New "domino killer" dowel guide for drills

[onocoffee]

But mostly, I just love using it and that is good enough,

I think this is the key. Many of us here are not making our living doing woodworking, so the calculus is different. I enjoy using the Domino. I used a friends Domino once and decided that it was worth the expense. If I were into cars, the numbers would be much larger than the Domino (even a used Mondial Cabriolet is now pushing $60K).

I see the Domino Killer videos with all kinds of contraptions to make a Domino style mortise and just don't get it. To a certain extent, I'm lazy - I want it to be easy. The Domino takes patience to learn its ways but delivers. If I had to do the work to get those router and drill things to make the mortise, I would give up on it and learn how to use a chisel.

But I don't think that the woodworkers who prefer doing mortise and tenon by hand are the Domino haters. They tend to be amicable to the Domino (and may have on themselves). It's more of the power tool woodworkers who seem to have the biggest issues - mainly on cost and then spent an inordinate amount of time and mental gymnastics to craft their rationale.

 

[Mini Me]

(My spell checker keeps making dubious “corrections”. It changed “boring jig” to “borking jig”, and it changed “borking” to “nothing”. I had to look up “borking”. If my spell checker is an indication of the direction of A.I., then I worry for our future.)

Borking: to attack or defeat (a nominee or candidate for public office) unfairly through an organized campaign of harsh public criticism or vilification

Turn it off would stop that. I must admit I have never used one so my suggestion is obvious to me.

 

[Packard]

Turn it off would stop that. I must admit I have never used one so my suggestion is obvious to me.

I never turned it on. It just showed up when I got the Firefox search engine. I will google if there are any settings that control that.

 

[Cheese]

If I were into cars, the numbers would be much larger than the Domino (even a used Mondial Cabriolet is now pushing $60K).

Well unfortunately, $60K only gets you in the door... it doesn't get you a seat at the table.

 

[Vondawg]

Yes.. just maintaining can be at the cost of an entry level EV …parts, hard to find, some nonexistent, most pricey.
Ahhh objects of mechanical art… investment grade…in the 90’s the “under dog” Dino 246..40k….look now. I stuck to motorcycle’s lol

 

[Cheese]

Yes.. just maintaining can be at the cost of an entry level EV …parts, hard to find, some nonexistent, most pricey.
Ahhh objects of mechanical art… investment grade…in the 90’s the “under dog” Dino 246..40k….look now. I stuck to motorcycle’s lol

That's funny...I started with motorcycles, switched to cars and after many years I finally realized that I couldn't afford the car I really wanted, so I switched back to bikes. Besides, I can store 4 motorcycles in the space you need for a single car.

 

[Packard]

It depends on what aspect of strength you are trying to achieve. For tensile (pull apart) strength you probably don’t need as many dowels. For racking strength (side to side flexing), you likely need more fasteners.

Surprisingly (to me) was that Confirmats excelled at both. The only downsides that I see are cost and visibility. If they can be hidden, I think they are highly overlooked. No special equipment required.

 

[Packard]

Turn it off would stop that. I must admit I have never used one so my suggestion is obvious to me.

It seems it must be Apple IPad’s spell checker. I just went to that and turned off “auto-correct”. I think it will just highlight suspected errors going forward. I will watch and see. Thanks for the suggestion.

Packard

 

[Leadfoot]

1, how can dowels do the same function as a floating tenon? Maybe that’s why the Trinity uses sloppy holes, multiple floating dowels?

Alignment being out the window.

 

[Mini Me]

Well. Spending money on anything not benefiting your mistress IS wrong. Hail Her Holiness!

The thing is. The practical issue with tools is they actually *can* be justified on merit in most cases. This conflicts with Women being "now" creatures. If you spend $5k on a golfing trip, it is past, it does not matter anymore. But a DOMINO, that they can see on the shelf in the garage, that is here, now, insulting and assaulting Her patience with your 'wasteful' behaviour.

My wife understands my tool buying because she does sort of the same thing. She in her younger years did a 5 year indentured apprenticeship in Dress Making and Design along with Millinery because the apprenticeship wasn't enough for her. Her sewing room is 7 x 10 metres and at last count she has at least 9 sewing and embroidery machines and she uses some of those every day in what has now turned out to be just a hobby for her own enjoyment. We just recently spent $30K renovating her room which I first built about 40 years ago so my spending gets a free pass as far as she is concerned.

 

[onocoffee]

My wife understands my tool buying because she does sort of the same thing. She in her younger years did a 5 year indentured apprenticeship in Dress Making and Design along with Millinery because the apprenticeship wasn't enough for her. Her sewing room is 7 x 10 metres and at last count she has at least 9 sewing and embroidery machines and she uses some of those every day in what has now turned out to be just a hobby for her own enjoyment. We just recently spent $30K renovating her room which I first built about 40 years ago so my spending gets a free pass as far as she is concerned.

I'm presuming there are some Juki machines in that collection? Those are like the Festool of sewing machines. Always wanted to have one (or three) myself!

 

[Packard]

1, how can dowels do the same function as a floating tenon? Maybe that’s why the Trinity uses sloppy holes, multiple floating dowels?

Alignment being out the window.

The Dominoes can get away with sloppy side to side fit, because it benefits from a good fit on both sides. For the glue to make a strong bond, it needs to be in contact with the mating surface. But a sloppy fit on dowels means there the good contact with the mating surface is gone. So dowels need to be accurately sized and as a result, accurately placed.

Rockler’s Beadlock Tenoning jig makes tight tenons and is exceedingly easy to use. But tedious. A minimum of 10 holes per joint,

I built two screen doors and one barn door of similar design using beadlock tenons. Each had two verticle boards and four horizontal. Each joint had two Beadlock tenons. So, 160 holes to drill. An easy job, but tedious. Since that time I have purchased a higher speed (2,500 rpm) and higher torque corded drill which would have cut the job in half. But still, a lot of holes to drill.

But … All the joints are still tight after 8 years of daily use.

I do think the Beadlock tenon makes a stronger joint than dowels, conventional tenons and Dominoes based on the excellent surface contact and the substantial glue area. The video shows him tapping the tenons in with a mallet, and I found that was the only efficient way to seat them, (Linearly ribbed dowels typically have a similarly tight fit.)

Beadlock is now owned by Rockler, I don’t believe that was the case when I bought mine. And it is far more “delux” (and more expensive) now. I paid about $30.00 for my kit. The new basic kit is $90.00, and the fancy version is over $200.00. And still made from blue plastic.

Watch and see how the slow drill really slows down the work:

 

[ChuckS]

My wife understands my tool buying because she does sort of the same thing. She in her younger years did a 5 year indentured apprenticeship in Dress Making and Design along with Millinery because the apprenticeship wasn't enough for her. Her sewing room is 7 x 10 metres and at last count she has at least 9 sewing and embroidery machines and she uses some of those every day in what has now turned out to be just a hobby for her own enjoyment. We just recently spent $30K renovating her room which I first built about 40 years ago so my spending gets a free pass as far as she is concerned.

Whoa. That's a lot of machinery and an impressive spending on a hobby.

And then some people bit_h about a $1500 tag on a domino joiner.

 

[luvmytoolz]

The Dominoes can get away with sloppy side to side fit, because it benefits from a good fit on both sides. For the glue to make a strong bond, it needs to be in contact with the mating surface. But a sloppy fit on dowels means there the good contact with the mating surface is gone. So dowels need to be accurately sized and as a result, accurately placed.

Rockler’s Beadlock Tenoning jig makes tight tenons and is exceedingly easy to use. But tedious. A minimum of 10 holes per joint,

I built two screen doors and one barn door of similar design using beadlock tenons. Each had two verticle boards and four horizontal. Each joint had two Beadlock tenons. So, 160 holes to drill. An easy job, but tedious. Since that time I have purchased a higher speed (2,500 rpm) and higher torque corded drill which would have cut the job in half. But still, a lot of holes to drill.

But … All the joints are still tight after 8 years of daily use.

I do think the Beadlock tenon makes a stronger joint than dowels, conventional tenons and Dominoes based on the excellent surface contact and the substantial glue area. The video shows him tapping the tenons in with a mallet, and I found that was the only efficient way to seat them, (Linearly ribbed dowels typically have a similarly tight fit.)

Beadlock is now owned by Rockler, I don’t believe that was the case when I bought mine. And it is far more “delux” (and more expensive) now. I paid about $30.00 for my kit. The new basic kit is $90.00, and the fancy version is over $200.00. And still made from blue plastic.

Watch and see how the slow drill really slows down the work:

The funny thing is looking at the pic for the video it shows some slop in the fit.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I hate to contradict you, but I must here.

Commercial specifications as well as formal standards are meant to specify minimal acceptable standards, not optimal strength, not optimal costs. Minimal. They do not even seek to ensure a specific joint application being structurally sound. Their point is to give some defence to companies against litigation as long as they meet those minimal standards.

From the damage I have seen, the dowels are stronger than the surrounding material, so it makes sense.
Actually, you are drawing the wrong conclusion here.
Precisely because the dowels are the stronger material, the strength is defined by the area of the dowel interface with the stock. Increase that area (more dowels) while not increasing the likelihood of splitting (far-enough from each other) and you increase the overall strength.
Other aspect is the elastic range of the stock - i.e. how "far" from the dowel is the "active" area of that dowel's "influence" in the stock in a max non-destructive stress scenario. The lower the strength of the material, the smaller this "active" area and the bigger an effect from adding more "effectors"..

I have this from enough experience with breaking down dowelled furniture. Some of which I made. So not just theory /which does align with observation/.

Though it need to be noted that a laminated chipboard joint with 17 dowels on 32mm centres is barely matching the strength of a Baltic Birch joint with 9 dowels on 64mm centres.. So someone setting a 96 mm as a sane minimum sounds absolutely sound to me. Most flat-pack stuff cannot meet even that..

EDIT:
Yes. When I make chipboard stuff I shoot for 30+ year life of it without failure. If I was doing it commercially, I would not care nearly as much.
If I do spend my expensive time on making something for private use, making it half-hearted to save a couple cents and couple minutes on fewer dowels is .. stupid in my view.

I wouldn't consider that a contradiction, more an expansion. The specs are indeed a minimum requirement and I certainly wouldn't suggest that cost of manufacture enters their mind at all.
As far as strength, my point was that when subjected to racking forces, the dowels are not the failure. The base material will delaminate/disintegrate first.
I have had to disassemble to modify, way more than my share of finished cabinets. It can be quite a challenge, depending on which dimension needs to change.

 

[Mini Me]

I'm presuming there are some Juki machines in that collection? Those are like the Festool of sewing machines. Always wanted to have one (or three) myself!

Until recently her love was for Bernina machines but they have fallen behind technically especially for machine embroidery. She was given a Singer treadle with every accessory made for it, I got the cabinet veneer repaired and that has pride of place in the room.

 

[Mini Me]

Whoa. That's a lot of machinery and an impressive spending on a hobby.

And then some people bit_h about a $1500 tag on a domino joiner.

Good machines cost a lot of money, way more than my sliding table saw!

 

[Cheese]

This is a funny turn in the thread...just noting how the kings of the sewing machines have changed drastically over the last 20-30 years. I purchased a Viking many moons ago to produce a shade awning for the dogs to sleep under during the day. My wife loaned it to her daughter to use and 20 years later it's still MIA?
So just thinking...what was cutting edge at some time in the past...Viking, White, Bernina, Husqvarna, Juki, Brothers, Pfaff are all just road kill now?

 

[mino]

I wouldn't consider that a contradiction, more an expansion. The specs are indeed a minimum requirement and I certainly wouldn't suggest that cost of manufacture enters their mind at all.
As far as strength, my point was that when subjected to racking forces, the dowels are not the failure. The base material will delaminate/disintegrate first.
I have had to disassemble to modify, way more than my share of finished cabinets. It can be quite a challenge, depending on which dimension needs to change.

Oh absolutely. And yes, I was mostly concerned about racking strength.
The more dowels /up to a point/ the closer to the maximum possible strength a laminated chipboard joint can give.
I find that with such a weak material this does actually matter - it often makes the difference between flimsy and passable.

The only way to get an even stronger joint is using silicone-based glue on the surface of the joint in addition to the dowels.*) Then the (weak) board may even completely fail near the joint while the joint itself survives. Though impractical for home cabinetry, I used this for some cheap workshop pieces and the resulting structure was impossible to break with a big 7lb hammer - the hammer consistently just made holes in the chipboard instead of separating the joints .. to my shock, to be frank, that piece used silicone glue to protect it against liquids .. I expected it to be weak.

*) Works specifically and only with melamine-laminated chipboard or MDF. The silicone glue 'grabs' the laminated layer and does not let go with shock impacts while dowels provide continuous-load strength to the joint.