New fesBoschtool drills lol

[jbasen]

I would really like Festool to come out with an SDS adapter for their drills. I would be first in line to buy one.

I have a heavy duty, corded, hammer drill but there are times when it would be so much easier for one or two holes to throw an adapter on my T18 and not have to drag out another drill and run an extension cord.

I remember posting a similar request a while back on the Festool wish list. I seem to remember a reply that Festool had tried to make one but had run into issues with the design. Hopefully they can copy what Bosch did and ther aren't any patents to get in the way.

I know Festool likes to be the leader when it comes to engineering but sometimes providing function to users is more important IMHO.  After all Bosch copied all of Festool's other adapters so turn around is fair play  [wink]

 

[tazprime38]

I would buy an sds chuck too but if festool did bring out one it would kill sales for their sds drill. So I don't think they will bother. I would like an offset chuck for my pdc too. Bosch have in my mind have slapped the centrotec in the face with their locking bit connector. That is a winner, no rip off limited to own make bits like centrotec.

 

[pingvinlakrits]

This looks like something I would be willing to try out. It would save some space for me and considering I very seldom drill in hard concrete the hammerchuck would suffice and take up very little space. Even if it would take a little longer to drill a hole or six in hard concrete I would not mind and if I were to drill 10+ holes I would bring a corded one.

I do have the BHC18 which is ok. It does reasonably well with holesaws and I have used it extensively the past few days drilling mixed walls, some very hard. The BHC18 is a nice pairing for the C15 but Bosch 18V would bring a few things to the table I would enjoy: that regular bit holder opens up a wider range for sure... ...and the Bosch grip is excellent for my hands. Bosch also makes the most comfortable impact drill I have tried. Would be a nice pairing indeed.

I seldom use the elbow/angle chuck but I think Bosch made a mistake by adding a drillchuck to the angle chuck - it makes it longer than it needs to be and I think the Festool angle chuck is much better, short and sturdy. It would make a difference if you need to drive a long screw... ...hopefully Bosch will realize this and provide another chuck. They seem like an a la carte offering and are sold "separately".

If bosch would have made a Festool type angle chuck with the same locking bit holder it would have made a home run in my book.
 

 

[jbasen]

I would buy an sds chuck too but if festool did bring out one it would kill sales for their sds drill. So I don't think they will bother. I would like an offset chuck for my pdc too. Bosch have in my mind have slapped the centrotec in the face with their locking bit connector. That is a winner, no rip off limited to own make bits like centrotec.

SDS = NAINA

 

[fshanno]

It's getting complicated. 

There's the new brushless Metabo which has several features like the impulse function.

Now this.  Looks like the spindle is not just a magnetic bit holder but a 1/4" ball detent holder.  That would be huge for me.  How long can I wait? 

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Metabo has a really nice and solid metal drill chuck, great power and a very good locking bit chuck. Having used both Festool and Metabo I think the Metabo chucks are better. If they had been interchangeable I would have replaced my Festool chucks.
The Metabo elbow/angle chuck is same quality as Festool, which is great.
+ Metabo has the unique Puls function.
+ High quality chucks
+ Non Centrotec
- No locking bit chuck directly on the machine.
- No drywall chuck
- Metabo lettering on the machine wears off rapidly.
- Gears sometimes grind switching from low to high and vice versa.

Festool has been around and still has a few perks as well as some pitfalls:
+ Centrotec assortment is pretty large
+ Drywall centrotec chuck that does a good job (I use mine extensively)
+ T-series grip is excellent
- Centrotec is expensive both to invest in and replace
- Does not hold regular bits drill bits securely when mounted directly into the machine
- Not the best drill chuck around (I have the updated one, still not happy)
- C15 grip not as nice as the old C12 grip - slightly bulkier makes it more awkward with gloves on.
- Festool drills are not as reliable as I would like. Three out of four that I have had have developed problems over time (!)
One T-15 burned out while _backing out_ screws. Not huge ones.  Both my C15's sometimes fail to reverse the rotation and continue to drive the drill/screw instead of reverse  [eek] which is right out dangerous standing on a ladder - ask me how I know!  Sending it in to Festool is no use - they "fix it" after first saying there is no problem, then keep the machine for a month waiting for parts before fixing it and then the problem comes back anyway.  This is why I am looking at ditching Festool for Bosch.

Bosch:
+ Fits standard bits/drills directly into the machine securely by permanent locking bit holder - this is how Festool should have done it!
+ SDS rotary hammer attachment - which only Bosch offers. If it works it well it saves space and weight in the bag.
+ Excellent grip with and without gloves.
+ Best range of 18V add on machines out there (out of the brands that have the quick change chuck systems).
- Angle attachment is a drill attachment that is much longer/larger than Festool/Metabo which makes it less attractive and not as useful as the standard angle chuck. Not very smart. 
- No drywall chuck attachment (though they have a slim 18V drywall driver in their line up I am eyeballing)

Fein:
+ Good quality chucks, on par with Metabo.
- No locking bit chuck on the machine.
- Too heavy and bulky - I can't see myself working with one all day. They feel like the old DeWalts in that regard.
- No 18V range of machines that can compete with the other three.

My conclusion is that I will get a combo with the Bosch Flexi Click with the drill chuck, SDS chuck and a GDX 18V impact which handles like a dream and is truly versatile. That would take care of 99% of my tasks. 

I am sticking with the CXS and have the 2,6Ah on order and will use it mainly as a shop driver and at home.  I love the CXS and would not change it for any of the Metabo/Bosch/Makita 10,8V drills.

 

[sae]

Festool did the bit holder right with the Centrotec, in that the holder is the shortest because the chuck basically acts as a sleeve that captures the bit with a second set of bearings, and the bit goes all the way through to the bit holder on the drill.

I have this little guy on the way for my Metabo, but the bit sits on top of the stub, adding about 25mm of unnecessary length.

The Bosch's onboard locking hex is still the best solution for non-Centrotec though.

 

[sae]

(though they have a slim 18V drywall driver in their line up I am eyeballing)

Funny you mention, someone just sent me this, it looks pretty small! The Bosch one we have here is longer, but slimmer.

Full vid:



Looks like they came out w/ a Planex competitor too.  [blink]

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Festool did the bit holder right with the Centrotec, in that the holder is the shortest because the chuck basically acts as a sleeve that captures the bit with a second set of bearings, and the bit goes all the way through to the bit holder on the drill.

I have this little guy on the way for my Metabo, but the bit sits on top of the stub, adding about 25mm of unnecessary length.

The Bosch's onboard locking hex is still the best solution for non-Centrotec though.

Did you not get the "stub" with the Metabo drill? Hmm. On my Metabo I had the option of the non locking hex bitholder on the machine (same as Festool) and the "Stub" was included in the kit. I liked the Stub.

I got word today from Bosch Sweden that the Flexi Click drill is being released April 1st here, and that the SDS chuck will be available around the same time.

Interesting to see the Metabo drywall gun. I haven't seen that one before.

I think that with the current competition being so fierce every major player needs a more or less complete 18V line up - it makes more sense now that the machines are lighter, smaller and more powerful and now that the batteries have more ooomph in them.
I haven't been to keen on Bosch but the last couple of years they have shaped up nicely and I think that the cherries are worth picking in the line up.

My main reason for going Bosch is that I will have my everyday machines as well as the rarely needed but still vital machines all running the same battery. All the machines that are not dependent on attaching a vac are there in the Bosch line up and the rest I have already. 

With the Bosch drywall screwdriver they claim up to 3400 drywall screws on ONE 4Ah battery charge (!) That is plenty enough.  I just don't want the hassle of multiple chargers again, I'd rather add a third battery over time but from experience with my 4,2Ah Festool batteries two are enough even when running multiple machines.

 

[Wuffles]

Festool did the bit holder right with the Centrotec, in that the holder is the shortest because the chuck basically acts as a sleeve that captures the bit with a second set of bearings, and the bit goes all the way through to the bit holder on the drill.

I have this little guy on the way for my Metabo, but the bit sits on top of the stub, adding about 25mm of unnecessary length.

The Bosch's onboard locking hex is still the best solution for non-Centrotec though.

£38?! Unreal. I was quite tempted until I saw that. Is it cheaper elsewhere? It's the one annoying thing about the Metabo driver I have, the hex ALWAYS pulls out.

 

[sae]

Did you not get the "stub" with the Metabo drill? Hmm. On my Metabo I had the option of the non locking hex bitholder on the machine (same as Festool) and the "Stub" was included in the kit. I liked the Stub.

Henrik, there's the stub that's permanently attached to the drill motor like the Festools, but the bit retention isn't great, especially when working with Torx. Basically what Wuffles said. Although, I've haven't tried a proper wire detent in it yet, only the 1/4" ball detent quick change bits, hmm.

£38?! Unreal. I was quite tempted until I saw that. Is it cheaper elsewhere? It's the one annoying thing about the Metabo driver I have, the hex ALWAYS pulls out.

I paid 55 EUR with shipping to the US.  [eek]

That said, it's a really slick bit of kit. One-handed insertion and one-handed removal as well, it just pulls the bit in when you get near it and locks automatically, and spits the bit out when you tug on the collar. The chuck itself is metal as you would expect, as some of their drills are putting out 110 Nm (or do you guys use in-lbs in the UK like us luddites?).

 

[EV]

Nothing will beat cCENTROTEC!!!! [tongue]

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Did you not get the "stub" with the Metabo drill? Hmm. On my Metabo I had the option of the non locking hex bitholder on the machine (same as Festool) and the "Stub" was included in the kit. I liked the Stub.

Henrik, there's the stub that's permanently attached to the drill motor like the Festools, but the bit retention isn't great, especially when working with Torx. Basically what Wuffles said. Although, I've haven't tried a proper wire detent in it yet, only the 1/4" ball detent quick change bits, hmm.

£38?! Unreal. I was quite tempted until I saw that. Is it cheaper elsewhere? It's the one annoying thing about the Metabo driver I have, the hex ALWAYS pulls out.

I paid 55 EUR with shipping to the US.  [eek]

That said, it's a really slick bit of kit. One-handed insertion and one-handed removal as well, it just pulls the bit in when you get near it and locks automatically, and spits the bit out when you tug on the collar. The chuck itself is metal as you would expect, as some of their drills are putting out 110 Nm (or do you guys use in-lbs in the UK like us luddites?).

Ahh, I see. That is very expensive! I had a spare one lying around for quite some time - I could have shipped it out for free. I managed to find someone to give it away to in the end though...

I agree the hex stub in the machine is poor - but the same goes for Festool. It keeps dropping out bits and it can't hold a regular hex drill. That is really bad. Today I sold off most of my Festool drills (still have the C15 and will get the new CXS) and picked up a Bosch GDX 18V and man is that machine comfortable and slick.  And - it holds them bits nicely yessir.  ;D

I also picked up the GBH 18V EC hammer drill which also does (light) chisel so I am quite set for the arrival of the Flexi Click. I picked up a "heavy duty" 1-13mm drill chuck and it holds very secure.

I talked to Bosch Professional Sweden and managed to trickle my way down to someone in the know who called me back after ten minutes after I gave him the model number and the Flexi Click machines are shipping out April 1st in Sweden - no joke.
Drill chuck is included and all other chucks are sold separately and will be priced "fair". No price on the SDS attachment yet though.

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Two bare Bosch 18V Flexiclick (drill chuck included) ordered from the UK.  [tongue]

After some serious consideration I feel confident that I will get by with the Hex locking stub and the drill chuck and that I will get the SDS attachment as soon as it comes out over here, in April. I seldom use the angle attachment and for that I have the CXS.

 

[ali]

Let us know how you get on with it please Henrik. I don't think I'll get to see this new drill until the end of February and will decide between the Bosch, Metabo or the PDC. I do like the Bosch gear that I have but as a company they make it really hard work to buy their stuff. There are always delays on their new models and their dealers/retaillers are nothing more than box shifters who don't really know anything about the product.

I was having a good look at the metabo range yesterday (BTW Metabo and Bosch are tempting as they have a far bigger range of 18v tools than festool) and wonder how much other companies have actually copied Metabo methods (e.g. Quick change attachments, battery guarantee). In that case, this reminds me of the Metabo SB 18 drill driver and I wonder if Bosch will bring out a combi version with the FastClic system (like the metabo BS 18) at some point?

 

[neeleman]

Mafell is going to bring out 2 new 18V drills and 1 smaller 10,8V drill.
The batteries they use are from Metabo, the drill itself is little different. It will be available this spring.
Maybe they also are going to use the different Metabo chucks?
And maybe they are also going to produce a battery powered MT 55cc plunge saw or a P1cc jigsaw with Metabo batteries?

[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Neeleman: wow - a Mafell 18V offering?  [tongue] [tongue] [tongue]
That is seriously cool!  I think I drooled all over the keyboard...

It seems like a nice package and it seems like they have included the most usable add ons. Price in the same league as Festool it seems.

By the looks of it the Mafell offerings are made by - Metabo! I am quite sure of it.

EDIT: looking at a Dutch website it surely is a rebranded Metabo 18V with the very same accessories:
http://mafell-shop.nl/mafell-a-18-m-bl-accu-schroefboormachine

Metabo and Bosch have the most extensive selection today but over here Bosch is better represented and coming from Metabo and Festool drills I find Bosch a good replacement for both. 

Since Mafell and Bosch share some parts/accessories (rails and accessories for circ saws, some made by Bosch and some made by Mafell) one can hope that all Metabo chucks and 18V tools are compatible with the Mafell drill and 18V battery. That would be kind of cool. That means buying a Mafell drill would open up the 18V Metabo range.

I did have some trouble with the Metabo drills being a bit front heavy with the drill on (high quality all metal drill chuck though!) and that sometimes the gear was grinding switching between 1st and 2nd gear so that would make me a little dubious about the Mafell 18V. If it has the same shortcomings I am simply not interested.

Since I mostly use hex bit drills a locking hex bitholder is my number one "want to have" and so far Bosch is the only 18V player that offers it.  However the short stub Metabo locking bit holder was great so that is a plug for Mafell too.

The three things that keep me locked in on the Bosch is:
Locking hex bit holder directly on the machine.
SDS attachment.
Great selection of 18V add on tools.

 

[pingvinlakrits]

So, the Bosch 18V Flexiclick FC2 has arrived. Pictures to follow after a little snack.

First thoughts; built in Malaysia, but so is the GDX which I really like. Fit and finish is good.
The hex bit holder runs with virtually zero wobble which is nice. It locks bits securely in place, all that I have tried.
Light stays on approx five seconds after triggering. No light switch though.
Drill chuck is a German quality (Röhm) chuck which locks on perfectly. I don't mind the plastic collar, it is the hard wearing type. Chuck feels solid.
When drill chuck is off it balances well and feels good in hand.
Compact when chuck is off - always a bonus.

Some negatives:
Grip is fatter than on the GDX - why Bosch, why???
Most people that have handled the GDX have praised the slim and ergonomic grip and I find it truly excellent.
But the FC2 It is sort of like the C15 in the grip - a little too fat for my liking and probably not too good with gloves on. This was an unpleasant surprise for me. My main grip(e) so far.

It is slightly larger than I anticipated. But a professional grade 18V is currently this size across the board. *)
Like most other "quick system" drills it is a bit front heavy with the drill chuck on. It is on par with Festool T18 and Metabo sizewise.
The drill body is short is but quite beefy and the fan blows like a hair dryer at full speed.  I can see myself with a face full of plaster dust after drilling ceiling holes...

No light on/off switch. Small LED (but sufficient for drilling).
No other negatives at this moment.

*) Bosch actually makes a slim version 18V with a 10mm chuck that is as small bodied as the 10,8V models. It is a bit weaker than the other 18V models but still a very nice 18V machine.

 

[sae]

Snack faster!  [scared]

Too bad about the grip. I wonder who will be the first to take a cue from the handgun industry and introduce replaceable, multi-sized grips. Festool, want to step up?

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Ok, here are a few snaps, pardon the quality - I haven't got a camera suited for close ups anymore:

Looking good:

Locking hex bit holder that works great:

Actually a better bit storage than I first thought, easier to fit a hex drill and a bit for fast switching:

Compared to the GDX housing, notice grip difference from the side:

Look at the width difference of the grips!!! The GDX is near perfect, the FC2 blobs out downward:
FC2 on left - GDX on the right. Bosch really dropped the ball on this one...  [crying]
Let me know who I should whip at the design and ergonomics department!

Roughly the same overall length as the CXS with drill chuck attached although the 18V drill towers over the CXS:

So, it seems to me there will NEVER be a drill that I am entirely happy with and that ticks all the boxes:

Ergonomics (grip, size, weight and handling)
Power (handle everything from precision to powah drilling and driving)
Versatility (useful add ons)
Battery life (not a problem anymore, really)
Worklight that can be left on (like on some Panasonic and Bosch GDX)

For build quality, battery life, power and drill chuck the Bosch FC2 drill is an impressive drill. It feels like a "tough" drill and may not be as tactile as the C15 but it runs smooth. It will serve tomorrow with various drilling and screwdriving.

Initial thoughts are mixed - I can't get over the grip. At first I thought I was nitpicking but after comparing the Bosch GDX to the FC2 I don't know what went in to the designers heads. The FC 2 grip will not be suitable for a lot of people wearing gloves and having small to medium sized hands. It goes from being nimble and agile to borderline bulky.