the panels seemed to be as you described.  Decisions, decisions.

My CMS-VL table arrives this week.  [big grin]

Hey Grasshopper - only one way to get the look you want, in my opinion. Apply the panels to your ply boxes, mitering/gluing the external corners, re-enforced with biscuits or dominos, and finishing it all as one piece. (As you can see in the second photo, the one you took from online, whatever joint has been used on that corner is visible).
The only other option would be to express the joint, with a shadow line, or some sort of bead.
And, just an observation - avoid filler and/or caulk if you can, don't allow for it in your strategy. Aim for perfect!
Good luck mate, Lincoln.

 

[Godfather]

You mentioned in one of your previous post that you have no woodworking experience.  I'd suggest working on a smaller project this week while the rest of your equipment comes in.  Basement cabinets, workshop or garage storage, dog house, anything to let some sawdust fly.  Good luck!

 

[WastedP]

I second the notion in the previous post.  Not just for practice working with the new tools, but because as soon as you finish your island you're going to think of three different ways you would build it the next time.

 

[Grasshopper]

Good tip.  I am planning on building some raised panel doors as "tests" once my CMS arrives.  This will hopefully let me enjoy the TS55, MFT/3, CMS, OF1400, RO150 and Domino.

You mentioned in one of your previous post that you have no woodworking experience.  I'd suggest working on a smaller project this week while the rest of your equipment comes in.  Basement cabinets, workshop or garage storage, dog house, anything to let some sawdust fly.  Good luck!

 

[tiralie]

I second the notion in the previous post.

I agree.

...as soon as you finish your island you're going to think of three different ways you would build it the next time.

Thinking of ways to improve never really stops, and you can always think of better ways to do things.
I like 'grasshoppers' enthusiasm.
Tim

Tim

 

[Grasshopper]

OK,  I have decided how I am going to build the cabinet boxes, face frames etc. 

I have two sheets of 3/4" Birch ply begging to be ripped

In order to triple check my measurements, I have laid the main box out using Sketchup (wow, this was very eye opening.  I made several errors making "cuts" and "dados" virtually, glad I did this on the computer first before blowing through some pricy plywood).

Below is the design I am going with:  3/4" ply on sides and back, joined with the Domino every 6 inches glue and clamps, butt joints (iron on edge banding on exposed plywood on the outside back corners).  I plan to run a "nominal" 3/4" wide dado, 3/8" deep along the sides and back panels for the 3/4" bottom shelf. I have some 1x2 poplar ready to be a face frame and plan to join together with dominos and glue (center stile will be 3" wide).  I'll attach the face frame to the box using dominos and glue as well.

I feel like 3/4" back, sides and dadoed in shelf is going to be plenty strong to support a granite slab. 

My question is should I include stretchers?  And if I do add stretchers, would I be OK joining with glue and dominos, or should I rout dadoes and just glue and clamp (see options below):

Here is the final design:

Front
[attachimg=1]

Back showing butt joint
[attachimg=2]

From the top, no stretcher
[attachimg=3]

Stretcher option #1, two lateral stretchers front and back
[attachimg=4]

Support option #2, 4 blocks sitting at 45's in each corner
[attachimg=5]

Thanks again for all your advice leading to this final plan.  I'd appreciate your help regarding "to stretcher or not to stretcher"  (and happy Thanksgiving.  I'm thankful for the FOG  ;D)

 

[WastedP]

It seems like there are a million different ways to build a cabinet box.

A lot of the construction methods you will see when you look at different cabinets are based on controlling costs and speeding up production.  On most face frame cabinets, I see frames dadoed for sides (with rabbeted sides when a flush end is called for) on the cheapest box store cabinets all the way up to true furniture-quality pieces.  I'm of the opinion that if you use dominoes and clamp your frame onto the panes, you will be just fine.  I saw a sample cabinet a guy made where he used no mechanical fasteners to attach a face frame to a particleboard box with a glued butt joint.  He did it to prove the point that if a frame was attached that way and clamped overnight, there was no need for face nailing or angling staples in from the inside.  He was right, it was totally adequate.  It would be hard to take a kid off the street or a temp laborer and get the same strength from that joint, though.  Thus the face frame dadoes for registration and staples or hot glue or whatever to compensate for errors in material sizing.

The cheapest cabinets have plastic corner blocks stapled in, others have 45 degree angle blocks let into dadoes in the sides and frames, others use stretchers from front to back or, occasionally, full tops like a wall cabinet.  I definitely come down on the side of using a stretcher of some sort.

In practice, I like to use a full top for any cabinet, framed or frameless, because I have fewer parts to cut and as long as I cut it square and to the correct size, it will help keep my box square.  It uses more material, but I'm usually okay with that.  Definitely okay with it if it's a cabinet going in my own house.  My penchant for overbuilding has no checks and balances (save for maybe my wallet) when I'm working on personal projects.

3/4" ply will easily support granite (3 cm runs between 30 and 40 lbs per square foot) when the load transfers directly to the floor.  As long as your box doesn't rack it should be fine.  I have seen some amazingly chintzy cabinets hold up stone tops.  Maybe it's luck, but maybe it doesn't take as much strength as it seems like it should to support that weight.  Again, it is amazing what is adequate.  What is adequate for you may be something altogether beefier.

One thing I would definitely suggest is making test pieces after you set up your machines to make sure you're matching the dimensions of your models.  For checking dadoes and rabbets, I find myself using my calipers way more than a rule or a tape.  As I clean out my home shop, I can't believe how many scraps of test pieces I throw out.  Totally worth it in comparison to trashing a $90 sheet of prefinished ply or an ungodly priced scrap of Lumicor.

I'd say, "good luck," but "slow, cautious, and sure" seems more appropriate.

 

[Grasshopper]

Thanks wastedp for the reply. What calipers do you use?

Any other feedback out there for the best top to complete my plan (or no top at all)?

 

[lambeater]

I won't give advice on how to build your island but if you are like me go to www.houzz.com for all the photo's for inspiration you will ever need.

Lambeater

 

[Grasshopper]

Thanks lambeater (love your profile pick. Big Shawn the sheep fan!)

I love Houzz and have tons of ideabooks setup for inspiration.

There is very little info from what I have come up with that addresses stretchers when the sides and back are all 3/4". I'll keep looking.

I won't give advice on how to build your island but if you are like me go to www.houzz.com for all the photo's for inspiration you will ever need.

Lambeater

 

[tiki man]

Hello

I have been building high end custom casework and furniture for a number of years now. Two points on you cabinet. With the face frame construction you will need something on top of the case to support the center of the FF. The corner 45s wont due anything to help the face frame from racking or moving when the doors are swinging.
Also I wouldn't build any case work without a full top. Helps square everything, give support to FF or non FF casework and will give a strong and level support system for countertop materials. 3/4" materials for all sides top and bottom with 1/4 back and 1/2 nailer is  bomb proof.

enjoy the build and show some pics when completed

 

[Grasshopper]

Thanks for your feedback tiki man. How would you join the full top? (Dado and glue, or dominos and simple butt joints?)

The main 48" base would have a cooktop, so if I go with a full top, I'll need to cutout for the top or just 3/4" stretchers front and back( and a full top on the 24" cab)

Great point on supporting the faceframe in the middle.

Hello

I have been building high end custom casework and furniture for a number of years now. Two points on you cabinet. With the face frame construction you will need something on top of the case to support the center of the FF. The corner 45s wont due anything to help the face frame from racking or moving when the doors are swinging.
Also I wouldn't build any case work without a full top. Helps square everything, give support to FF or non FF casework and will give a strong and level support system for countertop materials. 3/4" materials for all sides top and bottom with 1/4 back and 1/2 nailer is  bomb proof.

enjoy the build and show some pics when completed